Dungeon Rats - first impressions and general feedback

[Atchodas]

The problem is that DR is so good nobody considers it a filler cash grab lol.

Agreed , should be an industry standard of how those are done . Hats of for ITS once again

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm missing the point in this discussion ,
AoD had these "special" weapons with history n everything that ,
DR does not have it because of the same reasons it has no other cool stuff that AoD had : short development time , low price , filler game with reused assets and so on .

DR doesn't have it because it's a prison. Hardly a place for unique weapons with long history. We added the 'hides armor' which was more fitting and a lot more work. In comparison drawing an icon and writing a few words are as easy as it gets.

You will find special weapons in AoD such as the dagger you obtain after saving a guy from three toughs in Maadoran. This weapon has a story, it’s a family gift, and a name. This is more interesting because it adds personality, instead of being just another quality weapon with X% of THC. My point is that YOU COULD ELABORATE A BIT MORE WHAT YOU ALREADY DID without sacrificing realism. Providing top quality weapons is good. Providing top quality weapons with a context is even better.

No arguing here, but it has to make some sense. So let's forget about AoD because it's done and talk about the CSG. We have old energy weapons still in circulation and 'rediscovered' firearms, some based on the old Earth models, others new and 'improved'. They range from utter crap to pretty awesome (based on the smith's skills and access to machinery/materials). What are you expectations when it comes to descriptions?

 

[Lurker King]

The problem is that DR is so good nobody considers it a filler cash grab lol.

Agreed, should be an industry standard of how those are done . Hats of for ITS once again

Thank God I have ITS and Overhyped Studios doing the quality cRPGs I want. Otherwise, I would have to play old stuff forever. AoD spoiled and ruined completely. If I don't need to fiddle too much with the character system or the writing is retarded, I lose interest really fast.

No arguing here, but it has to make some sense. So let's forget about AoD because it's done and talk about the CSG. We have old energy weapons still in circulation and 'rediscovered' firearms, some based on the old Earth models, others new and 'improved'. They range from utter crap to pretty awesome (based on the smith's skills and access to machinery/materials). What are you expectations when it comes to descriptions?

I don’t know, but any little detail is better than just numbers. The weapon could be found on a dustbin inside of a capsule with a nickname on it, etc. I think your problem is that you are assuming that it needs to be some important event in order to provide an important item, but that is false. Someone could have the deadliest knife ever known to humanity, but used it just to slice meat. One good example is Sabra Marie on Wasteland 2. You find the weapon on a backpack hanging from a red crane. The weapon has an inscription “SB. If ever I leave you, use these, my gifts to you, to find my heart. WB.” The weapon is not particularly good, because it has a wide range of damage, varying from 200 points of critical damage to 2, but it has personality. You don’t need to invent nothing extraordinary, just mess around with what you got in the setting. It is not different from creating a new character or situation.

 

[Fenix]

I remember that in various adventure books, like Alfred Shkliarsky series of Tomek or Louis Bussenar there were cases when people gave names to their weapon, also I can't bring examples, and not sure if in novellas of Fenimore Cooper that took place.
It seems psychologically logical that when firearms was rare, not common like today, someone could give name to it.
So in case of rare personal weapon that make sense, but not in other.
Otherwise it is the same as call your sexual organ "King Krull" - yeah, you give a name to it, but it is something special only for you, otherwise unremarkable.

 

[Darth Roxor]

So, Vault Dwellerino, in case you didn't know yet, your constructs are tarded:

I basically killed all of them here by just opening door -> shooting -> closing before the last one finally had the bright idea to open it on its own.

except that its bright idea of attacking me was spamming shield bash despite me having made a conga line to disable it

also here I can shoop through the door and hit the one fucker in the corner, while all he does is miss me when shooting back

also this guy shouldnt be here methinks

also attack rating doesn't show my waffe giving me +15 thc, re-equipping and all the other shit doesn't werk, might be a stat (or just character screen) bug
edit: actually nvm it does take into account the +15 in the top "attack" rating by the portrait

 

[Tigranes]

It's not that. If I ever get a chance to work on a game with magical weapons, I'd gladly write a story for each weapon, explaining how it came into the world, but with the normal weapons, no matter how well forged, the options are limited.

