Dungeon Rats - first impressions and general feedback

[Emmanuel2]

One of us! (Solo hard ironman still worth without achievement)

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

seeing how you can be eradicated in a single combat round even with maxed out defense if you're unlucky : I believe that everybody who finishes the game on murderous psychopath solo iron man is a cheater who backs up his saves.
If you honestly want to tell me it's possible to finish this game on ironman without backing up your saves: make a continuous video without breaks like Eyestabber did for AoD.

 

[Goral]

One of the newest Steam reviews: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198000938806/recommended/531930/

I like hard games, and this game just bends you over and rapes you raw. If you didn't play the first game, you'll have no idea what you're going into, will end up around 6 hours in, and find out your only option to progress is to cheat or restart. Game is overly reliant on RNGesus.

Cult following (including devs) is ridiculously toxic.

@Vince - I have already uninstalled - so I can't post a SS unfortunately. I had been set up with 6s and an 8 in Int and Cha with pretty much all of my points in Spear and Dodge with a few in block/crafting; (forgive me for not remembering my party member's names, they barely said anything in the game. The Hammer guy from the beginning, the Crossbowman you can convince to trade sides, and the half-blind Legionnaire guy). I played on the standard AoD difficulty - it warns you that you'll die alot, but I can't say that I take that sort of thing at face value - as a sort of random comparison, I tend to succeed fairly ably at things like XCOM2's Impossible/Ironman modes without needing to resort to savescumming. This game seemed a large engagement in frustration, with very very low chances to succeed at even basic manuevers.

My progress was halted at the fight with Reinard. There are 2-3 battles immediately before that grant little to zero healing afterwards, and I was generally just screwed over by bad luck with crits / ability damage that I was unable to recover from. The thing was, I had been completely able to handle the fights leading up to them without an overmuch difficulty - the scorpions in the caves gave me minor trouble, but I got past them in 2-3 tries. Reinard and the preceding encounters basically wiped the floor with me - triple archers in one fight, guys with (apparently) auto-criting/very highly accurate bombs that deal immense damage, and pretty much always being forced to assail the enemy's position meant bad things.

The inventory system / lack of complete tooltips also drove me completely mad, but that's another topic all together.

And here's a totally different opinion of a person who actually likes challenging games:

Znalazłem w końcu chwilę na przebicie się przez ostatnie kilka walk i ukończenie Dungeon Rats. Będę potrzebował jakiegoś Monkey Island żeby przywrócić się do równowagi psychicznej, bo gra jest mroczna, brutalna, z melancholijną, klimatyczną muzyką, przyprawiającą o depresję fabułą i sadystycznym poziomem trudności. Jako że jestem niedzielnym klikaczem, byłem pewien, że jej nie ukończę, mimo poluzowania sobie poziomu trudności. Zajęło mi to łącznie koło 27 godzin.

Jestem, prawdę mówiąc, zaskoczony, z jakim zapałem powtarzałem walki - ta gra w cudowny sposób nagradza sensowną taktykę i myślenie. Dawno nie spotkałem się z czymś takim. Zwykle śrubowanie poziomu trudności wywołuje u mnie frustrację. Tu jest tak, że wkraczasz do pomieszczenia i wraz z drużyną zostajesz rozsmarowany po ścianach. Ale już wiesz, czego się spodziewać, więc przed kolejnym wkroczeniem przeglądasz ekwipunek, wymieniasz rzeczy trzymane w kieszeniach, przeładowujesz kusze innymi bełtami, ustawiasz inny szyk i przyjmujesz inną strategię walki. I nagle się okazuje, że walka pozornie nie-do-wygrania daje się spokojnie przejść. Ta zabawa dawała frajdę od początku do końca a twórcy z prostych elementów poskładali ciąg naprawdę ciekawych, różniących się od siebie i wymagających indywidualnego podejścia starć. Nie znam się na taktykach, ale ta gra wygląda mi na bardzo satysfakcjonującą zabawkę. Szczególnie, jak ktoś wymiata w gatunku - tu może znaleźć godne siebie wyzwanie.

This Pole basically says that it's difficult and you can be easily smeared on the walls by your opponents but the same fight can be won if you prepare for it and learn from your mistakes and use different arrows/formation/strategy. He also says that usuallly such difficult games are frustrating but this one was different because your decisions actually mattered and it's not difficult for coolness effect only but actually treats the player with respect.

