Dungeon Rats - first impressions and general feedback

[Fenix]

I see consoletards in Poland same as in Russia. Oh well...

 

[Zanzoken]

He mentions the game looking dated. I may be in the minority but over time I've gotten to where I appreciate AoD art direction a lot.

Obviously it isn't good based on the criteria of verisimilitude or stylistic interpretation. The grafix whores were never going to be impressed and they weren't intended to be. What the art is very good at, though, is communicating information to the player in a straightforward and non-intrusive way.

The word I would use to describe it is "effective" which may not seem like high praise. But I think it's really nice to not be bombarded by things like cartoonish color schemes and sparkly attack animations. Sometimes it's nice to have a break from spectacle and just focus on playing the game.

 

[Lurker King]

I got the impression that when people complain that the game is unpolished or ugly, what they really mean is that the interface is not friendly or that the camera and controls are somewhat clunky, which is true. DR was a yuge improvement over AoD in that departament, but you still feel that. Of course, the almost inexistent general art direction also makes things worse than they seem.

 

[TigerKnee]

Don't know what he meant with grandmother quip though...

Polish grandmas are hardcore, Mondblut-tier tactical junkies.

 

[Azael]

And thus ends the tale of Commander Boreale's escape from prison.

I have to say using whirlwind with a meteor two-handed axe on zerk potion and killing 5 dudes with one hit is hilarious as all shit.

Also, WTF?

Spoiler

This was the last dude in the fight, so it was not friendly fire.

I think he actually hit ME and killed me, but then immediately died to the poison, which made me warp into the next wave of slaughter pavillon without gameover. But I can't say for sure cuz x4 animation speed.

I had plants hitting themselves with ranged attacks in my last run and they are immune to poison/bleeding so can't have been that, not sure if bug or if VD included critical failures and forgot to tell us.

 

[Goral]

Something I've noticed as well: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7217.msg148484.html#msg148484

Where I think AoD fails design-wise is in welcoming stubborn players. Those that complain that it's a) too hard (it's not), b) requires meta-gaming (it doesn't) and c) it has too little content (it most certainly does NOT).

I agree that the game is hard to get into and we will certainly do a better job with the CSG without streamlining anything, but we can't make people like the game when they really don't want to. As you say yourself, it's not too hard, it doesn't require meta-gaming or min-maxing, it doesn't have too little content, etc. If they can't figure it out, most likely the game isn't for them.

Look at Dungeon Rats. We added difficulty levels, which didn't stop some people from claiming that the game is too hard and impossible. It's actually quite interesting - new players are used to Hard being normal/easy, so they play it solo on Hard as their first playthrough, die a lot and remain unimpressed. Every day I'm reading new claims - daggers are useless (they aren't), can't beat the game solo on Hard (you can), can't beat the game with a blocker (you can), can't beat the game with a spearman dodger (you definitely can), can't beat the game without alchemy (you can), can't beat the game without min-maxing (you can) or without max party (you can), etc.

It's an uphill battle and we aren't going to fight it because we can't win it. These complaints are what led to streamlining in the first place (see Blackguards 2 which took the complaints to heart and sold fuck all).

 

[Aenra]

Read again ffs, he's stating the exact opposite. He is saying there is no fighting it (read: attempting to address it), lest you become forced to continually downgrade until you reach decline levels.
Ergo, they won't attempt (to fight it), ergo their 'difficulty' will remain more or less as is.

 

[Goral]

Read again ffs, he's stating the exact opposite. He is saying there is no fighting it (read: attempting to address it), lest you become forced to continually downgrade until you reach decline levels.
Ergo, they won't attempt (to fight it), ergo their 'difficulty' will remain more or less as is.

WTF? You're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say here. I only said that I've noticed as well that despite having additional difficulty levels, tips/tutorial and many other convenient additions there are still many gamers saying the game is too hard and many of those refuse to lower difficulty just like some fat woman wants a shoe size 4 instead of 6 to feel more skinny (1m 29s).