Here is the one of the top knife makers, his knives go for 3k and there is a years long waiting list:

His knives are special (I don't own one for the record but I've seen them) not because there is a special little extra, but because the craftsmanship and precision are top notch. The differences between a $100-knife and a $3000-knife are the skills of the maker (40% of the price), the process (completely hand-forged vs stock removal, for example; clay tempering, etc - there's a reason why cheap blades have a fake hamon line; that's another 40%), material and finish (about 20%). Time spent would go into the process. If it takes you two weeks to make a knife, you won't sell it for a 100 bucks. So as you can see, there's very little 'magic' there and very little room for 'he added some notches' unless the story is about how he ruined a good knife.

You've presented this argument several times and I agree with the basic logic, but I think it's become a kind of landslide. Obviously the knife is not defined by some fundamentally different property no other knives has, and to the uninitiated it might look indistinguishable. But as a consequence of his reputation, you'd often see people refer to it, say, as "a Lurguin", a "vintage Lurguin" - just like we'll talk about Deutsche Gramophone for vinyl, or whatnot. Hell, you can easily imagine a scenario where a Lurguin is also identifiable by aesthetic decisions, e.g. a signature blue handle or whatever. I don't think it's particularly impossible for you to spin out believable in-setting stories attached to unique items, where some veteran knifewielder becomes known for his rugged blue Lurguin, or whatever.

Where I do think there's a big limitation is the gameplay bonuses you can put on such unique items. It's clear you don't want to go the nu-Fallout route where a fucking science robe gives +2 to science, and I fully agree. So then the above rugged blue Lurguin might be a little sharper, a little easier to handle - in other words, the same kind of bonuses the Enforcer's sky metal gladius has in DR - but nothing 'unique'.

I'm curious to see how, unique or not, you address item/loot in CSG - whether we're going to see a very systematic, linear set of bonuses like in AOD, what kind of parameters are going to be there. Presumably the addition of firearms, etc. gives a bit more leeway.

 

[Tigranes]

Anyway, finished a 4-man CHA10 Throwing playthrough. Definitely easier than solo and 3-man, though maybe my experience plays a role there. There's just way too many options available that make things exponentially easier once you have that many party members. Giving your main 4 CON and basically no points in Def until later doesn't matter, he can just sit at the back and nobody ever pays attention. A well-timed net/knockdown is devastating because then 4 people can have a go at raping you one by one. The only problem is that sometimes you have too many people and can't make use of the smaller bottlenecks.

You're also rewarded with some powerful allies - Yngvar is great, I never even had to use Construct and Demon but they look good for the finale - and get a free pass out of the one guy early on and the finale. Given that it'd be difficult to have ANY character that couldn't take on the first 2 waves of the finale, that basically gives the ending a free pass. I don't think it's particularly imbalanced, since it can be a bit challenging at the start, it's nice to have unique rewards, and solo should be harder, but there it is.

Might be more or less tapped out on the options, since you can already try so many different builds through the companions...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Where I do think there's a big limitation is the gameplay bonuses you can put on such unique items. It's clear you don't want to go the nu-Fallout route where a fucking science robe gives +2 to science, and I fully agree. So then the above rugged blue Lurguin might be a little sharper, a little easier to handle - in other words, the same kind of bonuses the Enforcer's sky metal gladius has in DR - but nothing 'unique'.

That's how we did it in AoD. The unique weapons have slightly better stats and better bonuses.

I'm curious to see how, unique or not, you address item/loot in CSG - whether we're going to see a very systematic, linear set of bonuses like in AOD, what kind of parameters are going to be there. Presumably the addition of firearms, etc. gives a bit more leeway.

- damage (mainly the difference between different weapon types within each group, plus a small increase with each new tier, representing the overall quality and precision)
- accuracy (most guns would have penalties there to account for poor craftsmanship and/or recoil), high skill will negative it
- rate of fire in action points
- range (will play a stronger role than in AoD as there are many 'short range' firearms like multibarrel pistols that would be very ineffective at long range
- magazine size
- reload time

3 groups: pistols, rifles, SMGs; 3 subgroups to ensure you can have plenty of room within your specialization. Take pistols, for example: you have revolvers, which is your standard gun with average stats. Then you have long barrel pistols (basically pistol-rifle if you need range and accuracy at a lower rate of fire), then you have multi-barrel pistols which have low range but pack a much stronger punch, especially if you empty all barrels at someone. It's less linear than AoD with a lot more choices and tactical considerations. Plus there are variations within each subgroups (there are generic, "mass produced" guns for every tier, "special order" models made for people who appreciate quality, and unique, one of a kind weapons.

