Dragon's Dogma II - "They’re masterworks, all – you can’t go wrong"

[DJOGamer PT]

Our basic movesets is the same since Demon's Souls

And the thing is, when you look at their mechanics there's not much reason to use anything other than your basic light attack chain
Aside from very few special attack found in "unique" weapons, none the other attacks have considerable distinctions in properties, none of them produce meaning changes in the enemy's state, none of them grant your PC cool movement option, fuck most aren't even significantly more powerful
So really, why bother?

Some people in response might say: "Well I can also complete that super hardcore action game with the LMB equivalent, so really that design isn't much better and you shouldn't be such a reducionist."
But these are not equal comparasions
Sure, you can complete those games by mostly relying on the weakest move, because they are generally the "safest" option, but they are not the most effective
Which is not the case for ER - in that game, the safest moves are always the most effective ones
And perhaps more importantly, they just aren't fun to use - and this is the reason why you don't see many players trying to learn the weapon movesets and playing creatively with them like you see in Nioh for example ; in From games there's just not any great advantage to this and in fact the games usually severely punish the player for it
It pretty clear their combat isn't designed for this and it's just not fun to play that in them
I guess this is partly why parries are so liked in Dark Souls, they about one of the few moves in the game that take some skill to pulll off and don't suck

Like you said the addition of Battle Arts in DS3 was a step in the right direction, but in the end they still kinda fall short and worst they are tied to a limited expendable resource...
Can you image if in Ninja Gaiden the player needed to consume magic or an item to perform the Izuna Drop?
Here's the coolest and the most powerful combination attack in the game, you can only use it 3 times before having to find a refill...

It'ìs more or less the gold standard in action RPGs.

I mean, Skyrim is also the "gold standard" in open world games...
So much so that ER clearly takes a few pages out of it's book...

I think you being on this forum for so long, should already know that: good design != popular/successful

Chances are that whatever "better alternative" you are thinking of while posting a smug and condescending little picture is at most on par with it

Well given the context, I was specifically thinking of DD (and Nioh as well, but that's always my go-to example on why From's combat isn't anything special)
And both those games, in regards to the their combat systems, are objectively so much better than any Fromsoft game since DeS, that it is not even funny or fair to make a comparasion between them

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I mean, Skyrim is also the "gold standard" in open world games...

Uh, no? It's not? it's not even mildly good, in general.
It's just a popular game.

I think you being on this forum for so long, should already know that: good design != popular/successful

Oh, don't worry. I do. But that's precisely the thing: I don't think the From Soft style of combat is just "popular". I find it generally VERY good.
Not flawless (because what is, really?) but good, nonetheless.

I'm not even saying that there aren't challengers who can claim to be (almost) just as good or at least of somewhat comparable appeal (Mount & Blade comes to mind, even if it's a bit of a different beast and wouldn't fit in the same type of game), but the insistence from some part of the user base of this forum to constantly dismiss the idea that FromSoft combat is good as "laughable" is in itself kind of a joke, especially given the shit the same people then go out of their way to defend (hello again, Piranha Bytes fans).

Well given the context, I was specifically thinking of DD (and Nioh as well, but that's always my go-to example on why From's combat isn't anything special)
And both those games, in regards to the their combat systems, are objectively so much better than any Fromsoft game since DeS, that it is not even funny or fair to make a comparasion between them

Well, I DEFINITELY disagree.
Not just with the general claim that these two series would be ahead, but also with the subtle implication that FS combat/encounter design peaked at DeS, when Sekiro is easily their best game in that sense, with ER a close second and BB coming third.

As far as I'm concerned Dragon's Dogma 2 is definitely not breaking new ground in that area and it barely feels like an improvement over the first. Hell, the downgrade from 6 to 4 selected abilities is already quite the bummer. Not to mention how in Capcom the designers don't seem to be capable of nailing the difficulty curve to save their lives. We aren't talking about a couple of fringe broken builds here. We are talking about the system breaking down entirely as you start putting few levels under your belt.

And even ignoring everything else that's bad with NIOH, its core combat goes a bit in its own way by being almost unnecessarily convoluted at times.
Not to mention that I can't really overlook the shitty itemization tied to it, because it's a fundamental part of the experience and what's dominating your gameplay loop constantly.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

the insistence from some part of the user base of this forum to constantly dismiss the idea that FromSoft combat is good as "laughable" is in itself kind of a joke

Just because it's not good, doesn't mean its bad
It's decent, its's adequate for what kind of game DeS, DS1 and DS2 were
But it's not good, as in: it's not doing anything particularly well (aside from presentation), it's design idea is good as a foundation but what's build upon on it is mostly flawed and there's not any significant mechanical depth
It was "sufficient" for what it was, while these games were more focused on the exploration, but now the focus shifted heavily towards combat

when Sekiro is easily their best game in that sense

Is it?

