Game News Dragon Age Preview on computerandvideogames.com

[dagorkan]

Both the Tolkien Elves and the Dunedain were kind of fascistic in some ways. Very strict hereditary/hierarchical command, genealogical/racial purity, etc.

Well there's certainly a similar obsession with the glories of the past. Tolkien's Middle Earth is based on European heroic epic and ballad (with Christian overtones). A large part of the epic tradition is longing for a bygone era when men were (supposedly) mightier; this theme is prevalent and consistent across diverse ethnic groups. Great heroes always lived just at the cusp cultural memory; men were better in the distant past: stronger, braver, wiser, and purer. Tolkien just takes this theme and runs with it ad nauseum, where each race is a lesser version of the preceding one. Even the forces of evil are given this treatment. Morgoth could field legions of dragons and Balrogs, by the end of the Third Age all Sauron can muster are orcs and trolls.

I was watching Steve Jackson's "The Two Towers" yesterday (real shit audio/music integration I thought - the music is OK to listen to or in M&B's LOTR mod, but awfully placed/used in the movie), and I was disturbed with how Smeagol is treated. He keeps getting smacked and thrown around, having his neck wrung, kicked etc. By the supposedly 'good', 'rightous' people, eg the Dunedain, Faramir as well as Tom or whatever the fat hobbit is called.

How is this supposed to be a Christian message? I know that he is sometimes an evil character, and that eg Frodo shows pity and is prepared to give him a chance, that there's a theme of 'treating people well, being kind is rewarded' - well, that's on the surface. In fact Frodo is not that nice, he actually lets Smeagol be beaten by the guards, and doesn't show all that much empathy - it's like "this is bad but oh well, I'm not going to step in and stop it".

It's more like a kind of petty bourgeois hypocrisy. People are good because they say nice things and appear nice, not because of their actual actions.

In fact I am disturbed that this is a movie aimed partly at kids and that Frodo/his company are shown as good people and that the movie has a 'good message'. The violence, unfairness against Smeagol is simply vicious and unjustified, no matter what he did wrong.

There is a mentality behind it that "if you're good" then you're allowed to act in vicious ways, that if you're 'righteous' then you get more excuses, and that 'evil' people can be treated any way you like.

Not just Smeagol either, the way the 'company' act during battles. Eg, Legolas/Gimli and their little 'game' of how many Orcs they kill, joking about their 'score', which goes against the Christian message. They're not just "defending good", they actually enjoy fighting and just happen to be on the side of Good.

If you look good, if you're intelligent and strong, wear nice clothes and have nice friends you get more excuses than if you wear rags, if you're ugly, stupid and 'unlikable' and do the same things.

The only exception throughout the whole movie is Faramir's comment about the Arab guy who he kills when his group first captures Frodo/Tom.

...But then again, I felt empathy for Shylock (played by Al Pacino) when I watched the movie "The Merchant of Venice", who I thought was totally understandable and despised the 'Christian' Antonio and his degenerate coterie of friends. I think the mentality behind "The Merchant of Venice"/"The Jew of Malta" and "The Lord of the Rings" is similar.

 

[Shannow]

That is the problem I have with every high-fantasy setting. The whole concept of sapient races being "good" or "evil" is bogus.

Now you can whine about that or just enjoy the more believable settings and look down along your nose on the high-fantasy settings ^^

 

[dagorkan]

I'm not sure I agree with you, and in fact the basic concept of Smeagol is morally ambiguous and interesting. It's the way it was developed and then portrayed that is the problem, which takes that ambiguity and destroys it. The fact that Smeagol/Gollum exists is a good thing in itself, that improves LOTR it's just a pity it's been dumbed down.

You know after watching the movie I did some research on Smeagol and learned in fact that in the first version of 'The Hobbit' he was a more complex character, less of a stereotype. 'The Hobbit' is actually a superior book in some ways than LOTR, and the change was made when JRR Tolkien started work on LOTR (before he published 'The Hobbit'). To make Smeagol 'fit in' with the mentality/ideology of LOTR he made the traits more extreme, 'dumbed him down', as an excuse for how Smeagol is portrayed and how he is treated in LOTR perhaps.

