Development Info Dragon Age forum roundup @ Sorcerer's Place

[Keldryn]

Huh? The guy was taking Bioware to task for simplifying their games to appeal to the console crowd, when the console crowd is already buying games with more complicated stat systems in very large numbers.

The decisions as to what elements a game includes should be based on what is appropriate for the game in question, not based on what arbitrary genre it falls into and what its fans expect.

Naivety is *so* cute! It makes me want to pinch your cheeks and make you cookies. Bioware hasn't even been secretive about pushing more streamlined, action-packed, fast-paced systems to appeal to a larger audience.

Yeah, don't be touching my cheeks.

I'm not going to argue that Bioware isn't pushing a more streamlined, fast-paced approach to their games to reach a wider audience. However, that does not mean that every design decision is driven by that first and foremost. A more traditional RPG approach would not have been appropriate for Jade Empire's subject matter. Given the nature of the Star Wars films, a completely turn-based combat system and a take on morality featuring many shades of grey wouldn't have had the right feel.

And the amount of dialogue in KOTOR and Jade Empire is in direct opposition to the "streamline, action-packed, fast-paced" style of gaming. Taking Fallout's game design and dropping it into the Star Wars universe or the Chinese Kung-Fu films-inspired world of Jade Empire would have created a major disconnect between the gameplay and the setting.

But you know what? Not every hardcore gamer likes games with stats management, inventory management, turn-based combat, extensive dialogue trees, and a leisurely pace. Not all PC gamers like that, and plenty of console gamers like slower-paced games. And many gamers are not platform snobs and enjoy good games on any platform.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

A lot of the shit between Padme and Anakin never makes sense, though. You have the scene in the second one where Anakin murders a whole village of Sandpeople, including women and children

They're only sand people....

 

[Keldryn]

I just wanted to say that was a very good post. Great even. Lovely read... Makes the actions in the film make more sense.

Thanks! I appreciate the support. Star Wars is a modern faery tale, with strong definitions of good and evil. It follows the story structures of classical dramas. The music and the visuals -- not so much the special effects, but the cinematography, the lighting, the camera angles, the frame composition -- tell most of the story. The characters are intended to invoke mythical archetypes, and the story deals with the same themes explored in drama and in myths throughout history. If one views the films as just another fantasy or sci-fi story, then there are a lot of things that may make the viewer think "yeah, right." Some fans complain that a lot of things in the films are too coincidental, but that is missing the point -- the plot is important, but the dramatic structure of the story is given even higher priority. For example, Hyperspace travel is at the speed of plot, pure and simple. Space travel takes precisely as long as it needs to in order to serve the dramatic structure of the story.

 

[Keldryn]

Of the devs that are actually interested in what we say, most won't spend much time here, just because we are an angry, bitter, cynical, bunch of fuckers. I'd like to meet the mythical lorebeast with a deep knowledge of rpg games released over the last 25 years, an interest in talking about them, and that isn't an angry, bitter, cynical fucker. The devs themselves only maintain the brittle facade of joy by continuosly dousing themselves in the delusion that they aren't part of the problem (because they've maintained the one core component of those old games ), and their game will be a return to glory.

Pleased to meet you. My name is Chris.

Well, my depth of knowledge of RPGs tends to be more about the late 80s through late 90s. My knowledge of recent games doesn't fare as well because I simply don't have the time to play all of them. But I'm not an angry, bitter, cynical fucker. Most of the time.

 

[Keldryn]

<clap><clap><clap> Now do why the Kessel Run in 12 Parsecs line makes sense!

Ummm... Because Han is a braggart who doesn't know what he's talking about? After Han says that line, Obi-Wan gives him this look of "you're so full of shit." I think the novelization of the film even states something to this effect. It's just Han trying to impress a hick kid and an old man. I've got a friend just like that... he knows everything and I've caught him making up shit because he thought I didn't know. He just says it with enough authority that if you don't know any better, you believe him.

Oh wait, Han made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs because he used flying through or close to black holes to actually shorten the physical space involved. Or whatever load of shit the novels tried to push. Most Star Wars fans annoy the hell out of me, taking everything so literally and having this anal need to explain and rationalize everything. And usually in the most pedantic and unimaginative way conceivable. It was just Han trying to sound smart in front of some naive kid and his grandpa. Nothing more. Always seemed pretty obvious to me that's what he was doing.

