Dragon Age: Origins PC Gamer preview out, tidbits...

[ArcturusXIV]

I think the whole elf/human dilemma pretty much sums up Bioware's design philosophy!

"We're going to make a generic fantasy game with elves, humans, dwarves. But then we're going to put a twist on it and elves are going to be sub-par citizens, rather than regal like they are in most fantasy games? We're clever, huh? huh?"

I am so tired of Bioware cliches. Christ, you'd think they'd have saved the planet already with as many times as they'd recycled the same ideas.

 

[Lesifoere]

The Witcher did the whole "non-humans are second-class citizens" way better, anyway.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

You know, they're probably trying to copy the Witcher a fuckton more than shown thus far.

 

[Lesifoere]

Yeah, that's the impression I got too, from their jumping the morally ambiguous bandwagon of elven oppression. The sad thing is, when/if the Witcher 2 comes out, the masses will think CDP copy-catted Bioware.

 

[MetalCraze]

PC masses already know well too perfectly what is TW. Console masses will learn too. So I doubt there will be such retardation.

Want it or not but TW is as mainstream as any Bioware game - especially if we look at all those top game 2007 polls.

 

[Balthamael]

"Can you give some examples?"

You should actually play the game and pay attention.

I will not. It would be counterproductive. The question then remains still, though I am quite certain that the answer is no.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

The Witcher did the whole "non-humans are second-class citizens" way better, anyway.

How so? I'm willing to reserve judgment until I've played Dragon Age, but the Witcher came across as a normal fantasy setting with a twist as well. The two look pretty similar so far to me.

In fact, if DA is The Witcher with better combat, I'll be a happy man.

 

[Volourn]

"Yeah, that's the impression I got too, from their jumping the morally ambiguous bandwagon of elven oppression."

The awesomt hing, TW is FAR from the first work of fantasy to have demi humans as 'second class citizens'. Hell, the FR has it too. *shrug*

And, TW sucks, so hopefully DA will be nothing like it.

I seirously doubt BIO is trying to steal from TW because a) BIo is more successful and don't need to take from their lessers b) Nothing in TW is actually original anyways so BIo would actually be 'borrowing' from other sources, c) DA has been worked on for a long time so stuff like this was probably mostly determined well before TW was released D) TW's creators had no problem 'borrowing' BIO's engine so if anything TW copies BIO's successful formula.

R00fles!

 

[Jaesun]

I seirously doubt BIO is trying to steal from TW because a) BIo is more successful and don't need to take from their lessers b) Nothing in TW is actually original anyways so BIo would actually be 'borrowing' from other sources, c) DA has been worked on for a long time so stuff like this was probably mostly determined well before TW was released D) TW's creators had no problem 'borrowing' BIO's engine so if anything TW copies BIO's successful formula.

R00fles!

Cant. Stop. Laughing.

 

[Lesifoere]

The Witcher did the whole "non-humans are second-class citizens" way better, anyway.

How so? I'm willing to reserve judgment until I've played Dragon Age, but the Witcher came across as a normal fantasy setting with a twist as well. The two look pretty similar so far to me.

In fact, if DA is The Witcher with better combat, I'll be a happy man.

I doubt it very much. TW, for example, doesn't have a love interest who badgers you constantly for personal psychotherapy. DA almost certainly will and given how racism's handled in ME--vague, weak, unconvincing--I don't think it'll be any better in DA.

 

[MetalCraze]

Instead TW has 30 "love" interests whom you can bang right away without all that Bioware's prelude fluff.

 

[kris]

The Witcher did the whole "non-humans are second-class citizens" way better, anyway.

We don't really know that.

In TW I more got the impression they were some sad group of Robin Hoods without any real power.

Obviously most settings always had these groups on different levels in the power scale. What from my recollection all had was that elves (and other races) was on the decline and humans was taking over. That if anything is the biggest cliché that anything from Tolkien to TW to Arcanum used.

 

[Lesifoere]

Yes, but the difference--an important one--is that elves in Tolkien and subsequent copy-pastes tend to faaaade and sail into the west while whining like little bitches and lamenting the loss of moonlit dances and the music of starlight (no really, even the elves in FR do this until 3E, down to the whole "we will retreat to an elven island to the west!" schtick).

 

[Radisshu]

Yeah, that's the impression I got too, from their jumping the morally ambiguous bandwagon of elven oppression. The sad thing is, when/if the Witcher 2 comes out, the masses will think CDP copy-catted Bioware.

The devs have actually been hinting at stuff like that at the forum before anything but "it's based on the nwn engine" was known about the Witcher.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The Witcher did the whole "non-humans are second-class citizens" way better, anyway.

The Witcher fails at moral ambiguity by portraying the humans as racist sexist cheating greedy murderous deviant vile sodomites at every turn. I almost laughed out loud the first time i finished chapter one and i was presented with the option to side with the witch or with the villagers. Gee, let me think.

The game wasn't bad, at any rate.

 

[hiver]

The Witcher fails at moral ambiguity by portraying the humans as racist sexist cheating greedy murderous deviant vile sodomites at every turn

Which is what we are, really. Minus some individuals just like in RL.

I believe moral ambiguity was in the fact that opposing non-humans (elves and dwarves) were almost as bad. There was no clear good side to go along with.

 

[AzraelCC]

Bah, high elves fail everywhere. Except in Eberron.

