Preview Dragon Age sightings at 1UP

[OccupatedVoid]

Two peas in a pod.

...and one po in potato.

 

[Ladonna]

Arcanum was actually an Anti Chosen one RPG.

When you find out the bullshit at the temple, and then find out that the person you are supposed to be is ALIVE, it kind of hits the nail on the head.

And then the big bad boss tends to turn out to be someone who is imprisoned by a worse badguy...

As for Dragon Age.....

From what I have heard, its another 'We will tell you the story, and you WILL listen' type game, with forced characters, Walk along the path only, etc. NWN2 had this as well. If DA has a twist on this then I am all ears.

 

[Kairal]

Well the promise of different origins has me interested anyway. On the other hand I'm the kind of scum who likes JRPGs so the probably linear story doesn't bother me much.

About Epic stories, I don't really think it's important. It's a traditon and it probably wouldn't hurt to break it on occassion. The reason it's so used is because it works. I suspect many of you are simply being jaded. If you liked the game you wouldn't care and you're actually just searching for something to whine about. There are perfectly legitimate issues with most of the games that receive so much hate around here. It's probably better to stick with those than a fairly trivial complaint about overly epic plots.

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

Not that the Codex will ever give us a break or anything

I think you people have enough fans and review sites that give your games uber scores. How can the Codex even WORK you to give you a break when your company already has it made? Honestly, I think YOU are the one that's moaning.

If their is ANY game developer who has the right to "moan" about people "moaning" on forums, it's Vault Dweller. He has put up with our abuse for a long time and it's his first title that's not even released yet. Meanwhile, you guys get all fat off bread and wine and when one little web site gives you static while the other ones pump your wallets full, it's "OH, POOR US!" Tough shit.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, the Codex is giving VD a hard time ove rhis game... while they're sucking VD's dick (minus the usual few).

Look at TNP whine b/c the develoepr had the gall to criticize his precious site. I think YOU are the one moaning.

WAAA! Mr. Developer is pickin' on us! WA WA WA WA!

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

Volourn, I have seen many people criticise AoD on the AoD threads. It doesn't take alot of Gall to come to a small insignificant site when your big bad BIO. I never said they were picking on us, it seems they are just whining over a small insect bite.

 

[Dgaider]

From what I have heard, its another 'We will tell you the story, and you WILL listen' type game, with forced characters, Walk along the path only, etc. NWN2 had this as well. If DA has a twist on this then I am all ears.

I don't really know what to tell you. The areas are going to be much larger, leaving more room for exploration and optional quests/encounters then we've done recently in games like KotOR or Jade Empire... but ultimately, yes, it's still going to be a story-driven game. Games like Oblivion are more some people's speed, though, and that's cool.

I think you people have enough fans and review sites that give your games uber scores. How can the Codex even WORK you to give you a break when your company already has it made? Honestly, I think YOU are the one that's moaning.

If their is ANY game developer who has the right to "moan" about people "moaning" on forums, it's Vault Dweller. He has put up with our abuse for a long time and it's his first title that's not even released yet. Meanwhile, you guys get all fat off bread and wine and when one little web site gives you static while the other ones pump your wallets full, it's "OH, POOR US!" Tough shit.

Oh, spare me.

First off, I never asked for anyone here to become fawning sycophants, did I? So don't straw man me, dickhead. But just because Bioware is successful and has plenty of fans doesn't mean that I should suddenly be thankful that there are some who take personal umbrage against us and look for any poor excuse to find fault. The fact that I regularly come to the Codex at all should prove that while I don't expect fair treatment from some, I do believe that there is actual intelligent discourse that can occasionally be had. I'm not that masochistic.

And besides, the reactions in this thread have been almost 75% positive. It's disconcerting.

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

Why would you wanna make a game that isn't story driven *TeH ChOzEn WuN*-ish. 9.5+ reviews and sales in the millions is hard to resist, huh? I bet when my necromancer with great ambitions starts the game I will end up being forced to make friends with goofy, insecure fighters while I finish up my chores for my step daddy and then my precious village will be attacked, huh?