Remember that in the Hobbit, Bilbo does have a chance to kill Gollum while he is invisible. He thinks about it, and it's an actual moral dilemma, and decides not to. That is the kind of thing that makes it better than trash fantasy, thinking about moral issues that have a long term effect and which are not immediately obvious. In LOTR, it's all 'instinctive', and what you do doesn't matter as much as being 'righteous'.

That is why 'The Hobbit' would make an excellent RPG and 'LOTR' would not.

Even though 'The Hobbit' is a children's story and LOTR is supposedly not (becoming a cult classic for the teen/young adult 60s/70s counter-culture). And that LOTR is world famous 'literature' and 'The Hobbit' is almost an irrelevance in comparison, 'something else Tolkien wrote', and background for the 'real masterpiece'.

Anyway, Tolkien in his later letters, explained the difference in tone/theme between the books by saying that 'The Hobbit' is a story made up by Bilbo which he then told to Gandalf and everybody else to explain his story. He portrayed Gollum in a more positive light than he 'deserved', implying that Bilbo was misguided (a 'silly old man', naive, sentimental) to let him live. LOTR's take on moral issues is 'better' and the 'true story'.

I feel the opposite. Bilbo's story is better and more likely to be 'realistic' and 'LOTR' is the fascist propaganda story made to justify Aragorn and the righteousness of his dynasty.

 

[JarlFrank]

Not just Smeagol either, the way the 'company' act during battles. Eg, Legolas/Gimli and their little 'game' of how many Orcs they kill, joking about their 'score', which goes against the Christian message. They're not just "defending good", they actually enjoy fighting and just happen to be on the side of Good.

Well, you have to be a badass to save the world and not a wussy. Also, I like people who enjoy killing, so no problem with that. I can feel myself into them much easier than into the goodie guys who only do it because it's necessary.

And, yes, I am the kind of guy who sometimes is sad that the evil mastermind didn't manage to conquer the world in the end.

And it has *absolutely* nothing to do with the fact that I'm German.

 

[dagorkan]

That's what you say but how many people have you killed? How many people have you kicked in the face, thrown against walls and beaten into submission? More importantly how many times have you been beaten up? What do you know about the reality of violence and war?

Reality is that after a war either you become a sociopath or you become careful of using violence. Most people coming back from wars, eg WW1 and WW2 do not enjoy fighting, they do it because it's necessary. That doesn't make you a 'wuss'. Legolas/Gimli etc are either sociopaths or bad caricatures for immature teenage boys look up to, who also believe in bullshit concepts of 'heroism' and 'valor'. Heroism doesn't exist in that sense, in reality you win fight because you're stronger, better trained, meaner. You win fights by being more competent at destroying your opponent's vital organs. Being righteous doesn't give you a premium, it's totally irrelevant. Bravery is irrelevant, it just gets you killed faster. Statistics are more powerful than intentions.

Of course it's fiction, but as fiction goes 'The Hobbit' is more realistic than LOTR.

 

[Shannow]

Well, I was thinking more of evil races (e.g. orcs) that don't make much sense. In fact I disagree with your Gollum example. Sam is mean to Gollum because he doesn't trust him and rightfully so. In the movie it seems as if Gollum only turns on them because he was pushed around a lot. That was not the impression I got from the book (although it has been some years).
Frodo is nice to Gollum because he sympathises. If a spark of "goodness" can be brought to life in Gollum that means that Frodo himself might be able to resist the vileness of the Ring.

And I remember Frodo doing everything he can to help Gollum after the humans capture them. So I don't agree with

Frodo is not that nice, he actually lets Smeagol be beaten by the guards, and doesn't show all that much empathy - it's like "this is bad but oh well, I'm not going to step in and stop it".

And why should there be a "christian" message in LotR? Is there not enough "christian" torture and preemptive wars going on in the real world?


That aside I also liked The Hobbit better.

 

[JarlFrank]

Being righteous doesn't give you a premium, it's totally irrelevant. Bravery is irrelevant, it just gets you killed faster. Statistics are more powerful than intentions.