His first post about DR is here: https://www.wykop.pl/wpis/23178863/dungeon-rats-ta-gra-to-straszny-brzydal-szczegolni/

 

[Fenix]

It's simple - first one is a homosexual one, but not just homosexual - the passive one.
Or he was educated in liberal education system, that's the same.

 

[Black Angel]

One of the newest Steam reviews: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198000938806/recommended/531930/

Cult following (including devs) is ridiculously toxic.

'Toxic'? What the fuck? Who is he, a fucking game journalist?

 

[Old One]

The first guy expects to cruise through the game winning every fight on the first try, or maybe on rare occasions the second try.

 

[Castozor]

I know I'm rather late to the party but I just picked up the game a few days ago, right before the discount too .

Spoiler

Not that I regret forking over the cash

And so far I like it a lot going with Spear/dodge 6 CHA. But I have a question about CS, is it worth to invest in for my main char if I take alchemy/crafting on my other 2 dudes or not?

 

[Fenix]

Critical Strike is about "all or nothing".
Basically, if you want viable crits in late-game, you need 10 Perception which gives critical chance, or it won't work in final battle.

 

[Morality Games]

Iron Tower developers are some of the mildest personalities I've ever seen in indie development.

 

[Anomander Rake]

Yeah, they are the sort of people you don't regret giving money to.

 

[ShadowSpectre]

AoD was a pleasant surprise and I loved it. Picked up Dungeon Rats today. Is there any consensus to what is a good build on the latest patch for DR? I was thinking Sword/Dodge/Alchemy with party members, but I am curious to see opinions on this.

 

[Goral]

Almost any build is viable if you're not going Ironman. Sword/Dodge/Alchemy is good, you can definitely go with it. If you're afraid you can always play on a lower difficulty setting for the first time.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

AoD was a pleasant surprise and I loved it. Picked up Dungeon Rats today. Is there any consensus to what is a good build on the latest patch for DR? I was thinking Sword/Dodge/Alchemy with party members, but I am curious to see opinions on this.

I have an opinion.
There are not enough skill points to raise 3 things early enough (or at all) to sufficient levels. You'll never make a combat char as efficient as Roxana and still increase Alchemy. Best build is to go 9 or 10 CHA, 10 INT, rest in PER, go to Alchemy 3 then crafting 6 then alchemy 10 then crafting 10, then put points where you want (at char creation put the combat points into block) , and use Marcus as a tank (go to dodge 10 before you start putting points into hammers) and Ismail (ignore dodge) with crossbows until you get Roxana when you can drop Ismail. Get Roxanas THC as high as possible by putting points in xbow and throwing (good synergy) add some more critical strike and use xbows and throwing knifes, then add Yngvar to the party when you meet him. Strategy is to just use the heaviest armor and tower shield on your main, find a place where no one attacks you, let Marcus tank and wait until Roxana has mass raped all the enemies. Works very well. You will max Alchemy early so you have the stronkest poisons, neurostims , berserk potions etc. Roxana can rape the enforcer and all his men in like 2 combat rounds.

 

[Fenix]

2 man party gave me hardest fights. Mascus as tank, main without dodge with crossbow.

 

[ShadowSpectre]

Looks like Roxana and Marcus are pretty key. I will try out some of those recommendations and see how it goes.

 

[Saduj]

Finally beat the game on hard last weekend. Had to bite the bullet and play through on normal first. Definitely helps alot when you know what is coming so you don't end up wasting or over hoarding consumables.

Had a decent number of bombs/fire plus Guardian at full health for final fight. My plan was not to take the talk option and to replace Marcus with the Guardian to start the final fight. Then I would use the Guardian to tank until he dies, at which point Marcus would join the fight at full health. Marcus never made an appearance as the Guardian was a total badass. Roxanna helped and my main threw bombs and fire to start every fight. But the Guardian was so good that Yngvar didn't even bother attacking anyone until the end of the very last wave and my main never used his sword once.

High charisma definitely seems optimal. Having four characters in every fight is a huge bonus. Yngvar got screwed by RNG in most of my fights (missed alot and most of huge crits were on enemies with less than 5 HP) and was still an upgrade over Ismail. Even having Ardomir early on is a big bonus.

 

[Parabalus]

One of us! (Solo hard ironman still worth without achievement)

How did you guys do the metorite construct fight without reloading?