 

[JoKa]

seems like story-driven has become another word like immersion these days...

THAT's the story and you damn well lsten to it...! nothing you can do to change it...

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

I'm not that masochistic.

Than make a game that isn't typical "Story Driven BUT you can choose" than I will believe you. D&D type games that are Story driven"BUT", get old after a while my friend, unless your are a BIO fanboy, and you have alot of 'em. So why not cater to them and make tons of money?

 

[MountainWest]

I'm actually slightly positive about DA, despite the saving the world-crap. I've got this inexplicable feeling that they're telling the truth and that it will be more mature than their previous efforts. The artwork has a certain darkness to it, and I have to say I like it. This fucker certainly looks like something straight out of hell: http://www.1up.com/do/slideshow?pager.o ... Id=2019479

EDIT: The demon skin-head, that is.

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

More like, OMG Peter Jackson's Uruk Hai meets Spawn

I never said I was negative about Dragon Age. It might be half decent, and probably better than KOTOR, NWN, and JE. But I am sick of lame stories being forced on me when the character I create at character generation wants NOTHING to do with it. Or at least not get railroaded into it. I am also sick of games that offer lot's of non-combat choices to games that are action centered.

Besides, I wasn't talking about just Dragon Age itself, I was talking about Dgayder's attitude about the Codex in general. We don't just moan, we ARE here for a reason.

 

[Sir_Brennus]

More like, OMG Peter Jackson's Uruk Hai!

I never said I was negative about Dragon Age. It might be half decent, and probably better than KOTOR, NWN, and JE. But I am sick of lame stories being forced on me when the character I create at character generation wants NOTHING to do with it. Or at least not get railroaded into it. I am also sick of games that offer lot's of non-combat choices to games that are action centered.

Besides, I wasn't talking about just Dragon Age itself, I was talking about Dgayder's attitude about the Codex in general. We don't just moan, we ARE here for a reason.

That is one good example of "I-dont-like-it-so-it-is-bad" talk - mixed up with "circular-logic-that-defies-debate" and spiced with "I-hate-BIO-so-I-dont-accept-their-achievements".

First - Yeah it looks like one of WETA's creatures - FTW? It still looks awshumm!!!111

Second - You are tired of story driven rpg? Well, I'm bored of fuckers who think that non-linear gameplay is able to tell a good and coherent story, or a story at all. Look at Gothic3 - it has virtually no story and the Nameless Hero is not a character I care for. Look at Fallout (albeit a great game) - the story is minimal and I did only care for one NPC I worked with. Have you ever played a p&p game? There is a reason VtM was called a "story-telling-game" once...

Third - What do you mean by "action centered"??? The number of combats? The inevitablity of combat? You can play NWN2 as a diplomat character with minimal combat. Add the consequential non-combat choices that are implemented and your Fallout-fanboy mind eats itself.

Just my 0.02€

 

[MountainWest]

Text

Que? My post concerned Da and my thoughts on it. The quote-button is there for a reason. And as far as Story-driven goes; if it's a good story and has great gameplay, why wouldn't I like it? Story-driven and free-roaming both have potential to be great designs for games. And bad. Look at PsT and Oblivion.

 

[Ladonna]

First off, bigger areas can be good if they are done well (BTW David, nice turnaround using Oblivion...very sharp Prick).

When I talk about the 'exploration' side of things, I was talking more along the lines of Baldurs gate, where different areas could be accessed on the players own account, and various small subquests could be created, or completed, without having that area being 'forced' onto the player.

In Neverwinter nights 2, KOTOR, etc, every area was neccessary to the game. There was a 'path' that the player could go down and that is it. Other games like Fallout and Arcanum also had wonderful maps, with many areas that were not needed for the MQ, but were there, with subquests, perhaps some more flavour and information regarding the background of the main quest, and also maybe an NPC that could join up, but who wasn't 'needed' for the story.