Yeah, yeah. I think the majority of people get all that crap, but the way it's done, both in terms of dialogue writing and in terms of acting makes it come off as completely shallow, hollow, and a whole slew of other words ending in "ow".

Eh, I don't know. I've had this conversation too many times for everyone to have "gotten that crap."

Now, if Anakin said to Mace, "Don't kill him! We need to study him!" or even if he said specifically, "Don't kill him! He knows a way to save Padme!", that scene MIGHT have made more sense. But no, he preaches to Mace about being a proper Jedi, then runs off and murders children.

I think he said "I need him" didn't he? I can't remember. However, there is an extremely important event occurring between Anakin cutting off Mace's hand, and running off to murder children. First off, Anakin realizes that he has just started down the road that he can't turn back from -- if he does, he loses everything. Having realized this, Anakin makes the proverbial deal with the devil. He pledges himself, body and soul, to Palpatine's teachings, and you can see in his movements, the way he kneels, the way he speaks, the way his eyes move... he appears to be entranced, and it kinds of reminds me of some depictions of a person experiencing a profoundly religious experiences. He bargains his soul for the power he needs to save Padme, and he allows the Dark Side to come in -- it is intoxicating and hypnotic. In that moment when he kneels before Sidious, he is clearly not acting even remotely normal. Letting the Dark Side take control makes it easier for Anakin to do things that he knows are wrong. It's a pretty clear example of the psychological idea of deindividuation, much like the diminishing feelings of personal responsibility when an individual is part of a group. His actions are no longer entirely his fault, he can blame the Dark Side, he can blame Palpatine -- he can even blame Padme.

It's just not as simple as "okay, I'm evil now, let's go kill some children." There is a lot going on in that scene, but, ironically, considering how much people complain about being spoonfed, it does require some thought to get at everything that is happening.

A lot of the shit between Padme and Anakin never makes sense, though. You have the scene in the second one where Anakin murders a whole village of Sandpeople, including women and children, and goes and confesses to Padme.. And she's not in the least bit shocked. Yes, they killed his mommy, but if you confess to a woman how you murdered an entire village because your estranged mother was killed by people in that village, chances are she's going to freak a teensy bit.

Well, keep in mind that Padme has likely never even seen a Tusken Raider. Before Anakin tells her that they are "animals, and I slaughtered them like animals," Cliegg Lars tells them that Tuskens are "vicious, mindless monsters." Not that it excuses everything, because it doesn't, but the Tuskens are probably quite dehumanized in Padme's mind already. She is clearly horrified by Anakin's confession, but she does care for him, and her sympathy for him is stronger than her revulsion over what he has done. She knew his mother, and she knew him when he was a little boy. And if she has strong feelings for Anakin, she is likely to tell herself "well, they were only vicious, mindless monsters" when trying to rationalize what his anger led him to.

This must be the psychology student in me coming back.

The whole Anakin saga is just pure shit. If Lucas were a good writer, he would have done the entire thing from Obi-Wan's perspective and not shown Anakin so much.

I don't think Anakin's story would have been conveyed very well if he weren't shown as much, particularly in ROTS. But that moment in Empire Strikes Back "No, I am your father" irrevocably changed the structure of the entire saga. It had to be about the rise, fall, and possible redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

Lucas has more undeserved shit dumped on him than pretty much any other public figure that I can think of. With the level of spite shown towards the man and the personal attacks directed his way, you'd think he ran over everybody's dog personally.

 

[bryce777]

Do these stupid forum things even count as news?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I don't think Anakin's story would have been conveyed very well if he weren't shown as much, particularly in ROTS. But that moment in Empire Strikes Back "No, I am your father" irrevocably changed the structure of the entire saga. It had to be about the rise, fall, and possible redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

Lucas has more undeserved shit dumped on him than pretty much any other public figure that I can think of. With the level of spite shown towards the man and the personal attacks directed his way, you'd think he ran over everybody's dog personally.

Lucas is basically a hack. I'm sure at one point, he could write, but each Star Wars movie was progressively worse. The Empire Strikes Back only has a it more merit than the first one just because it was darker and somewhat of a cliff hanger. Of course, it could be a cliff hanger, because they damned well knew that 20th Century Fox was going to make a third one at that point.

