Preview Drakensang preview at GamerNode

[MetalCraze]

we already have bg in 3d. for consoles.

but this one also sounds somewhat like... action rpg. "Baldurs Gate in 3D" - if it's bg1 then you know what to expect *sigh*

 

[Zetor]

So, another DSA game...
...have they fixed the clusterfuck that was their "character advancement system" yet?


-- Z.

 

[JoKa]

So, another DSA game...
...have they fixed the clusterfuck that was their "character advancement system" yet?


-- Z.

sorry to say so but: go to hell.

the char system's one of the best around...

 

[Zetor]

How is having to rely on random chance to improve your skills (even if your warrior only fights with swords, you can still fail the improvement roll on level-up and be LOCKED OUT of improving the skill) "the best system around"?

I asked an honest question... I feel the character system (more appropriately, the character advancement system) was one of the biggest things holding back the RoA series (which I DID enjoy, otherwise I wouldn't be interested in this game in the first place ;p). Randomness in char development should either only appear at character generation, or not come into play at all.


-- Z.

 

[thesheeep]

Randomness in char development should either only appear at character generation, or not come into play at all.

YES!

Exactly. This can't be said often enough.
But didn't they already come up with an alternative method?

 

[Teja]

Randomness in char development should either only appear at character generation, or not come into play at all.

YES!

Exactly. This can't be said often enough.
But didn't they already come up with an alternative method?

DSA in the 4. Edition, which is the base for Drakensang, don't use a random chance in the character generation or advancement system.

 

[Claw]

A pity noone's making a RoA game using DSA 4th edition. I pretty much lost all interest when they started pitching it as "Baldur's Gate 3D" and so far haven't been given any reason to reconsider.


PS: RoA3 played in a city with a small area outside, and it was great.

 

[Zetor]

Good to hear, 'cos that stuff was driving me crazy in Blades of Destiny and Star Trail.
Have to keep a closer eye on this game then...


-- Z.

 

[JoKa]

How is having to rely on random chance to improve your skills (even if your warrior only fights with swords, you can still fail the improvement roll on level-up and be LOCKED OUT of improving the skill) "the best system around"?

I asked an honest question... I feel the character system (more appropriately, the character advancement system) was one of the biggest things holding back the RoA series (which I DID enjoy, otherwise I wouldn't be interested in this game in the first place ;p). Randomness in char development should either only appear at character generation, or not come into play at all.


-- Z.

firstly, i want to apologise for not answering earlier (had an exam, so no time for that) and that i jumped on you like that. but what you describe as a 'honest question' concerning the char-advancement in your second post, was a 'clusterfuck' in your first, so i had to assume you dismissed the whole system, not only that part of it. you had, i falsely thought, thrown out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. your second post makes your point a lot more clear.

i concur, that randomness in RPGs isn't always good - but one does normally accept randomness in combat (do i hit my opponent or not? that's normally decided with a die-roll, i.e. random) so why not in char advancement? sometimes you learn your lesson, sometimes you don't, at least that's what i had always taken the random advances in skills and stats for (and i've played DSA 3rd Ed. for several years). it's a nightmare for powergamers, but is that all that RPGs are about? also: it's easier to advance skills/stats with lower values than raising them when they're already high - not that unrealistic, don't you agree?
i prefer fixed skill checks myself (PS-T's dialogue...), but that's only another model of reality, as inadequate as the random chance model is.

so, sorry for my instant negative reaction, i hope you now understand what that's been about.

 

[sheek]

How is having to rely on random chance to improve your skills (even if your warrior only fights with swords, you can still fail the improvement roll on level-up and be LOCKED OUT of improving the skill) "the best system around"?

I asked an honest question... I feel the character system (more appropriately, the character advancement system) was one of the biggest things holding back the RoA series (which I DID enjoy, otherwise I wouldn't be interested in this game in the first place ;p). Randomness in char development should either only appear at character generation, or not come into play at all.


-- Z.

You roll dice all the time in most RPGs. Almost everything (except GM decisions, and stuff like dialog) depends on chance.

In D&D you rolls stats, you roll hit points every level. Theoretically you could have a level 10 fighter with 10 hit points (less than a level 2 rogue)... but the chance of that is 0%. You could fumble every single save roll you ever make. You could have a level 25 fighter and roll natural 1's on every attack and damage roll - that's life.

There's no fundamental difference between those rolls and rolls during char gen. You can get bad results at one levelup, and very good results at the next, or simply be luckier at all other rolls in general.

On the other hand, chance to improve is realistic. People do not follow a linear trend of becoming stronger or more skilled. You can get unexpected insights, or learn tricks, and suddenly are much better, or a lot of time and learn nothing. But in the long run the more effort (XP) you put in the better you'll get, unless you are really extremely unlucky.

Over six levels in ROA1 with 20 skill improvement chances per level and six characters it all balances out to about the same.

 

[Zetor]

JoKa: Fair enough... and I don't really have a problem with the skill system myself other than the advancement model. I actually agree with the 'higher the skill gets, the harder it should be to improve' idea (Codex - hungarian RPG, the name similarity is a coincidence - has a similar system), but there are much better ways to do it than a simple random roll. Make maxing skills take more skill points [obvious], make the player have to do certain things, make it take a lot of time (you want to be a master swordsman? Cool, it'll only take 5 years... or you can only improve it once every 2/3/4/5 levels, etc).. it is generally not realistic to expect player characters to have the BEST sword/spell skills on the planet.

sheek: Not really, since you get only three attempts per skill per levelup. If you get unlucky on all three rolls, you're locked out from improving the skill until the next levelup. Since you didn't get many levelups at all in RoA2 (the one of the three I played the most), I consider this a pretty big problem.

Consider that random skill improvement is an uncontrollable factor that can completely 'gate' your progress (without player choice coming into it).
- I am ok with dying in JA2 to a lucky crit headshot because I was stupid and ended my turn outside cover with a sniper around
- I'm ok with getting into an unlucky random encounter in FO because I set my character's luck to 2
- I'm ok with fumbling a charisma roll in PS:T because I didn't build up my charisma / use possible enhancing items
- I'm ok with the entire party dying messily in Champions of Krynn due to an enemy mage getting lucky with a confusion spell [and me not keeping appropriate protection spells up], I'll just reload the last save
- I'm ok with my BG2 cleric getting 1 hp each levelup roll, I can just use a magic item ("belt of 18 const") or buff spells to improve his hitpoints via the constitution bonus
but
- I'm NOT ok with the game itself telling me "oh, your swordsman is not good enough to improve his sword skill. Sucks to be you!" or "yeah, your magic user uses Lightning and Fulminictus a lot, but you still can't improve it"
My point is simply, random factors entirely outside player control are generally Not Cool, especially when they affect a game in a fundamental way [in this case, character development].


-- Z.