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Dungeon Rats - first impressions and general feedback

Saduj

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I dunno though, is 44 HP too much to lose here? Do you think I should reload and try again? What's the recommended HP loss for this fight, either before or after the Ant Queen?

Depends on what kind of supplies you have but if you're running out of supplies every time you play the game, I'd say save and try again to see if you can take less damage. I've never tried the fight without doing the ant tunnels because I consider the ant tunnels a net positive as far as rations go. Your team has better skills and gear if you do the ant tunnels first as well. After doing the ant tunnels, it is pretty easy to take very little damage against Barca unless the RNG fucks you. I use poison and a net. The next fight is much tougher, IMO, and I'd want the better gear from the tunnels for that.
 

Tigranes

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Looking at that screenshot, I would call that a tough, hard-earned victory incurring significant losses in my resources. Since that fight is a tough one that 'gates' you from a new area, one might decide to roll with it. I know I've made through that fight in worse shape in some of my playthroughs. But obviously, if these kinds of costs (in terms of consumables you had to use and all the health you had to lose in order to win) are being incurred every fight or every other fight, then I would think, hey, my guys are really struggling here, I need to change something - difficulty, strategy, build. I wouldn't really think, "Oh as long as I lose a crapload of health and use several of my consumables I'm doing fine."

Again, it's got nothing to do with whether the game is 'too easy' or 'too hard'. It's just really simple - I play this game an hour, and I quickly realise that this is not a game where you can rest and heal up and buy healing potions whenever I want, I realise that I can't grind against easy opponents for XP. So I realise that it's not enough to 'win' with 1hp left, I need to think about the maximal conservation of every resource. So I wouldn't think, "hey by using a lot of my limited resources, this was a cakewalk", I would think, "man, I had to use a fire pot to get through that, could I have done better?" or, "Well this particular fight I needed to use everything I had, but now I am thinking how to use my new skill points to make sure I'm not on the ropes like that next time."

There's really nothing super mysterious going on here I think, it's just your expectations are not in line with the reality that your guys face within the game. (I'm not saying that's 'your fault' or 'the game's fault'.) When I pick up healing pots in BG1 I quickly get a sense that they're not super rare or anything, but I can't really afford to pop 6 of them every single fight. Equally, nobody ever tells you that this scroll of disintegrate is really rare, but you have a general awareness of the game economy, so you know not to just use it for shits and giggles in the very next battle.

P.S. Part of this is because the entire game's premise is that you're stuck in the bottom of a fucking dungeon with jack shit for survival. You're not an adventurer, you're someone who's not supposed to have a shot at getting out. Your environment isn't a series of cool set pieces for swordfighting, it's a long and gruelling dungeon that you have to keep hoping will have enough stuff to last you long enough to escape. If you don't like the fact that you need to try and not lose HP and such, there's no shortage of RPGs that aren't designed this way. And no doubt even Colony Ship won't be quite so tight and sparse from an attrition point of view.
 
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agris

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Reading the butthurt over the difficulty ID is having reminded me of how much I love this game. It's one of the few games in the past decade I restarted immediately after beating, and completed with a novelty solo run.

Thanks for making it Vault Dweller
love.png
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Aaaaand game crashes in Ismail fight.

Yup, constant crashes. Mine don't repeat though.

Depends on what kind of supplies you have but if you're running out of supplies every time you play the game, I'd say save and try again to see if you can take less damage. I've never tried the fight without doing the ant tunnels because I consider the ant tunnels a net positive as far as rations go. Your team has better skills and gear if you do the ant tunnels first as well. After doing the ant tunnels, it is pretty easy to take very little damage against Barca unless the RNG fucks you. I use poison and a net. The next fight is much tougher, IMO, and I'd want the better gear from the tunnels for that.

I know the next fight is tougher, that's what I said to you a few posts ago. I didn't ask you that, I asked you what the correct HP loss was & the amount of HP you would lose in this fight, which you didn't answer. Also, you can still do some of the deep caves after this fight, you can clear your way to the Bronze Sledgehammer for Marcos without having to do the Queen or any other boss bug. Now you have Barca's armour you can probably have a shot at a zero health loss go at the injured Centipede as well. The armour you get as a reward for beating the Queen is strong, but has terrible Armour Penalty, so it's not that big a deal breaker.