It's kind of funny that Obi-Wan, largely because of progressively worse writing each movie, seemed to push Luke closer to the edge than he did with Vader. That's largely because they just shifted, GRINDED gears suddenly with the whole notion that Vader was actually Luke's father. So, instead of noble knight, Obi-Wan is a bit of a douchebag lying to Luke about his instantly changed past. It would have been much better for the character of Obi-Wan if Vader weren't Luke's dad, but somehow Luke's father and Vader had some relationship that ended with sudden betrayal. The idea that Vader and Anakin were the same guy just seemed tossed in for SURPRISE factor rather than something that would have actually made some sense.

Anyway, back to the subject of episode 3. The idea that Anakin and Padme were super hopelessly in love was never, ever done well. It was horribly done in all three movies. The lines were bad. The acting was bad. There was never any real believability to any of it because it just seemed tossed in and written by a complete mental case. L Ron Hubbard could have probably written a better love story with aliens, psychologists, and space ships than what Lucas spewed out between CGI scenes.

The whole prophetic dream of her death to set up why Anakin decided to become Dark Side Boy was just plain dumb. It probably wouldn't have been so bad if he had gone to Obi-Wan with it rather than Palpatine and Obi-Wan scolded him over getting too in tune with his fears.

Of course, the whole idea that Jedi can't be in love is pretty silly considering all the canonized novels that came after the movies. But, hey, Lucas needed a reason for Anakin getting his stupid on, and nothing makes angsty teens dumber than puppy love! In fact, while Lucas was stealing the miracle birth thing from the Bible, he probably should have brushed up on the bits about Ramses and Nefertari or even Sampson and Deliah. Either of those were far better stories about men being led astray by love than what Lucas churned out.

Really, your whole rationalization of the situation as to why Anakin abruptly turns doesn't make sense because the house of cards everything is built upon makes no sense to begin with.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

Maybe it's just nostalgia, but my recollection was that at the time, the Vader-as-father thing worked pretty well and had a decent foundation laid. I mean, heck, the guy's name *means* father, I think it's reasonable to say that Lucas had intended for him to be the father from the beginning. (I'm not sure if you were suggesting that it was a midgame change of plans or just a poorly executed, but planned, twist.)

The early movies are no doubt full of logical holes, but none of them ever bothered me, except for the "strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can imagine." I mean, Obi-Wan went from being a super fighter with mindcontrol powers to a voice in Luke's head who said, "Use the force." Granted, it was at an opportune moment, but geez. He didn't even become a martyr / rallying cry for the rebels or anything.

Vader as Luke's father also had some thematic power for a variety of reasons (the son surpassing the father, healing the father, etc., etc.).

One of the tragedies of the prequels, by the way, is that they create a totally horrible "watch order" question. If some day I want to show the movies to my kids, do I skip the prequels altogether? That seems kind of weird. But watching them first destroys the original trilogy for a host of reasons, from the "long dead religion" down to Vader not knowing the droids and vice versa.

 

[Keldryn]

Lucas is basically a hack. I'm sure at one point, he could write, but each Star Wars movie was progressively worse. The Empire Strikes Back only has a it more merit than the first one just because it was darker and somewhat of a cliff hanger.

Opinion only regarding each film getting progressively worse. I and many others don't share that opinion. Good to know that being "darker" makes a film better though.

It's kind of funny that Obi-Wan, largely because of progressively worse writing each movie, seemed to push Luke closer to the edge than he did with Vader. That's largely because they just shifted, GRINDED gears suddenly with the whole notion that Vader was actually Luke's father.

Yes, it is pretty obvious that Vader was not Luke's father when the first Star Wars was written. At best, it was an idea that Lucas toyed with late in the production. Combining two similar characters into one made for some interesting drama, and that completely changed the nature of the entire story, sequels and prequels.

The idea that Vader and Anakin were the same guy just seemed tossed in for SURPRISE factor rather than something that would have actually made some sense.

Well, a lot of things don't make sense in sight of this revelation... namely "hiding" Luke on the planet his father grew up on and not changing his name. I don't think it was just for the surprise factor alone... this turn of events shifted the saga from a B-movie-inspired "western in space" serial into something that drew much more heavily from myth and legend.

Anyway, back to the subject of episode 3. The idea that Anakin and Padme were super hopelessly in love was never, ever done well. It was horribly done in all three movies. The lines were bad. The acting was bad. There was never any real believability to any of it because it just seemed tossed in and written by a complete mental case. L Ron Hubbard could have probably written a better love story with aliens, psychologists, and space ships than what Lucas spewed out between CGI scenes.