Dragon's Dogma 2 is definitely not breaking new ground in that area.

Ok
But that's not what it needed to be, nor what people wanted
DD2 combat just needed to be tigher - to have more distinct and simultaneously more mechanically complex actions, while also more effective and worthwhile to use - and have better enemy design
And guess what, it did just that
It corrected most of the issues of the original's combat and even built upon it some nice new things

Besides how can you consider DD2 disappointing for not "breaking new ground" in comparasion to its prequel
But then turn around and give From a thumbs-up for giving you the same combat system, for at least 5 times in almost 15 years now, with very marginal additions (most which imo decreased the quality)?
The math doesn't add up here chief...

 

[DJOGamer PT]

There's now a mod that lets players controls the amount of nearby npcs and enemies
https://www.nexusmods.com/dragonsdogma2/mods/351

It's made by a chinese and I am pointing this out, because funnily it seems nearly a third of DD2 mods on Nexus are by chinese players
Never seem any other game on Nexus whose modding scene had such a heavy chinese presence (didn't even know they were into modding)


Also for everyone which has had issues with the camera, here's a few mods:
Camera Tweaks
Mouse Wheel Camera Distance
Proper Camera Controls for PC
True Shoulder Camera
Disable Mouse Acceleration
Camera Input Sensivity Tweaker
Camera Adjustments

There's a photo mode but no free camera? What the fuck.

My guess is that they didn't want the player to use photo mode to gain unfair advantages (like to scout what's waiting ahead, etc)
The REFramework has a free camera option for that

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

So turns out

Spoiler

there is a pretty big dungeon next to the starting encampment full of saurians that also has a chimera

Spoiler

that also has a breakable wall leading into another dungeon full of undead including a lich

I wonder how many normies found it right at the start of the game, entered it, died and uninstalled the game.

Also fighting enemies like the chimera and the lich is a lot cooler than in DD1. In DD1 non-black chimeras barely did anything and liches mostly just floated around and died in 2 seconds to holy magic. Here they use a lot more different spells and can kill you quite easily if you're not careful.

I did find that dungeon but not the secret entrance to the other dungeon. I also avoided the Chimera because I was like lvl 5. It would have raped my ass. I wanna go back to it now. What was the name of it?

 

[Reinhardt]

(didn't even know they were into modding)

they are. they just usually don't bother sharing with big nosed barbarians.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

A few more updates and this will be one of the greatest games ever made. It's already better than Elden Ring even with it's herpes and genital warts. The possibilities of this game are endless.

It’s not even in the same league. Get fucking real.

And it’s even mildly disappointing as a sequel, generally speaking.
Very few improvements over the first and hardly any attempts to actually address the flaws of the original.

Starting with the brain dead difficulty curve and the shockingly idiotic idea to limit AGAIN the player to a single character, no matter what.

Horseshit. Elden Ring's world is completely static and scripted, aside from some of the quests. Every single time you replay it you will generally be having the exact same experience. Nothing will ever change. It doesn't have shit on DD2's emergent gameplay. And the boss fights are typical FS roll spam bullshit that they've been using ever since DkS3 but even more obnoxious. The boss fights in DD2 are infinitely more exciting.

 

[Turn_BASED]

List me the better alternatives with equally compelling mechanics and without the "game-breaking builds" and I will take your retardation seriously.
Well, honestly no. Let's say A BIT more seriously, at most.

It's also (somewhat) worth noting that you had to pick a two years old video from 20 rebalance patches before to make your point.

This one's from 2 weeks ago. Don't forget to take those goal posts with you:



Dark Souls combat mechanics were great in Dark Souls 1 before they added the anime moves.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

The comparison can be summed up like this: at a certain point I desperately wanted Elden Ring to end. I grew sick of the copy pasta shit, bosses, and the barren world. Alot of it's size is a giant farce.

DD2 on the other hand, I never want to end.

 

[Suicidal]

So turns out

Spoiler

there is a pretty big dungeon next to the starting encampment full of saurians that also has a chimera

Spoiler

that also has a breakable wall leading into another dungeon full of undead including a lich

I wonder how many normies found it right at the start of the game, entered it, died and uninstalled the game.

Also fighting enemies like the chimera and the lich is a lot cooler than in DD1. In DD1 non-black chimeras barely did anything and liches mostly just floated around and died in 2 seconds to holy magic. Here they use a lot more different spells and can kill you quite easily if you're not careful.