I'm quoting Vince not Morbus, his post is added to give some more context but it seems it had the opposite effect.

 

[Fenix]

WTF? You're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say here. I only said that I've noticed as well that despite having additional difficulty levels, tips/tutorial and many other convenient additions there are still many gamers saying the game is too hard and many of those refuse to lower difficulty just like some fat woman wants a shoe size 4 instead of 6 to feel more skinny (1m 29s).

Yeah, I'm reading regularly DR's steam forum, and it is a pain how stupid people can be.
But that's all about culture and modern education system.
As I wrote there - there are players who pay attention and tried different tactics, and there are those who want faceroll whole game, second just want games as ego strokes.

 

[Lurker King]

Look at Dungeon Rats. We added difficulty levels, which didn't stop some people from claiming that the game is too hard and impossible. It's actually quite interesting - new players are used to Hard being normal/easy, so they play it solo on Hard as their first playthrough, die a lot and remain unimpressed. Every day I'm reading new claims - daggers are useless (they aren't), can't beat the game solo on Hard (you can), can't beat the game with a blocker (you can), can't beat the game with a spearman dodger (you definitely can), can't beat the game without alchemy (you can), can't beat the game without min-maxing (you can) or without max party (you can), etc.

The moral lesson is that either difficulty levels should be able to make your game easier than Skyrm to please popamoles or they should be removed.

Yeah, I'm reading regularly DR's steam forum, and it is a pain how stupid people can be.
But that's all about culture and modern education system.
As I wrote there - there are players who pay attention and tried different tactics, and there are those who want faceroll whole game, second just want games as ego strokes.

It's not just stupidity, it's also laziness accompanied by wrong expectations and lack of knowledge. You have misinformed people thinking that KOTOR 2 is an oldschool game.

 

[Old One]

I got the impression that when people complain that the game is unpolished or ugly, what they really mean is that the interface is not friendly or that the camera and controls are somewhat clunky, which is true.

I definitely noticed the improvement in camera controls from AoD to DR. In fact, that was one of my first reactions: "Ahh...they fixed the camera!"

Hopefully the DR camera control makes its way into AoD.

 

[Lurker King]

Goral, good cRPGs are positional goods.

 

[MF]

Of course, the almost inexistent general art direction also makes things worse than they seem.

What the fuck are you talking about? The art is nothing if not consistent and cohesive. It's clearly done on a budget, but it's well thought out. If you want to know what a lack of art direciton looks like, look at Jeff Vogel's mish mash of stock art, Wasteland 2's garish models or, in higher budgets, Fallout 3 with its inconsistent art style and bullshit power armor. At least Fallout 4 improved on that. Yes, AoD's art direction is superior to Fallout 3's. The art, with the exception of maybe the portraits, obviously isn't, but something tells me you can't tell the difference.

AoD's style is consistently gritty. Everything contemporary is Roman and brown, everything ancient is sci-fi Egyptian and blue and everything foreign is Aztec or Mongolian. Nothing too original -The sci-fi Egyptians are a more believable Stargate ripoff- , but the direction is solid.

 

[agris]

I remember the first time i played AoD how surprised I was at the quality of the portraits. They hold their own with any AAA, and are arguably better.

I still don't understand how double bear, sharing resources with ITS, could produce such abominable portraits.

 

[Stakhanov]

Just wanted to thank VD and his team for this game, you beautiful bastards. I haven't been simultaneously as angry/elated at getting through battles in a long time, such as those goddamn ants + queen or Barca after getting crushed by his critical strikes and eagle-eyed archer (survived the latter with 2 hp and 2 enemies to go shouting at the screen like I was betting on horses). This is on a solo murderous run by the way. The early game is particularly rough, but with careful hoarding of skill points and resources I've been able to muddle through. It's the most enjoyable combat arena this side of Knights of the Chalice by far.