I don't have much trouble buying it. But seriouly, can we lay off with the constant snide personal attacks on Lucas? Did he run over your dog or something? Is it really necessary? Does it add any merit to your argument?

Anyway, I thought the acting was fine... Anakin wasn't supposed to be a smooth-talking ladies man. He was a whiny, sheltered, arrogant teenager experiencing his first crush, and who didn't have the faintest idea how to approach a woman. Somehow, I think there is a lot of him in many Codexers, whether they will admit it or not. She knew he could be trouble, but she was drawn to him anyway. It happens all the time in real life.

The whole prophetic dream of her death to set up why Anakin decided to become Dark Side Boy was just plain dumb. It probably wouldn't have been so bad if he had gone to Obi-Wan with it rather than Palpatine and Obi-Wan scolded him over getting too in tune with his fears.

I don't recall him ever telling Palpatine about his dream. Palpatine sensed or saw that through the Force on his own. And he couldn't really tell Obi-Wan about it because their marriage was supposed to be a secret.

Of course, the whole idea that Jedi can't be in love is pretty silly considering all the canonized novels that came after the movies. But, hey, Lucas needed a reason for Anakin getting his stupid on, and nothing makes angsty teens dumber than puppy love!

Err, that was part of the point. The Jedi had become stagnant and complacent. They were too bound by rules and traditions, and had lost sight of what Qui-Gon called "the living Force." They were losing their ability to see through the Force, and they were so disconnected they couldn't sense the Lord of the Sith sitting right under their noses. The Jedi Order was wrong in so many ways. Anakin's relationships with his mother and with Padme were affected by the forbidding of attachments. He wasn't allowed to return to his mother. He wasn't allowed to have a relationship with Padme. If the Jedi had a more relaxed stance on this issue, then perhaps he would not have been so afraid to lose them. In the end, it is Luke's attachment to his father that allows him to triumph.

One could even argue that the Jedi Order needed to be destroyed and rebuilt, as they had strayed too far from the path and lost sight of what mattered.

In fact, while Lucas was stealing the miracle birth thing from the Bible, he probably should have brushed up on the bits about Ramses and Nefertari or even Sampson and Deliah. Either of those were far better stories about men being led astray by love than what Lucas churned out.

Eh, divine birth doesn't start and end with the Bible. And earlier drafts of the ROTS script explicitly had Palpatine telling Anakin that he was responsible for causing the midichlorians to begin the cell divisions that created him. That was cut, but we do still see Palpatine's lingering gaze as he tells Anakin that Plagueis had the power to "influence the midichlorians to create... life." It's enough of a suggestion and was left deliberately ambiguous. Which I like.

Really, your whole rationalization of the situation as to why Anakin abruptly turns doesn't make sense because the house of cards everything is built upon makes no sense to begin with.

I disagree, and you really didn't provide much support as to how what everything is built upon doesn't make sense. And please stop using loaded words like "rationalization." It sounds dismissive.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yes, it is pretty obvious that Vader was not Luke's father when the first Star Wars was written. At best, it was an idea that Lucas toyed with late in the production. Combining two similar characters into one made for some interesting drama, and that completely changed the nature of the entire story, sequels and prequels.

Unfortunately, the SURPRISE factor wasn't worth the flub ups which needed explaining away from the first movie as well as the course the prequels took.

Well, a lot of things don't make sense in sight of this revelation... namely "hiding" Luke on the planet his father grew up on and not changing his name. I don't think it was just for the surprise factor alone... this turn of events shifted the saga from a B-movie-inspired "western in space" serial into something that drew much more heavily from myth and legend.

Which was really, really dumb. Lucas definitely shouldn't have done Tattooine in Episode 1 because of that. He went for the, "Hey, you guys remember this place?! And LOOK! It's JABBA! Wheeeeeee!" nostalgia tie in with no regard for how dumb that actually was.

But seriouly, can we lay off with the constant snide personal attacks on Lucas? Did he run over your dog or something? Is it really necessary? Does it add any merit to your argument?

Why? You fuckin' him? LEWL!

Anyway, I thought the acting was fine... Anakin wasn't supposed to be a smooth-talking ladies man. He was a whiny, sheltered, arrogant teenager experiencing his first crush, and who didn't have the faintest idea how to approach a woman. Somehow, I think there is a lot of him in many Codexers, whether they will admit it or not. She knew he could be trouble, but she was drawn to him anyway. It happens all the time in real life.