 

[MF]

I never liked dungeon crawlers, but as it turns out the concept is great if you leave out filler combat and grinding. Every encounter is fun and engaging and just like AoD, you don't waste the player's time with bullshit. Hats off.

I bought the game, downloaded it and finished it in two marathon sittings in what was a really busy week for me. Just one more fight...one more try and I'll win this one. I couldn't stop, it's so addictive.

 

[Cadmus]

Guys I'm really stuck on the Emperor fight. I got Roxana, Marcus and my spear guy and I have no idea what to do. Tried rushing to the right to the axe guy and pwn him, won't do. Tried focusing the emperor, won't do. Everybody deals really high damage. Any tips?

 

[Goral]

Post your save game (upload it to boxnet/dropbox/googledrive/2shared or something like that).

 

[Darth Roxor]

Guys I'm really stuck on the Emperor fight. I got Roxana, Marcus and my spear guy and I have no idea what to do. Tried rushing to the right to the axe guy and pwn him, won't do. Tried focusing the emperor, won't do. Everybody deals really high damage. Any tips?

Here's wot I did:

Essential gear: 2 neurostims, 2 nets

You start by putting roxana in the back, your dude on the right as close to the axe thrower as possible, marcus a bit to the left of the protag.

Combat is on -> Protag kicks in neurostim and bumrushes the axe thrower with arterial strikes (he should be dead by the start of turn 2, can even try zerk potion); Roxana pops neurostim and shoops barbed arterials at the crossbowman (he should be dead by the start of turn 2 or 3); now your protag will get bumrushed by axeman, Marcus will get bumrushed by the remaining dudes, probably netted and bruised.

After the first turn, Roxana is supposed to take out the ordu bowman the same way as the xbow guy (arterials), your dude should keal the axe wielder (he's a scrublord but does lots of damage), while Marcus must net the emprah and try to survive before his net goes off. If you get to this stage, you should be smooth sailing to win, because after Marcus' net runs out, you: KD the emprah, then shoop two arterial barbed strikes into him with Roxy while he's down, and protag should by now be done with the javelin thrower. Ordu spearman dude is a scrub and can be knocked out easily.

Mission complete, time for brandy.

Depending on your protag's build I guess you can switch his and Marcus' positions and roles at the start.

 

[Whisper]

http://riotpixels.com/dungeon-rats-review/

Dungeon rats review, very favourable.

 

[MediantSamuel]

Guys I'm really stuck on the Emperor fight. I got Roxana, Marcus and my spear guy and I have no idea what to do. Tried rushing to the right to the axe guy and pwn him, won't do. Tried focusing the emperor, won't do. Everybody deals really high damage. Any tips?

Liquid fire is amazing if you have any, probably my most used tool. You can block off the emperor and his side while you focus on the side with fewer enemies.

 

[Eyestabber]

http://riotpixels.com/dungeon-rats-review/

Dungeon rats review, very favourable.

Clicked the link and...



Guess I'm gonna have to take your word for it.

Guys I'm really stuck on the Emperor fight. I got Roxana, Marcus and my spear guy and I have no idea what to do. Tried rushing to the right to the axe guy and pwn him, won't do. Tried focusing the emperor, won't do. Everybody deals really high damage. Any tips?

Eagle Eye Neurostim + Barbed Bolts + Double Xbow = Roxana can kill the crossbowman on the very first turn, which will drastically reduce your missile related problems. Nets will also reduce the archer's THC by a whole lot. If all else fails, remember that you can give shields to dodgers to gain vsRanged bonuses. Check part 4 of my ironman run (guide thread), my build is similar and I have the (almost) the same NPCs.

 

[Darth Roxor]

everybody dead

i like that

also vault dwellerino, i dunno if ur aware of this yet, but the enemies in yer game are really tarded

door, the secret mvp party member

 

[Cadmus]

dude, fuckin spoiler the outdoor areas...well now it's too late but I had no idea there were any

 

[Darth Roxor]

cuz all those talks about guards in the fort outside the mine that go on through the whole game just dont make it at all obvious that you're gonna have to clobber them into the ground

also muh spoilers in a beat em up

 

[Cadmus]

no...