Accurate representation of Barca fight:

 

[Stakhanov]

Based on forum discussions, I thought that it'd be smoother sailing after the ant rape gangs and Barca, but no. Now there's worms that I dunno how the fuck to deal with and gangbangers that spam nets and bombs ruthlessly like the dark age version of LA. It's nice to see that the game keeps ramping up, and that the AI that makes full use of the mechanics. Maybe my low-int, alchemy over crafting spearman is just feeling the pain of not having anything better than shitty bronze weapons yet.

Grueling game, but I respect its purity of vision in fucking me over at every turn

 

[Rivmusique]

Convenience features I'd really like to see added:

A keyboard input to do what clicking an equipped weapon does (cycle through attack options)

An input to cycle through nearby corpses in the order shown in the drop-down list while looting

Grouping schematics by type and in a consistent order (eg. 4ap sword, 5ap sword, 5ap sword, 6ap 2hand sword ..... 4ap axe, 5ap axe... Armour by max AP)

 

[MrMarbles]

Oh, that sucks. I expected another option. Love the game though, my solo spear/dodge run was intense. Never played a spear build in AoD, but holy shit is that passive amazing once you have some ranks in. Dodge was mostly for ranged enemies, melee ones could barely reach me.

Spear is best passive. If you ask me, its overpowered.

There is reason only spear-users can do ironman runs.

Been trying to do psycho, solo, ironman. Still haven't made it all the way (just getting past Barca is a pain), but spear seems like a solid option so far.

 

[Emmanuel2]

Oh, that sucks. I expected another option. Love the game though, my solo spear/dodge run was intense. Never played a spear build in AoD, but holy shit is that passive amazing once you have some ranks in. Dodge was mostly for ranged enemies, melee ones could barely reach me.

Spear is best passive. If you ask me, its overpowered.

There is reason only spear-users can do ironman runs.

Been trying to do psycho, solo, ironman. Still haven't made it all the way (just getting past Barca is a pain), but spear seems like a solid option so far.

I think spear is the first and only build as of now that is able to do Psycho Solo Ironman.

I got clears in Psycho Solo but not with Ironman yet.

 

[Whisper]

Been trying to do psycho, solo, ironman. Still haven't made it all the way (just getting past Barca is a pain), but spear seems like a solid option so far.

Spear is only option for ironman.

 

[MrMarbles]

Been trying to do psycho, solo, ironman. Still haven't made it all the way (just getting past Barca is a pain), but spear seems like a solid option so far.

Spear is only option for ironman.

I'm not sure about that. I've been toying around with a pure throwing weapons build. Mid-late game it is pure domination (found that out with a failed ironman save; anything armored is absolutely destroyed with the chance to bypass, and you can poison 4-6 enemies in the opening round), the trouble is getting past the opening chapter with only javelins and rocks... My next attempt will invest a few SP into spear (1/4 chance to interrupt for a single inventory slot is golden), but dump the rest in dodge and ranged. Throw, step back, nets in a crisis, cross fingers. INT probably needs to be low, for more of that early-game STR and PER hitting power. It will hurt in the long run, but the weakness of this build isn't late game anyway. Another question is CON: do you go for glass cannon at 6, or the safe option of 8-10.

No idea if this is viable, but will give it a few attempts.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Daggers and hammers do quite well too, based on what's been posted.

 

[Whisper]

Daggers and hammers do quite well too, based on what's been posted.

Thank you, i will test them.

 

[Lurker King]

The inventory is a mess and is making my OCD go nuts. I should be able to group the same types of items, no?

 

[Zanzoken]

I agree that the game is hard to get into and we will certainly do a better job with the CSG without streamlining anything, but we can't make people like the game when they really don't want to.

Does this mean adjusting the difficulty curve? Because I think one legit criticism of AoD is that Teron was the hardest area and Ganezzar the easiest.

DR seems to have improved on this by at least making the combat more challenging over the entire game. And if that is the only design goal then okay, but possibly you could retain more players by making it a bit more forgiving in the beginning.[/quote]