No. No, it doesn't. Educated, strong leader women don't fall for spastic, whiny dorks with angsty, murderous mood swings in real life, especially when they use the shittiest pick up lines ever written.

I don't recall him ever telling Palpatine about his dream. Palpatine sensed or saw that through the Force on his own.

He told Palpatine in one of the first scenes of the movie.

And he couldn't really tell Obi-Wan about it because their marriage was supposed to be a secret.

Which is why it would have made much more sense for him to turn on the Jedi, perhaps? He tells Obi-Wan, because Obi-Wan is his mentor and teacher.. You know, the old, "Hey, I might have screwed up pretty bad, but.." type scenes. Obi-Wan scolds him, tells him they'll need to consult Yoda or something, Anakin stops him and begs him not to do that. Blah blah blah.

Err, that was part of the point. The Jedi had become stagnant and complacent. They were too bound by rules and traditions, and had lost sight of what Qui-Gon called "the living Force." They were losing their ability to see through the Force, and they were so disconnected they couldn't sense the Lord of the Sith sitting right under their noses.

Yoda never seemed too disconnected when he was flipping around like Kermit the Frog on crack, shielding off lightning strikes, and tossing boxes. Of course, therein lies one of the major problems with the writing of those movies, which LUCAS did, the Force only worked well when the plot called for it to work well.

In the end, it is Luke's attachment to his father that allows him to triumph.

Well, more like Luke's dad's attachment to Luke, which didn't make a lot of sense because Vader didn't really know Luke. Of course, it would have been better given the plot of Episode 3 if someone else told Luke that Vader was his dad, Luke told Vader, and Vader said, "HEY! WTF, PALPATINE?! YOU TOLD ME I KILLED PADME! <zap><zap><zap>"

One could even argue that the Jedi Order needed to be destroyed and rebuilt, as they had strayed too far from the path and lost sight of what mattered.

We should stick to the whole, "Gosh, this is really shitty writing!" since that makes more sense.

Eh, divine birth doesn't start and end with the Bible. And earlier drafts of the ROTS script explicitly had Palpatine telling Anakin that he was responsible for causing the midichlorians to begin the cell divisions that created him. That was cut, but we do still see Palpatine's lingering gaze as he tells Anakin that Plagueis had the power to "influence the midichlorians to create... life." It's enough of a suggestion and was left deliberately ambiguous. Which I like.

Yeah, I think we all got that from the whole, "In fact, some sithy lord types can even make life from nothingness!" stuff he was talking about. I doubt too many people didn't catch on to the fact that Palpatine was a frog's hair away from saying, "Dude! I'm totally your daddy!"

I disagree, and you really didn't provide much support as to how what everything is built upon doesn't make sense. And please stop using loaded words like "rationalization." It sounds dismissive.

Maybe if you spent half as much time analysing my posts as you did those crappy movies to find meaning, I wouldn't have to write anything more.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Err, that was part of the point. The Jedi had become stagnant and complacent. They were too bound by rules and traditions, and had lost sight of what Qui-Gon called "the living Force." They were losing their ability to see through the Force, and they were so disconnected they couldn't sense the Lord of the Sith sitting right under their noses. The Jedi Order was wrong in so many ways. Anakin's relationships with his mother and with Padme were affected by the forbidding of attachments. He wasn't allowed to return to his mother. He wasn't allowed to have a relationship with Padme. If the Jedi had a more relaxed stance on this issue, then perhaps he would not have been so afraid to lose them. In the end, it is Luke's attachment to his father that allows him to triumph.

Actually, in the end, it's Vader's attachment to Luke which saves Luke's arse. Luke is too busy getting owned by the Emperor and being unwilling to fight (as per the pussy Jedi way) before Vader jumps up, uses his rage and pwns the Emperor, thus saving everyone.

So actually, the "triumph" comes from the bad Jedi kid breaking the Jedi rules once again.

Ironic, no?

 

[themadhatter114]

Err, that was part of the point. The Jedi had become stagnant and complacent. They were too bound by rules and traditions, and had lost sight of what Qui-Gon called "the living Force." They were losing their ability to see through the Force, and they were so disconnected they couldn't sense the Lord of the Sith sitting right under their noses. The Jedi Order was wrong in so many ways. Anakin's relationships with his mother and with Padme were affected by the forbidding of attachments. He wasn't allowed to return to his mother. He wasn't allowed to have a relationship with Padme. If the Jedi had a more relaxed stance on this issue, then perhaps he would not have been so afraid to lose them. In the end, it is Luke's attachment to his father that allows him to triumph.