Even with 10 dodge/10 block a single construct can kill me in one round. Best I could do was kill two with wait and pray the 3d doesn't gib me, which took a few tries.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

How did you guys do the metorite construct fight without reloading?

Even with 10 dodge/10 block a single construct can kill me in one round. Best I could do was kill two with wait and pray the 3d doesn't gib me, which took a few tries.

everybody who finishes the game on murderous psychopath solo iron man is a cheater who backs up his saves

If it weren't so, there would be videos showing how to ironman it.

High charisma definitely seems optimal. Having four characters in every fight is a huge bonus. Yngvar got screwed by RNG in most of my fights (missed alot and most of huge crits were on enemies with less than 5 HP) and was still an upgrade over Ismail. Even having Ardomir early on is a big bonus.

When I said Ismail in my post above I actually meant Ardomir, the xbow guy you can enlist in the second fight.

 

[Parabalus]

How did you guys do the metorite construct fight without reloading?

Even with 10 dodge/10 block a single construct can kill me in one round. Best I could do was kill two with wait and pray the 3d doesn't gib me, which took a few tries.

everybody who finishes the game on murderous psychopath solo iron man is a cheater who backs up his saves

If it weren't so, there would be videos showing how to ironman it.

There are a few with old balance floating around, mostly prenerf spear/alch use. Didn't find a newer one.

Anyway you can apparently close the inner door after you kill the two melee ones, this still results in having to tank min 6 shots (or some from the melee) if you one round the ranged one, more if you don't. With 10 alch I think you could do it reliably.

 

[Emmanuel2]

One of us! (Solo hard ironman still worth without achievement)

How did you guys do the metorite construct fight without reloading?

Even with 10 dodge/10 block a single construct can kill me in one round. Best I could do was kill two with wait and pray the 3d doesn't gib me, which took a few tries.

There is no point in doing 10/10 in both defenses IIRC, since you either use a shield or you dont.

The Solo MP Ironman run I did was before any patches (or patch 1, I can't recall) which was basically much easier to ironman solo compared to now.

How I did that fight back then was Block 10, Daggers 10, and then use liquid fire for zoning one, lining them up so that the ranged user hits them instead of you via body blocking + the high damage bomb. IIRC you could lower the chances of getting attacked via cripple. I think you could find pictures of the strat in one of my previous posts in this thread. Every fight should boil down to finding a narrow corridor then letting the ranged users attack the melee ones, this fight doesnt have narrow corridors so you have to create one for yourself via liquid fire.

 

[Parabalus]

One of us! (Solo hard ironman still worth without achievement)

How did you guys do the metorite construct fight without reloading?

Even with 10 dodge/10 block a single construct can kill me in one round. Best I could do was kill two with wait and pray the 3d doesn't gib me, which took a few tries.

There is no point in doing 10/10 in both defenses IIRC, since you either use a shield or you dont.

The Solo MP Ironman run I did was before any patches (or patch 1, I can't recall) which was basically much easier to ironman solo compared to now.

How I did that fight back then was Block 10, Daggers 10, and then use liquid fire for zoning one, lining them up so that the ranged user hits them instead of you via body blocking + the high damage bomb. IIRC you could lower the chances of getting attacked via cripple. I think you could find pictures of the strat in one of my previous posts in this thread. Every fight should boil down to finding a narrow corridor then letting the ranged users attack the melee ones, this fight doesnt have narrow corridors so you have to create one for yourself via liquid fire.

Those were 2 different chars, dodge one on release and block one on last patch, not both defenses on same one.

I looked at your SS. I did something similar, I killed the 2 melee constructs with wait->3 bombs+-fast (they don't get to attack), then had to deal with ranged one who's in the middle of the room, like in your SS. The ranged one killed me immediately a few times with 10 block/50 HP, you have 18/60 HP which I'm guessing is all from the crossbow guy as well, seems RNGey to me.

If any melee survived first round they would kill me on their turn 100% so going for ranged doesn't work (did that with the dodge/spear char before).

What I didn't know is that you can close the door, which makes the ranged guy waste his round and come to one square distance. You still have to kill him in one round or risk getting killed by a crit shield bash .

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

You have to attack the ranged construct like this: have tower shield for more vs ranged. step into melee range, attack then step out of melee range and end round. Never stay on an adjacent square, that way it doesn't melee and it's easier to tank the shots with a tower shield than to tank its melee.