This was something which made an incredibly linear game like Baldurs gate quite good in regards to exploration, flavour, and the feel of being an adventurer. These days, it seems like there are invisible ticket collectors everywhere forcing you to stay where the devs have put the MQ. It becomes both handholding, and destroys some of the sense of adventure with a good RPG (Ultima, Arcanum, etc etc).

Anyway, its something that is sadly missing these days in the RPG world. I know you guys have had it in you before, it just doesn't make sense that you haven't tried to implement it again. Even Baldurs gate two was a stepdown from this exploration side of things that the first introduced...the rest have been history.

Oblivion had NO exploration because there was nothing new to find. Everything was virtually the same. But please don't look to the Elderscrolls as something to emulate....mkay? :wink:

Edit: Storytelling; Yes, a good RPG is helped by having a decent storyline accompanying it. What I think Nameless, others and myself are trying to get across, is that the player gets to choose who they have with them, and also how the story turns out. In neverwinter nights 2 for example, I thought that being evil would lead me along a totally different axis, and areas to explore. It didn't. Basicly you still end up being lord of the manor, etc etc. Luskan should have been open to an evil character, and working through them, the Shadow King could have been destroyed and so on.

More than one way of skinning a cat is another way of putting it.

And if someone is sick of us 'pricks' as you put it, then what in fucks name are you doing here? Shouldn't you be off having a circle jerk with the other sycophants who are getting the games you all want anyway? I am almost certain (Though he will have to tell you himself) that David isn't here to listen to the usual drums beating in Bioware unison.

 

[Volourn]

"Volourn, I have seen many people criticise AoD on the AoD threads."

And? BIO gets tons of criticism on their boards too. Your point? Hell, me their so called 'biggest fanboy' (you know, that fanboy type that calls one game overrated, hasn't played 2 others, and rated a game 75%) criticize them all the time. What's your point, again?

" It doesn't take alot of Gall to come to a small insignificant site when your big bad BIO."

Big bad BIO? It's Mr. gaider. It's one friggin' guy. Not a friggin' company. Dumbass.

"I never said they were picking on us, it seems they are just whining over a small insect bite."

Just like youa re whining over one poster. Keep crying. It's hilarious!

And, BIO's RPGs have ALWAYS been story/plot focused, dumbass. And, besides, JE is their game with the bets actual role-playing to date. *shrug* Surely more than anything found in the BG series espciially BG1.


"You can play NWN2 as a diplomat character with minimal combat."

Define 'minimal', moron. It surely must be different than the accepted defintion no doubt.

 

[Ladonna]

And, BIO's RPGs have ALWAYS been story/plot focused, dumbass. And, besides, JE is their game with the bets actual role-playing to date. *shrug* Surely more than anything found in the BG series espciially BG1.

Indeed? You still haven't qualified this with any evidence or explanation, would you be so kind as to point out the awesome Roleplaying aspects of Jade Empire? If its as good as you say it is, I might even buy it....

With this statement in mind, do you agree that the 'Stay on the path' system is inferior to the Baldurs gate1/Arcanum/Ultima 6-7 way of exploration? Doesn't this way of exploring make a linear game like BG1 seem less linear (Without taking into consideration the Linear MQ)?

 

[aweigh]

And, BIO's RPGs have ALWAYS been story/plot focused, dumbass. And, besides, JE is their game with the bets actual role-playing to date. *shrug* Surely more than anything found in the BG series espciially BG1.

Indeed? You still haven't qualified this with any evidence or explanation, would you be so kind as to point out the awesome Roleplaying aspects of Jade Empire? If its as good as you say it is, I might even buy it....

With this statement in mind, do you agree that the 'Stay on the path' system is inferior to the Baldurs gate1/Arcanum/Ultima 6-7 way of exploration? Doesn't this way of exploring make a linear game like BG1 seem less linear (Without taking into consideration the Linear MQ)?