I did find that dungeon but not the secret entrance to the other dungeon. I also avoided the Chimera because I was like lvl 5. It would have raped my ass. I wanna go back to it now. What was the name of it?

I think it was just "Waterfall cave" or something equally unassuming.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

The comparison can be summed up like this: at a certain point I desperately wanted Elden Ring to end. I grew sick of the copy pasta shit, bosses, and the barren world. Alot of it's size is a giant farce.

DD2 on the other hand...

In DD2 on the other hand, that point was TEN HOURS into the game. as everything starts being repetition from there.
Well, it started being repetition before, it's just that ten hours is when you finally start to realize it.

Also, the world in Eldern Ring DOES remember an actual landscape worth exploring, rather than being the POORLY DISGUISED network of corridors in DD2.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Just because it's not good, doesn't mean its bad
It's decent, its's adequate for what kind of game DeS, DS1 and DS2 were
But it's not good

Uh, no.
We are just spinning our wheels at this point. We simply can't agree on basic statements so there's very little we can productively exchange.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

Agree to disagree. Over 70 hours in and the game still does things that surprise the hell out of me. Haven't even experienced dragon plague yet, or been to Bhataal (spelling?)

 

[Tyrr]

Who of you made this?
https://www.nexusmods.com/dragonsdogma2/mods/339

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

So turns out

Spoiler

there is a pretty big dungeon next to the starting encampment full of saurians that also has a chimera

Spoiler

that also has a breakable wall leading into another dungeon full of undead including a lich

I wonder how many normies found it right at the start of the game, entered it, died and uninstalled the game.

Also fighting enemies like the chimera and the lich is a lot cooler than in DD1. In DD1 non-black chimeras barely did anything and liches mostly just floated around and died in 2 seconds to holy magic. Here they use a lot more different spells and can kill you quite easily if you're not careful.

I did find that dungeon but not the secret entrance to the other dungeon. I also avoided the Chimera because I was like lvl 5. It would have raped my ass. I wanna go back to it now. What was the name of it?

I think it was just "Waterfall cave" or something equally unassuming.

This dungeon is badass. Also it's hilarious that it's right near the beginning on the main quest path. Feels like a FS style troll. I'm sure it filtered fuckloads of poor souls. I remember when I first went in there something immediately felt off about it so I backed out of there fairly quick.

 

[Echo Mirage]

Why is it that Archers should be one of the most useful classes yet are one of the most useless? Maybe its just the way people have them set up but they seem to all struggle with harpies. This was this reason I ended DD playing as a magic archer because of those god damned flying bitches.

 

[Mortmal]

Big difference with /v is I am playing the game

/vg/ is also playing the game and they also have not big complaints on bugs
Besides you know they can just scour the web for bug reports and videos
Not doubting that you had those unfortunate bugs, just doubting that they're that common for others
With the attention this game produced before launch, and the fact that it's Capcom's major release for this year, and the fact DD1 is cult game on 4chan since DA - there is just no way, those obssessive doomposters wouldn't have raised a stink about bugs right then in the game's first weekend

I'm afraid I'm head and shoulders above people in /v when it comes to autism and efficiency. I finish games faster, and overall, I get things done more quickly. There's no such thing as bad luck—only rushed development and poor quality control. I'm not the only one who noticed these issues; all it took was one weekend playing it.

 

[Alfgart]

Why is it that Archers should be one of the most useful classes yet are one of the most useless? Maybe its just the way people have them set up but they seem to all struggle with harpies. This was this reason I ended DD playing as a magic archer because of those god damned flying bitches.

Watching my own waifu archer pawn, I think the problem is archers try to hit flyers with charged skills like Heavenly Shot and Deathly Arrow, and they take forever to aim and fire. They should be using standard attacks or rapid firing skills on weak enemies, but they don't, for some reason they prefer the overkill attacks, and most of the time they get interrupted. Problem is, you can't just make an archer with only quick skills, because you really need those big charged moves to stagger big mobs and hit bosses weak points

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

Why is it that Archers should be one of the most useful classes yet are one of the most useless? Maybe its just the way people have them set up but they seem to all struggle with harpies. This was this reason I ended DD playing as a magic archer because of those god damned flying bitches.

Harpies have been trivial from the very beginning (I'm maining archer). Just spam regular arrows. I assume pawn archer AI tries to use charge skills against them.