 

[boot]

This game is amazing. And AoD is amazing. I just played them both this past week. Going in I thought ITS was another indie trash dev studio making popamole products. They are not. AoD is right up there with Fallout and co., and Dungeon Rats far surpasses Fallout Tactics. You may have only hit 10% of the sales reached by Darkest Dungeon, but Darkest Dungeon is not even 10% of one of the games you guys have made. Not even close, I know. I was playing Darkest Dungeon before installing AoD, now I don't think I can go back, that shit is garbage when directly compared to what you men put out.



I was always skeptical of the praise this studio received but it is well deserved. If this little love letter seems excessive it's only because it has been years since I have played a good RPG.

I played AoD through to completion twice, but did all of Teron and parts of Madorran... more times than I would like to admit, and with many different characters. I'm going to post about my experience with AoD because I've seen others do it and... maybe it will help? I don't know.

1st playthrough

Jack, the mercenary. I learned the game with this character, restarted many, many times, but eventually made a Sword/Block build that was able to clear every fight in Teron, all the way up to the temple of the sleeping god. Jack had a heart of gold but everyone wanted to kill or take advantage of him, so he ended up with a 300 man body count. World is a dangerous place, indeed.

- Did not like being tasked to find the temple by Paullus. It did not make much sense. I know this game tries to stay consistent within the game world, but being tasked to find the temple was a bit too gamey and broke the illusion. Every character faction must direct PC to find the temple at the end, and I don't like it. Maybe it'd be better if you were given a small company and a few extra combat encounters fighting your way there (but then... I guess there is no one for the IG to fight at that point). Which leads into...

- Last few missions are too easy as an Imperial Guardsman. Way too easy. Fighting a guy in Bronze armor when I'm wearing Japanese Meteorite? 2 EZ. Way too easy. Can we fight the psychic guy, or at least attempt it? If I go through the tunnels, can I fight the psychic?

- Sleeping god was unkillable for my full combat build character. Makes sense as he's a god I guess, but it felt cheap, as the big problem was getting knocked down every single turn. Had max block and armor penalty of 20. There was probably something I could have done to win, but it was 2 emasculating to have to reload after decimating everything that crossed his path. Was wading through legionaries like a champ before that point.

Annoying to know that if my character had used Bolas he would have killed him in a few turns. I saw Eyestabber do that, should be changed IMO, if it hasn't been already. Bolas: the real god killer.

-Uhhhh.... Hmmmm..... I didn't know Combat could be initiated by pressing spacebar until I did it by accident. Probably would have come in handy. Maybe it was mentioned and I didn't notice.

-Faction reputation was bad. Charisma 4 character so I got a bad ending. P. insulting to read that my slayer character was "not a good fighter, promoted for political reasons not battlefield accomplishments" I guess this is how the PC is perceived by game world. It's annoying that Charisma 4 characters cannot get good endings, but this is fairly realistic (or maybe I missed a few Rep gains?).

I got the Berserk ending with this character, and liked it much more than the "real ending".

second playthrough

Fagillio, the Merchant



Was very fun. Interesting to see how these men with money set all the events into motion. The game gets weaker toward the end, and it's much more apparent here playing the Merchant questline. Same complaint about being tasked to find a temple. Not sure why I was asked. Should have some faction specific option to hire an expedition. Fagillio was forced to master Lore in order to find temple, which I thought was out of character.

I've read a lot of criticism of non-combat play already, so not much point giving mine, but it is definitely less satisfying.

I just want to post about the game bros, but the reason I logged on was to ask some Dungeon Rats questions, generate some discussion, not enough stuff to read about it on the internet. If anyone has an opinion on the following please respond, I'm playing on Ironman with AoD settings:

Playing with an 8Charisma PC, is it worth it to go 9 for Yngvar? Is Yngvar a BRO? Is his jail story interesting? No spoilers pls. Seems like a good back up in case Marcus gets killed.

I'm trying really hard to optimize SP gain. Can I drag Cyrus through the game and get his Alchemy up to 10 before meeting the Sword/Bow guy, or should I just let him kill the ants in the first area and then kick him out for the Barca fight and everything past that? I think he'll die if I continue into the Dredger's territory, and since it's Iron Man I'm leaning toward leaving him down at 4 Alchemy and never using him again.