What you call "Stay on the path system" is actually just a design philosophy taken from console JRPG's for mainly 2 reasons: 1) your "stay on the path" system is easier to implement, i.e. frees up resources for other, more important areas like graphics, etc, and 2) since console audience is being targeted, they're brought on JRPG's and are therefore more familiar with "stay on the path" design philosophy, since "unnecessary" choices confuse them.

In the end, it's more profitable to use the "stay on the path" system, since the previous fans, the PC ones, will buy the game anyways regardless. Of course, not implying any of this has any meaning towards DA, since I don't know anything about DA. (haven't looked anything up, nor read this thread.)

 

[Ladonna]

No, I meant for DA. I should have explained better though.

But even though DA is a PC only game (For now ), I can see by looking at other PC only games like NWN, I am probably whistling out my....

Still, If you don't say something...And someone who really wants to be an ARTIST of the profession, will want to smash the opposition and create something fresh......

....Even if it is an old idea. :wink:

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Than make a game that isn't typical "Story Driven BUT you can choose" than I will believe you.

Because Gaider decides what kind of games Bioware makes. Right.

 

[galsiah]

I don't really know what to tell you. The areas are going to be much larger, leaving more room for exploration and optional quests/encounters then we've done recently in games like KotOR or Jade Empire... but ultimately, yes, it's still going to be a story-driven game.

Sure, but take something life Fallout - it's not story driven, but it does contain a fair number of disconnected areas with quests which have little effect either on the character, or the global state of the world/story. However, a good number of "side"-quests in Fallout have a very large influence on the way things go in their area. This makes them worth caring about.

Side quests in too many games end up resulting in either:
NPC X standing in position Y, and saying "Thank you so much for killing the rats. Our town is saved!!"
Or
NPC X standing in position Y, and saying "You did not kill the rats. Our town is doomed!!"

Unless the saving/dooming has tangible results beyond some guy standing around and saying "We're saved/doomed!!", the player just isn't going to care a whole lot. Perhaps it's not going to be possible to have side quests affecting the story, but many of them ought to have a real impact on something (beyond loot, experience and "thank you"/"curse you").

 

[Deacdo]

Sounds great if they can pull it off. Love to see them do it. But they talk the talk quite often and I haven't been very impressed with their previous efforts (particularly JE, a game where some similar promises were made and broken).

 

[Volourn]

"With this statement in mind, do you agree that the 'Stay on the path' system is inferior to the Baldurs gate1/Arcanum/Ultima 6-7 way of exploration? Doesn't this way of exploring make a linear game like BG1 seem less linear"

No.


"(particularly JE, a game where some similar promises were made and broken)."

No. No 'promises' were broken. This diea that everything (or most everything) a devloper says is a 'promise' is complete,. and utter bullshit. Things change during devlopment; doens't mean there were 'broekn promises' or 'lies'.

Ladonna: JE is BIO's best ROLE-PLAYING game even though the combat is more action based.

Period.

 

[Human Shield]

Second - You are tired of story driven rpg? Well, I'm bored of fuckers who think that non-linear gameplay is able to tell a good and coherent story, or a story at all. Look at Gothic3 - it has virtually no story and the Nameless Hero is not a character I care for. Look at Fallout (albeit a great game) - the story is minimal and I did only care for one NPC I worked with. Have you ever played a p&p game? There is a reason VtM was called a "story-telling-game" once...

Actually there is a difference between creating story and getting lead along by the DM's story.

Story can be done a lot of ways but fighting from cutscene to cutscene for "story" is pretty weak. Stories are about theme and premise. Designers give a standard save the world story, story shouldn't be weather the world will be saved or not but what it costs the characters and what decisions they make. JRPGs are able to just force your character to make decisions and sacrifice, a few Bioware games were able to at least have two path problem solving in areas.

The end of BG2 is a pretty good example, you are going to fight the bad guy but what do you give up between two options. Players probably thought more about those choices then the rest of the game put together, it brought story into gameplay. Doing things for free or for money isn't much of a choice.