 

[kites]

It's a shame there aren't many big dungeons (or at least I haven't found them yet). When I got to

Spoiler

Seafloor Shrine/Gran Soren?

and the newly opened entrance area I was expecting a dungeon or at least a puzzle or two, but the game is still holding out on me. I did like how disorienting it felt to walk inside. The quest I just did to get the Batahl blacksmith some ore had a decent-sized delve and was properly atmospheric walking around with my lantern off in the green lighting; unfortunate it's ending gore-minotaur "boss" was a pushover.

Harpies have been trivial from the very beginning

The version of them in Batahl were annoying to me at first. My pawns seemed like they had no idea what to do and were constantly getting picked up, and it's a bit annoying to just stand around and wait priming/timing an upward strike as a warrior.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

I'm afraid I'm head and shoulders above people in /v when it comes to autism and efficiency. I finish games faster, and overall, I get things done more quickly. There's no such thing as bad luck—only rushed development and poor quality control. I'm not the only one who noticed these issues; all it took was one weekend playing it.

This is such a weak flex. You didn't do anything special. You just rushed through the main quest like all the other normie retards.

 

[Anonona]

Also, the world in Eldern Ring DOES remember an actual landscape worth exploring, rather than being the POORLY DISGUISED network of corridors in DD2.

I just cannot agree with this. ER often times falls into the same trap that many open world games; big maps full of nothing. There is a good fucking reason they give you a horse, they are boring to navigate and way to big for they own good. Like, when you see Liurnia of the Lake, do you think the big lake full of random lobster and a few isles is interesting to navigate? Or do you prefer the north part of the map with actual interesting paths with challenges, like the tower with the eye of madness and the rats, the magic assault of the Royal Carian Family Mansion or the soldiers blocking the entrance to the elevator? Do you prefer the Consacrated Snowfield full of fucking nothing or MT. Gelmir with actual challenges to navigate and that requires you to find the right way to the manor? The best part of the open world in ER are those that are designed as actual levels for the player, even if they are less like landscape you want to explore and more like lanes or "corridors". Liurnia of the Lake may look pretty, it sure as hell ain't fun to explore until you reach the north half of the map.

DD2's map and biomes feel more like an expanded MH level. There are actually a surprising amount of encounters where they expect you or the monsters to use the topography for combat and many tunnels you can use as shortcuts to travel faster, going through mountains, while also having quite a decent variety on how the landscape is designed, with Bahtal being quite vertical, the north west part of Vermund being rocky mountains with a lot of climbing, the north east being forest that difficults navigation and so on and so forth. Even if the lack of difficulty fucked the execution, is obvious that great care has been given to make an actual interesting map.

What ER has, that makes it worth exploring isn't the map, which is lackluster. Instead the interesting locales are its main virtue: Legacy dungeons, the Underground and some unique mini-dungeons like the Carian Study Hall. All of those are fantastic, and DD2 is lacking on those. I'm a staunch defender that if you took out the open world from ER and then made an interconnected map using all these points of interest. the game would immediately be much better for it, or at least reduce the size of the map, cut down on fluff like mines, caves and catacombs, and get rid of the horse.

I'm afraid I'm head and shoulders above people in /v when it comes to autism and efficiency. I finish games faster, and overall, I get things done more quickly. There's no such thing as bad luck—only rushed development and poor quality control. I'm not the only one who noticed these issues; all it took was one weekend playing it.

Not that I disagree with any of that, you do sound like a speedrunner, but I haven't any significant bug as of yet. Maybe twice or thrice physics were a bit wonky (and I mean thrice, once a Saurian jumped into the air for no reason, once I got shot up slightly faster and higher than I should have when climbing the Talos and another time a Minotaur suddenly stood up, probably as a fail safe because it may had been stuck on the terrain). Maybe is my playstyle, I do like to take time and don't mind doing the least optimal thing just for fun so I didn't stress the game nor the engine.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Also, the world in Eldern Ring DOES remember an actual landscape worth exploring, rather than being the POORLY DISGUISED network of corridors in DD2.

I just cannot agree with this.

That sounds like a “you” problem, to me.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Those slimes have to be bugged. Sometimes its not possible to hit them and pawns will ignore them while I get stuck in them unable to escape.

Yeah, bugged like in tabletop AD&D. Go fight an animated mucous with your unenchanted sword and see how you make out. Then try and burn or freeze it (depending on type) and see how it goes.

I mean, this is well known enough even to have made it into trad jrpgs.

 

[Anonona]

That sounds like a “you” problem, to me.

Sorry, english is not my first language so I fuck up sometimes. What do you mean by this?

edit: I searched on the internet and I think it means something along the line of "Is your problem, I don't care", would be thankful if someone could confirm it. If that is the case, sorry if I said something that could bother you or something rude inadvertently then, perhaps I came off too intense in the last post and I swear it wasn't my intention.