Should I run with a party of sacrifices for the Dredger fights? I can't clear them without taking heavy damage and getting my men killed. But it seems like a waste, too. Not sure.

I'm thinking party composition should go PC/Marcus (all game or until death)/Ardomir----> Roxana (Ardomir is technically wasted SP, but he's too useful in those early fights to leave out)/ Crafting and Alchemy leveling slot (Charisma 9 can slot in Yngvar when you finish...?)

Supposedly there is a skymetal construct fight that kicks everyones ass, would the construct you get be helpful in that fight?

I think it is optimal to take down Barca at the first opportunity so we can access Hieron and better characters sooner, but when should I clear the Ant Queen section? Will holding off until I have my final party or Ismail leave me under powered for the coming fights? Thinking of doing the section with only 3 characters, PC/Marcus/Hieron. If we take along Cyrus we can get Alchemy 6, but with that much invested I'd feel obligated to get him all the way to 10.

Really not enough discussion on this game. Took me many searches to dig up a coherent answer to how this "healing machine" works. (You do not need all three canisters to operate the machine. Each canister may be used to gain one (1) stat point)

Farthest I've gotten is final Dredger fight. Not asking for tactics on it. Thinking of using Quintus to replace Marcus during those fights, as losing him won't hurt nearly as much, and he can make himself very useful before he dies with a decent shield. Just seems hard to keep men alive here.

I think I'm going to reroll now that I know how the healing machine works. Currently 6/8/7/6/5/8

going to try

6/8/6/6/5/9

or

6/8/6/5/7/8

(use some of the additional skill points to increase synergy weapon and even out the Perception penalty, should be a net gain)

or

6/8/6/5/6/9

(same idea but Charisma 9)

The game has 3 difficulty modes, but the real hard mode seems to be having less than 4 companions. Solo might be easier, though. I like how the game rewards you for flawless victories with the ration healing system. Always trying to not just win, but win better, use less resources, (though, sometimes that means using a consumable).

 

[Fenix]

Well, you should go 10 Charisma anyway, if you go 9 I think.

but when should I clear the Ant Queen section?

Right after that, with only PC, Marcus and Hieron. Before it gave him enought SP to get 8 Crafing, now probably less.
Also, when I did Barca fight, I tried that anyone except PC and Marcus died before end of the fight - gamey I know, but skill points are skill points.
I think I went in Barca fight with Marcus and 2 expendables from the bonfire.
Next fight was with the rest expendables, with only PC and Marcus who stayed alive.
Then you take Hieron, and go for ants.
Because with 10 Charisma your only weapon of chouce is a crossbow (or throwing), you should have no problem with Roxana fights, with Marcus who do all tanking.

My stats were 4/8/4(later +2)/8/4/10, also reccomend 8 Cha woth crossbow, and 10 Cha with throwing, since it's more powerful.
Or maybe not - maybe it was 4/6/6 with +2 to Dex later. Already completely forgot.

 

[Parabalus]

- Sleeping god was unkillable for my full combat build character. Makes sense as he's a god I guess, but it felt cheap, as the big problem was getting knocked down every single turn. Had max block and armor penalty of 20. There was probably something I could have done to win, but it was 2 emasculating to have to reload after decimating everything that crossed his path. Was wading through legionaries like a champ before that point.

Annoying to know that if my character had used Bolas he would have killed him in a few turns. I saw Eyestabber do that, should be changed IMO, if it hasn't been already. Bolas: the real god killer.

-Faction reputation was bad. Charisma 4 character so I got a bad ending. P. insulting to read that my slayer character was "not a good fighter, promoted for political reasons not battlefield accomplishments" I guess this is how the PC is perceived by game world. It's annoying that Charisma 4 characters cannot get good endings, but this is fairly realistic (or maybe I missed a few Rep gains?).

I got the Berserk ending with this character, and liked it much more than the "real ending".

I had no ideas bolas affected him and I killed him "legit" several times. Should be changed really, seems retarded.
From my experience he will kill you in 2 rounds no matter what, so you gotta kill him in one round, which kinda cucks defensive fighters.

IIRC you can get "good" guard ending with 4 CHA but you need to be guard all the way and hit every gain.

second playthrough

Fagillio, the Merchant



Was very fun. Interesting to see how these men with money set all the events into motion. The game gets weaker toward the end, and it's much more apparent here playing the Merchant questline. Same complaint about being tasked to find a temple. Not sure why I was asked. Should have some faction specific option to hire an expedition. Fagillio was forced to master Lore in order to find temple, which I thought was out of character.