Actually, in the end, it's Vader's attachment to Luke which saves Luke's arse. Luke is too busy getting owned by the Emperor and being unwilling to fight (as per the pussy Jedi way) before Vader jumps up, uses his rage and pwns the Emperor, thus saving everyone.

So actually, the "triumph" comes from the bad Jedi kid breaking the Jedi rules once again.

Ironic, no?

No, it's Luke's attachment to his father which prevents him from killing him, which would have led to the dark side. And Vader's attachment to Luke, inspired by his newfound appreciation for his son and the Jedi, which then saves Luke from the Emperor. And I don't see how it's Vader's 'rage' saving Luke, as opposed to his compassion for Luke. The Jedi kill all the time in order to save others, no? And it's not like Luke was unwilling to fight. He was simply unwilling to kill his father in rage, and then there was no way he could've challenged the Emperor by himself.

If Luke would've killed Vader, he would've been giving himself to the Emperor. His love for his father 'saved' Vader's soul , which in turn led to Vader saving his life. So instead of he and his father both being forfeit to the Dark Side, his compassion really saved them both. Not to mention that had Luke killed Vader, he never would've gotten away from the Emperor in time to avoid the explosion of the Death Star.

 

[kingcomrade]

The movies were terrible. Jesus Christ, you wrote an essay defending those movies when a much simpler, much more likely explanation exists: Lucas sucks at writing.

I just watched all of the prequels a while ago (I had only seen the first one). I swear, those movies were embarassing to watch. That twit who plays Anakin has a speech impediment or something, I couldn't stand him. And while there are plenty of explanations for why he did what he did, none of them matter because the movies' presentation of all of the events is terrible.

 

[Rhombus]

I think the thing to remember is that Dragon Age has neither alignments nor the good-evil dichotomy like Star Wars or Jade Empire. That means we are not designing plots and dialogue with the idea of servicing any kind of morality mechanic -- so there doesn't have to be "the good route" and "the evil route" in every single dialogue and quest, we provide whatever motivations we feel are appropriate to the circumstances.

So it's not that easy to answer when someone asks a question like "can I play my evil character?" -- if you believe your character is evil, then that's fine, but there's no in-game mechanic to reinforce that. And the choices you have to make are often going to be a bit more complex than your standard good and evil.

I think it might be a bit more appropriate to say you can choose between being moral and amoral, though sometimes the consequences of the path you choose are not always readily apparent.

Woohoo!..

*does a little happy dance*

Hoping that won't be just words, but that they will actually pull that off.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

No, it's Luke's attachment to his father which prevents him from killing him, which would have led to the dark side. And Vader's attachment to Luke, inspired by his newfound appreciation for his son and the Jedi, which then saves Luke from the Emperor. And I don't see how it's Vader's 'rage' saving Luke, as opposed to his compassion for Luke. The Jedi kill all the time in order to save others, no? And it's not like Luke was unwilling to fight. He was simply unwilling to kill his father in rage, and then there was no way he could've challenged the Emperor by himself.

If Luke would've killed Vader, he would've been giving himself to the Emperor. His love for his father 'saved' Vader's soul , which in turn led to Vader saving his life. So instead of he and his father both being forfeit to the Dark Side, his compassion really saved them both. Not to mention that had Luke killed Vader, he never would've gotten away from the Emperor in time to avoid the explosion of the Death Star.

Well, here's where the really bad writing comes in. The whole set up we're supposed to believe is that Anakin was in the grips of UBAR POWAHFUL LUV for Padme. That leads him to think she's going to die and knows she's pregnant with Anakin chitlins in her belly, so he turns to the Dark Side. Then he tries to kill her, because he's super pissed off that she thinks he's now a dick. He fights Obi-Wan and does some stupid shit and gets pwn3d. The Emperor saves him, slaps some plastic on him, and then tells him he murdered Padme. NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo! So, he's carrying around this whole, "Son of a bitch! I killed my SUPAH DUPAH LUV OF MY LIFE!" baggage now, supposedly!

Okay, flash forward to Empire Strikes Back where Vader finds/figures out Luke is his son. At this point, he should also know that if he actually killed Padme, like the Emperor said he did, Luke couldn't possibly exist. So, he would have had to have known the Emperor was lying to him about that and all that baggage and guilt and shit was a lie.