This article is pretty complex but describes the theory.

Narrativism: Story Now

Most CRPGs are just simulating the genre story themes. Scripted events play out similar scenes from fantasy novels.

To get some story creation the game design would be designed to generate or script through Bangs:

GET TO THE BANGS!

Bangs are those moments when the characters realize they have a problem right now and have to get moving to deal with it. It can be as simple as a hellacious demon crashing through the skylight and attacking the characters or as subtle as the voice of the long-dead murder victim answering when they call the number they found in the new murder victim's pockets.

... It is the GM's job to present and, for lack of a better word, drive Bangs, in the sense of driving a nail or driving something home. In narrative terms, Bangs tend to come as one of the following: [list follows with details; to summarize: crisis to crisis, twist to twist, link to link, locale to locale - RE]

Ultimately, all of these elements provided by the GM are the same thing: a means for moving from decision to decision on the part of the players. Bangs are always about player-character responses.

This is why Bangs are not represented by many of the fight scenes or clues in traditional role-playing. Throwing mad hyenas at the player-characters is not a Bang if the only result of the fight is to wander into the next room. Nor is a clue a Bang at all if all it does is show where the next clue may be found. A real Bang gives the player options and requires his or her decision about how to handle it, which in turn reveals and develops the player-character as a hero.

A game design I would like to see would involve enough scripting to generate or just ear mark Bang events such as "challenge to sacrifice yourself", "outcome for love", "outcome for greed", "outcome for duty", etc...

First the player would design the player by setting passions, destiny, and maybe anti-destiny. Similar to Riddle of Story.

So the game then generates or the designers script a scene like a town is faced with a dragon from the mountain.

The difference is that the setup of the challenge is based on the character. If the character is a knight they get sent as a duty, if a thief they go for greed. The important point is that at least two or more outcomes fire at once. So the knight is courting a lady in the town and if he leaves she mite marry his friend, the thief is offered more money if he betrays his friends on the trip there.

Both outcomes would have tangible effects. So the knight mite escape with his girl but the town does get burned down. Real choices are foregone options.

The passions that the player picks aren't abstractions but (along with the ROS system) give tangible benefits. A character that fights for honor gets dice bonuses when he is fighting for such and he levels up by fighting or honor or his other passions, driving players in the same direction as the character. This also has the benefit of starting new characters instead of loading and trying all the paths with one.

Destinies could be the most interesting idea IMO. The fact that Sauron is going to be defeated isn't in question in LOTR, Conan isn't going to die at the start because he is destined to wear the Jeweled Crown. Letting players choose destiny is declaring the end game scenario and a personal goal to work towards, the main story could tie with the player becoming a king, finding a soul mate, sailing to the new continent, or being the richest guy in the world. This also lets designers sneak in multiple solutions while calling them different game modes, because players are much more likely to try and play all "campaign scenarios" then look for other stuff; you could even make some unlockable so all the casual gamers play them all and you get praised for 100s of hours of gameplay.

Anti-Destiny could also be awesome. This can add tragedy for NPCs or provide tragedy or challenging endings for players. "Be betrayed by a friend", "Killed by a lover", "Losing a loved one", "Being forgotten by history", "Sacrificing yourself for others", "Go insane", etc... This provides a draw that pulls the character towards tragedy and gives bonuses to the opposition at the end. It could be countered with a great enough effort thou.

JRPGs are linear and static but can provide large scale events by telling one story per world (D&D won't let a campaign world get shattered), and provide tragedy events. Aerie dieing could be randomly generated as leaving the party to try and save things and being killed by the Sep guy, but there would be a slight chance for survival (maybe by cashing in your own destiny for enough dice bonuses).

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

Than make a game that isn't typical "Story Driven BUT you can choose" than I will believe you.

Because Gaider decides what kind of games Bioware makes. Right.

If you come Representing a company, I will treat you as a whole company.