There are two nations of elves in Eberron: The Valenar and the Aerenal.

The Valenar are bad-ass motherfuckers who were former slaves of giants and are now a tribal society of warriors. Their main goal is to kick as much ass as possible to honor their ancestors.

The elves of Aerenal wants to conquer the world through necromancy. Living dead elves walk their Aztec-like cities.

Someone really should make a cRPG set n Eberron.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

The Witcher fails at moral ambiguity by portraying the humans as racist sexist cheating greedy murderous deviant vile sodomites at every turn

Which is what we are, really. Minus some individuals just like in RL.

Indeed just yesterday I killed a woman for not blowing me then had sex with her corpse before I mailed it to her mother just for kicks. My wife won't be very happy about it. Oh who cares she was a nigger anyway. Most of my friends do the same thing from time to time.

 

[Worm King]

Bah, high elves fail everywhere. Except in Eberron.

There are two nations of elves in Eberron: The Valenar and the Aerenal.

The Valenar are bad-ass motherfuckers who were former slaves of giants and are now a tribal society of warriors. Their main goal is to kick as much ass as possible to honor their ancestors.

The elves of Aerenal wants to conquer the world through necromancy. Living dead elves walk their Aztec-like cities.

Someone really should make a cRPG set n Eberron.

Except the their names are still generic "elven language" characterized by as much vowels as possible. Why the fuck can't they just be Southmen from Southland or such instead of Laelesefer'eseele?

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

The Witcher did the whole "non-humans are second-class citizens" way better, anyway.

The Witcher fails at moral ambiguity by portraying the humans as racist sexist cheating greedy murderous deviant vile sodomites at every turn. I almost laughed out loud the first time i finished chapter one and i was presented with the option to side with the witch or with the villagers. Gee, let me think.

The game wasn't bad, at any rate.

The "hippy terrorists vs genocidal Knight Templars" thing was a bit more morally ambiguous. Or would have been if they hadn't presented the "they're both fucking stupid" neutral path.

 

[Annonchinil]

I think games should focus on ideas and themes and derive morality from them. Instead of simply portraying ambiguity. If anything it seems that the way 'grey morality' is portrayed is through cliches (ends justify the means) that are just as boring as black/white, or making everyone bad, or taking a positive quality and mixing it with a completely unrelated or loosely related negative one.

Really the choice between the witch and the villagers in TW is not a morale one as the characters don't even represent different aspects of morality and are all driven by greed. Most of the discussions about it were not about morality but more about the mystery of the situation and who was actually responsible for what.

I would like to see more characters like Morte.There are lots of reasons, for example; he is not the product of two extremes (genocidal knights or hippy terrorists) but instead is strongly characterized.

 

[KevinV12000]

Why bother discussing a console game?

Isn't it obvious that part of the price Bioware had to pay when sold was that Dragon Age would be consolized?

--Dragon Age will be PC only! The sucessor to our great computer RPGs!

--No, wait...er, Dragon Age will be PRIMARILY for the PC with an eventual console port!

--Er...wait...Dragon Age will be delayed because we really super double want it to be awesome, you wait and see, wow, it's gonna be great.

--Dragon Age will be released for PC concurrently with its release for console.

What is NOT CLEAR to anyone about this progression?

 

[Warden]

Isn't it obvious that part of the price Bioware had to pay when sold was that Dragon Age would be consolized?

Huh? In what parallel universe do you live?

Hello there, and welcome to Earth. Just so you know, Bioware is that puny company whose last games are Jade Empire, Kotor, Mass Defect and Sonic (all released without EA in sight). What do those games have in common? That's right - console first.

 

[Rhalle]

In TW I more got the impression they were some sad group of Robin Hoods without any real power.

The humans and elves/dwarves are both noble and despicable, and each have their own admirable and ugly motives; that's why TW does the whole 'pick a race to feel sorry for' thing better than Bioware ever did. (And it even lets you pick neither.)

Why bother discussing a console game?

Isn't it obvious that part of the price Bioware had to pay when sold was that Dragon Age would be consolized?

That and morph into a DLC (and multi-faceted DRM) experiment with the fucking "Origins" subtitle.

 

[MetalCraze]

The Witcher did the whole "non-humans are second-class citizens" way better, anyway.

The Witcher fails at moral ambiguity by portraying the humans as racist sexist cheating greedy murderous deviant vile sodomites at every turn. I almost laughed out loud the first time i finished chapter one and i was presented with the option to side with the witch or with the villagers. Gee, let me think.

The game wasn't bad, at any rate.

The "hippy terrorists vs genocidal Knight Templars" thing was a bit more morally ambiguous. Or would have been if they hadn't presented the "they're both fucking stupid" neutral path.

There was something in TW besides the neutral path?

In TW I more got the impression they were some sad group of Robin Hoods without any real power.

The humans and elves/dwarves are both noble and despicable, and each have their own admirable and ugly motives; that's why TW does the whole 'pick a race to feel sorry for' thing better than Bioware ever did. (And it even lets you pick neither.)

Exactly.
Why you can help one race fight the other in this little single fight. Don't worry it won't affect shit (besides replacing elven models with human models as enemies during all those 3 encounters that let you choose) just like the "pick neither" option because you will still fight Order/humans in the end no matter what you did during the game.