I've read a lot of criticism of non-combat play already, so not much point giving mine, but it is definitely less satisfying.

Not sure why you'd HAVE to master lore, since you can go through Hellgate+Temple by talking. Lore kinda comes naturally tho since you have SP to spare.

I just want to post about the game bros, but the reason I logged on was to ask some Dungeon Rats questions, generate some discussion, not enough stuff to read about it on the internet. If anyone has an opinion on the following please respond, I'm playing on Ironman with AoD settings:

Playing with an 8Charisma PC, is it worth it to go 9 for Yngvar? Is Yngvar a BRO? Is his jail story interesting? No spoilers pls. Seems like a good back up in case Marcus gets killed.

I'm trying really hard to optimize SP gain. Can I drag Cyrus through the game and get his Alchemy up to 10 before meeting the Sword/Bow guy, or should I just let him kill the ants in the first area and then kick him out for the Barca fight and everything past that? I think he'll die if I continue into the Dredger's territory, and since it's Iron Man I'm leaning toward leaving him down at 4 Alchemy and never using him again.

Should I run with a party of sacrifices for the Dredger fights? I can't clear them without taking heavy damage and getting my men killed. But it seems like a waste, too. Not sure.

I'm thinking party composition should go PC/Marcus (all game or until death)/Ardomir----> Roxana (Ardomir is technically wasted SP, but he's too useful in those early fights to leave out)/ Crafting and Alchemy leveling slot (Charisma 9 can slot in Yngvar when you finish...?)

Supposedly there is a skymetal construct fight that kicks everyones ass, would the construct you get be helpful in that fight?

I think it is optimal to take down Barca at the first opportunity so we can access Hieron and better characters sooner, but when should I clear the Ant Queen section? Will holding off until I have my final party or Ismail leave me under powered for the coming fights? Thinking of doing the section with only 3 characters, PC/Marcus/Hieron. If we take along Cyrus we can get Alchemy 6, but with that much invested I'd feel obligated to get him all the way to 10.

Really not enough discussion on this game. Took me many searches to dig up a coherent answer to how this "healing machine" works. (You do not need all three canisters to operate the machine. Each canister may be used to gain one (1) stat point)

Farthest I've gotten is final Dredger fight. Not asking for tactics on it. Thinking of using Quintus to replace Marcus during those fights, as losing him won't hurt nearly as much, and he can make himself very useful before he dies with a decent shield. Just seems hard to keep men alive here.

I think I'm going to reroll now that I know how the healing machine works. Currently 6/8/7/6/5/8

going to try

6/8/6/6/5/9

or

6/8/6/5/7/8

(use some of the additional skill points to increase synergy weapon and even out the Perception penalty, should be a net gain)

or

6/8/6/5/6/9

(same idea but Charisma 9)

The game has 3 difficulty modes, but the real hard mode seems to be having less than 4 companions. Solo might be easier, though. I like how the game rewards you for flawless victories with the ration healing system. Always trying to not just win, but win better, use less resources, (though, sometimes that means using a consumable).

I killed Roxanna on my first run, didn't know she could even join, so I was with Marcus +Yngvar, with 3d wheel Hiernon/Ismail only to max Crafting and Alchemy to 10, using Silas as filler, until I got secret NPC.
Don't think 9 CHA is worth it for Yngvar, better go to 10 then. If you're going for high cha best to use xbow and drop str to 4 so you have more points to play with. I used 4 10 4 8 4 10 for first run, probably better 4 8(+2) 4 10 4 10 with knowledge of the healing machine.

Construct is a great as a meatshield for meteorite since he can't be healed.

Never liked doing Barca before ant queen, either solo or with a party, since you get bronze weapons and a bunch of SP from deep caverns. If you could take him down with 3 thrashes which you sacrifice so you get all the SP then take Hiernon to clear Deep Caves so he gets them to rush crafting it makes sense, but you are still blocked by forge quality so it's a minor gain.

I wouldn't advise Ironman with <4, or at all for first playthrough, there are a lot of "bullshit" mechanics which can ruin your run, like wrongly remembering which of the 6 enemies uses a a bomb or net, etc.