 

[Cadmus]

Oh yeah baby! I curb-stomped the pussy centurions in the final fight!
I think this was maybe the only game where all my saved consumables were actually used for that final fight. Really the only game. I spammed fire, bombs, zerk pots. Awesome fight.

The emperor was way more frustrating than this, I finally beat him by getting better alchemy and the 7dmg poison, rushing the right weaker side with my super spear guy, getting all lucky headshots on the crossbowman in the first round, killing him, and keeping Marcus out of danger with lots of fires because he was the weakest one. Once the enemies were isolated properly, my spear guy just fucking tore through them without losing a single HP. Emprah got netted and beaten in the head with a hammer and impaled on a spear and I also bombed him for good measure, just to make sure Marcus doesn't bite it.

The last battle I wasted almost all my consumables on the penultimate fight cuz I thought it was over but then the centurion came forward with another wave so I fell back and headshotted everybody with Roxana while keeping the enemies at bay with zerked spear which is pretty cool actually, should have tried it earlier, especially for the passive. The archers in this game are really dangerous so I risked and used headshots instead of sniping to get more of them at the same time and it just barely worked.

Too bad I never found enough blue steel to craft a nice heavy armor, only used it for War Hammer and arrows which ran out because I wasn't expecting such a protracted battle.
While the game is extremely linear, there were a few things I obviously missed so I guess I'll replay with a bigger party but not in the near future because this was pretty exhausting. I also used the doors to defeat the super construct trio, I don't see how could I have done it otherwise. It did nothing anyway, didn't move me towards an important skill and I didn't have the whatever thing you need for that device back there so I don't know what it did or how to get it to work.

I know VD only wanted to do something to fill time but I would have appreciated it if there were at least a few more dialogues because the writing is so much fun.

Now that I'm done, here's some criticism (pointless since TITS won't be supporting this game much longer):

- the portraits should display the buffs/debuffs description on mouse-over
- I can't tell who is who in the portrait row, I know the art is a problem but I don't know, at least name the portraits like Archer, Crossbowman or something so I know if the 3 HP poisoned guy I don't need to shoot is the archer or not
- I got some bug in the final fort area where I couldn't target (no reticule showed) the enemies coming out of the second house when they were cca 5-6 squares around the door so I just let them kill themselves on my spear guy, lol

 

[34scell]

The room at the top of the stairs outside has a fight with two sets of blue steel armour

 

[Black Angel]

I'm currently done with the second facility fight and now get to choose between the medbot and the Emprah. Any tips for me before choosing to go for either one?

And not just combat/strategy tips. Any tips in terms of what companions to bring, what equipment to wear (and what material), any product of alchemy I had to use? Ismail and Hieron at 9 in Alchemy and Crafting, respectively. My MC is 4/10/8/6/4/8, with 8 in Sword and 10 in Dodge, currently wielding Steel Scimitar I salvaged from the first Forge fight and wearing Reinforced Leather Armor. Only had 2 Splash Acid and 1 Regular Acid vials.

 

[Fenix]

http://riotpixels.com/dungeon-rats-review/

Dungeon rats review, very favourable.

Yeah, but in comments you can see usual "it is too hard for my sofa" crowd, mostly consolized, who rave about how combat systen is unfair, and "you always miis at 75% THC" and "spearman is good for defence but has nuffing for offence" looooooooool. Faggots, I hate them.
Crowd there used to be a hardcore players ten years ago, now they are popamolers with hardcore background.
But anyway there is some quantity of hardcore players anyway on site and forum, so it isn't useless to reach them, it is the only more or less mainstream gaming site that still has hardcore players in active.

Edit: I hate them even MORE because after two banned accounts there (also last was self-eject) they seems to ban me for creating new account, registration just doesnt happens, I'm not a programmist in any way, maybe that just ban my IP for registration purpose.
If someone know how to solve this - plz help.

 

[Fenix]

Btw Fidel Castro has died. R.I.P. Fidel...

 

[makiavelli747]

I'm currently done with the second facility fight and now get to choose between the medbot and the Emprah. Any tips for me before choosing to go for either one?

To do medbot take Roxana and equip her with bleu steel knifes. Fall back and wait for two constructs to get close, pin them with liquid fire and kill via liquid fire or knifes. And don't forget about shields.
The next one could be done in pretty much same way... throw liquid fire to block the path for melee enemies and poison all shooters in first round, then bomb or kill Emperor in any other way you like.