On that note, I wonder how the "good" elves and humans who are living in peace in their little forests and nice cities always prevail against the enemy who is battle-hardened, vicious, ready for anything and even partly industrialized [if you can see Saruman's way to mass-produce Uruk-Hais that way]? How can the peaceful people who are quite surprisingly assaulted by the evil war-ready enemy always win?

 

[Jasede]

Good always wins, it makes for traditional story-telling.

Would you read your kid a fairy tale where the little red riding hood is brutally dismembered by the big bad wolf, his menacing teeth tearing her succulent flesh apart, fine mists of blood coating grandma's house red?

Wait, don't answer that.

 

[serch]

The whole point of the story is that there's not pure good in it, overcoming temptation and all that. Pure evil, yes.

 

[RGE]

He keeps getting smacked and thrown around, having his neck wrung, kicked etc. By the supposedly 'good', 'rightous' people, eg the Dunedain, Faramir as well as Tom or whatever the fat hobbit is called.

Sam. And just because those guys are the good guys doesn't necessarily make them good, it just makes them allies against Sauron, who isn't a good guy, and who also had Gollum tortured. Sucks to be Gollum. And I thought that it was pretty clear that the Dunedain aren't the goodest of the guys, which is why they need Aragorn to return before they can kick Sauron's ass. Without his guidance they're just men, no better and no worse. But certainly better than the orcs and the trolls.

The Christian message isn't supposed to be there either, I think. It's nature vs war/technology. And since when is it not heroic and totally acceptable to make a game out of killing violent invaders? Go back to orchland, orchs!

 

[Mamon]

I bought a book that was something like a "Tolkien for beginners", very interesting.

How is this supposed to be a Christian message? I know that he is sometimes an evil character, and that eg Frodo shows pity and is prepared to give him a chance, that there's a theme of 'treating people well, being kind is rewarded' - well, that's on the surface. In fact Frodo is not that nice, he actually lets Smeagol be beaten by the guards, and doesn't show all that much empathy - it's like "this is bad but oh well, I'm not going to step in and stop it".

In the book, Frodo does everything in his power to help the damn idiot. And to be nice you don´t to act like "awwww dont zzzhhurzzt himz plz"

And it's not surprising the books have christian undertones since Tolkien was a very devoted catholic himself (although he was not a "propagandist" of the religion).

 

[kris]

On that note, I wonder how the "good" elves and humans who are living in peace in their little forests and nice cities always prevail against the enemy who is battle-hardened, vicious, ready for anything and even partly industrialized [if you can see Saruman's way to mass-produce Uruk-Hais that way]? How can the peaceful people who are quite surprisingly assaulted by the evil war-ready enemy always win?

If we talk the Tolkien world, then I am not sure what you are thinking about. The humans have been in war after war and gondor for instance was in an ongoing conflict with Mordor for a long time. Rohan was created as the horse people conquered it. The elves always was kind of superior and have the benefit of immortality, many of them having been in several wars over their long lives.

 

[Volourn]

"That is the problem I have with every high-fantasy setting. The whole concept of sapient races being "good" or "evil" is bogus.
"

I'm glad you think that way. In D&D, not every race is pigeon holed. Not all dwarves are good. Not all drow are evil. yet, people whine about that too.


L0L0L0L0LLIP0P

 

[RK47]

Good always wins, it makes for traditional story-telling.

Would you read your kid a fairy tale where the little red riding hood is brutally dismembered by the big bad wolf, his menacing teeth tearing her succulent flesh apart, fine mists of blood coating grandma's house red?

Wait, don't answer that.

there was slight hentai rpg that lets the wolf rape the riding hood...then i get to barge in and kill the wolf AND fuck the girl. I won't even start about the 7 dwarves...those guys are tough to fight.

 

[Section8]

Tom Bombadil proves that Tolkien thought god was a fag.

 

[kris]

For christian themes, read Narnia books. I think there is some slight hints of that in those books :D

 

[Andhaira]

"That is the problem I have with every high-fantasy setting. The whole concept of sapient races being "good" or "evil" is bogus.
"

I'm glad you think that way. In D&D, not every race is pigeon holed. Not all dwarves are good. Not all drow are evil. yet, people whine about that too.