Return of the Jedi should have only been about thirty minutes long and consisted of Vader going back to the Death Star, going up to the Emperor, and saying, "Hey! What's the big fuckin' deal, bitch?!"

Oh yeah, and Padme's death scene was one of the worst death scenes in cinematic history.

 

[Keldryn]

Maybe if you spent half as much time analysing my posts as you did those crappy movies to find meaning, I wouldn't have to write anything more.

Yeah, I'd love to engage in a battle of wits with you, but I refuse to take on an unarmed opponent.

 

[kingcomrade]

Watch out, he might make fun of your mom next.

 

[themadhatter114]

No, it's Luke's attachment to his father which prevents him from killing him, which would have led to the dark side. And Vader's attachment to Luke, inspired by his newfound appreciation for his son and the Jedi, which then saves Luke from the Emperor. And I don't see how it's Vader's 'rage' saving Luke, as opposed to his compassion for Luke. The Jedi kill all the time in order to save others, no? And it's not like Luke was unwilling to fight. He was simply unwilling to kill his father in rage, and then there was no way he could've challenged the Emperor by himself.

If Luke would've killed Vader, he would've been giving himself to the Emperor. His love for his father 'saved' Vader's soul , which in turn led to Vader saving his life. So instead of he and his father both being forfeit to the Dark Side, his compassion really saved them both. Not to mention that had Luke killed Vader, he never would've gotten away from the Emperor in time to avoid the explosion of the Death Star.

Well, here's where the really bad writing comes in. The whole set up we're supposed to believe is that Anakin was in the grips of UBAR POWAHFUL LUV for Padme. That leads him to think she's going to die and knows she's pregnant with Anakin chitlins in her belly, so he turns to the Dark Side. Then he tries to kill her, because he's super pissed off that she thinks he's now a dick. He fights Obi-Wan and does some stupid shit and gets pwn3d. The Emperor saves him, slaps some plastic on him, and then tells him he murdered Padme. NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo! So, he's carrying around this whole, "Son of a bitch! I killed my SUPAH DUPAH LUV OF MY LIFE!" baggage now, supposedly!

Okay, flash forward to Empire Strikes Back where Vader finds/figures out Luke is his son. At this point, he should also know that if he actually killed Padme, like the Emperor said he did, Luke couldn't possibly exist. So, he would have had to have known the Emperor was lying to him about that and all that baggage and guilt and shit was a lie.

Return of the Jedi should have only been about thirty minutes long and consisted of Vader going back to the Death Star, going up to the Emperor, and saying, "Hey! What's the big fuckin' deal, bitch?!"

Oh yeah, and Padme's death scene was one of the worst death scenes in cinematic history.

I personally just like to completely write off the prequels as nonexistant. The overarching plot is okay, for the most part, but the individual plot of each movie is atrocious, and I think the dialogue is horrible, as is the acting. Throughout all 3 movies, I found every scene with Anakin to be unbearable. But I'm not going to let that keep me from enjoying the original trilogy, nor am I going to look at things in the original trilogy with any consideration for how the prequels were leading to or contradicting what happens in the original trilogy. I argue for the original trilogy on its own merits and in my defense of it earlier I made sure not to mention the prequels in any way, because they suck.

 

[Volourn]

"Do these stupid forum things even count as news?"

Ha. Haha. Hahaha. Hahahaha. Hahahahaha.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I made sure not to mention the prequels in any way, because they suck.

Yes, yes they do.

 

[RK47]

It's like...Oblivion to Daggerfall u see..
old ones are better. etc. and stuff like that.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Oh yeah, and Padme's death scene was one of the worst death scenes in cinematic history.

Oooooba, Ooooooba!


No matter how bad the prequels were, the special editions just show how insanity has gripped lucas.....and he's just being a lousy cunt for not releasing the unedited original trilogy on DVD's

 

[themadhatter114]

Oh yeah, and Padme's death scene was one of the worst death scenes in cinematic history.

Oooooba, Ooooooba!


No matter how bad the prequels were, the special editions just show how insanity has gripped lucas.....and he's just being a lousy cunt for not releasing the unedited original trilogy on DVD's

That pisses me off. I can't bear to watch the special edition of ROTJ. I can't really forgive the Greedo scene in ANH either, but it's much more bearable than that one jackass in Jabba's palace.