L0L0L0L0LLIP0P

Actually people whine about one dark elf in particular. The only 'good' dark elf in dnd. And honestly, the whining is justified. Drizzt is annoying.

 

[Drunken Irishman]

This thread has brought out the Tolkien fanboy in me. I am tempted and therefore I will address some thoughts brought up here in the thread.

1. There's a common misconception to put Tolkien into the same pot with any other fantasy that has elves in it. I'm referring to the phrase "tolkienesque elves."

That's so wrong. Here's why.

Tolkien is like this.

Typical fantasy is like this.

There's a subtle difference between Tolkien and typical pulp-fantasy with elves. There's enough fairytale left in Tolkien's work to give it a feeling of magic. It's something that modern fantasy lacks. Yes, there is magic... but it's not magical.

2. Because elves are goody two-shoes treehugging gays in nowadays, then they must be that way also in Tolkien.

Again wrong. Firstly, not a single one of Tolkien elves said stuff that nature-protecting is important and that we must all hug trees. In fact, half of the elves figuring in his works live in stone citadels. Secondly, elves were as evil as any normal human.

3. Good races vs. evil races

That's true. But that doesn't mean that every good guy is a paragon of virtue who can't stop preaching. I'll resort to the most popular example - Turin, a sociopath who slept with his sister, killed random people on a regular basis and then committed suicide. But he is a good guy since he fought with the dragon and had good intentions, he just wasn't you're regular St. George. I agree with Sarch who said that the point was that there is no pure good. Only pure evil.

 

[Mayday]

Dagorkan: he thinks that killing is always evil.

 

[Volourn]

"The only 'good' dark elf in dnd."

FALSE.


"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This thread has brought out the Tolkien fanboy in me. I am tempted and therefore I will address some thoughts brought up here in the thread.

1. There's a common misconception to put Tolkien into the same pot with any other fantasy that has elves in it. I'm referring to the phrase "tolkienesque elves."

That's so wrong. Here's why.

Tolkien is like this.



Typical fantasy is like this.



There's a subtle difference between Tolkien and typical pulp-fantasy with elves. There's enough fairytale left in Tolkien's work to give it a feeling of magic. It's something that modern fantasy lacks. Yes, there is magic... but it's not magical.

2. Because elves are goody two-shoes treehugging gays in nowadays, then they must be that way also in Tolkien.

Again wrong. Firstly, not a single one of Tolkien elves said stuff that nature-protecting is important and that we must all hug trees. In fact, half of the elves figuring in his works live in stone citadels. Secondly, elves were as evil as any normal human."

Many D&D elves don't fit the stereotype either. L0L

 

[dragonfk]

I'll resort to the most popular example - Turin, a sociopath who slept with his sister, killed random people on a regular basis and then committed suicide. But he is a good guy since he fought with the dragon and had good intentions, he just wasn't you're regular St. George.

Turin a sociopath? Why? He did not know he married his own sister, also he did not kill random people. And why would you consider someone who comits suicide an evil person?

 

[Humanophage]

The_Popeх

Actually, elf nazis would make a pretty cool plot. Maybe they could use their superior magic, weapons, skill and general master race-ness to put a stop to those nasty humans and orcs taking over their lebensforest (the whole world).

On a side note, the theme has already been used in the add-on to the fantasy turn-based wargame Fantasy Wars. The original name of the add-on translates as "The Codex of War: The Master Race", and features perfect Nordid elves as protagonists. The road to victory is paved with corpses of puny, but innocent sub-elven races such as humans and dwarves.

However, the general aesthetics of the Drow in Forgotten Realms is pretty much identical to the depiction of Nazis in cheap movies, from occultism to BDSM to cruel experiments to slavery to elitism to charisma.

 

[Andhaira]

Volorun, drizzt was the FIRST officaillygood dark elf in dnd Its only after him they started with the others like that female mage/clerci dark elf.

 

[dagorkan]

You know Elves aren't real guys.