Looking at that screenshot, I would call that a tough, hard-earned victory incurring significant losses in my resources. Since that fight is a tough one that 'gates' you from a new area, one might decide to roll with it. I know I've made through that fight in worse shape in some of my playthroughs. But obviously, if these kinds of costs (in terms of consumables you had to use and all the health you had to lose in order to win) are being incurred every fight or every other fight, then I would think, hey, my guys are really struggling here, I need to change something - difficulty, strategy, build. I wouldn't really think, "Oh as long as I lose a crapload of health and use several of my consumables I'm doing fine."

Again, it's got nothing to do with whether the game is 'too easy' or 'too hard'. It's just really simple - I play this game an hour, and I quickly realise that this is not a game where you can rest and heal up and buy healing potions whenever I want, I realise that I can't grind against easy opponents for XP. So I realise that it's not enough to 'win' with 1hp left, I need to think about the maximal conservation of every resource. So I wouldn't think, "hey by using a lot of my limited resources, this was a cakewalk", I would think, "man, I had to use a fire pot to get through that, could I have done better?" or, "Well this particular fight I needed to use everything I had, but now I am thinking how to use my new skill points to make sure I'm not on the ropes like that next time."

There's really nothing super mysterious going on here I think, it's just your expectations are not in line with the reality that your guys face within the game. (I'm not saying that's 'your fault' or 'the game's fault'.) When I pick up healing pots in BG1 I quickly get a sense that they're not super rare or anything, but I can't really afford to pop 6 of them every single fight. Equally, nobody ever tells you that this scroll of disintegrate is really rare, but you have a general awareness of the game economy, so you know not to just use it for shits and giggles in the very next battle.

P.S. Part of this is because the entire game's premise is that you're stuck in the bottom of a fucking dungeon with jack shit for survival. You're not an adventurer, you're someone who's not supposed to have a shot at getting out. Your environment isn't a series of cool set pieces for swordfighting, it's a long and gruelling dungeon that you have to keep hoping will have enough stuff to last you long enough to escape. If you don't like the fact that you need to try and not lose HP and such, there's no shortage of RPGs that aren't designed this way. And no doubt even Colony Ship won't be quite so tight and sparse from an attrition point of view.

All this waffle about stuff that's already been discussed & not one single word regarding answering the question posed by the screenshot. Is someone paying you to write this trolltastic drivel?

Reading the butthurt over the difficulty ID is having reminded me of how much I love this game. It's one of the few games in the past decade I restarted immediately after beating, and completed with a novelty solo run.

Thanks for making it Vault Dweller
love.png

Yeah, I bet when all those people were slagging off Dragon Age 2 you were sitting back & revelling in the 'Butthurt' that game generated, right? That's why you love Dragon Age 2, right?
 

Tigranes

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I don't know, kid, you keep asking us things that should be obvious from the game already, then we tell you, but you don't like the answer, what you want is some magic number. We aren't here to tell you what you want to hear and give you a cookie.

You keep running out of consumables then you get stuck. That's the game telling you to conserve more. It's like when you run into a metal pole and it really hurts, that's the universe's way of telling you to look where you're going. Is 44 HP too much? Well how many healing salves do you have? How often do you tend to pick them up? It's like when prehistoric humans go out hunting and gathering, you see? Nobody told them the magic number of fruits they should pick up. They figured it out, I'm sure you can too.

I get it though, kid. What you really want to do is complain. I don't mind - any excuse to talk Dungeon Rats is a good excuse!
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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I don't know, kid, you keep asking us things that should be obvious from the game already, then we tell you, but you don't like the answer, what you want is some magic number. We aren't here to tell you what you want to hear and give you a cookie.

You keep running out of consumables then you get stuck. That's the game telling you to conserve more. It's like when you run into a metal pole and it really hurts, that's the universe's way of telling you to look where you're going. Is 44 HP too much? Well how many healing salves do you have? How often do you tend to pick them up? It's like when prehistoric humans go out hunting and gathering, you see? Nobody told them the magic number of fruits they should pick up. They figured it out, I'm sure you can too.

I get it though, kid. What you really want to do is complain. I don't mind - any excuse to talk Dungeon Rats is a good excuse!

Trolltastic drivel, bro, gald I'm helping you feel big today.

Back to reality...

Oh look, a couple of reloads later, USING EXACTLY THE SAME TACTICS & SOLELY RELYING ON CHANGES IN RNG:

Xxpuo6S.png


I lose a grand total of 4 HP & the 'spare' guy takes the only real damage.

Is 4HP 'good enough', have I learnt how to 'get gud' now that I've used exactly the same tactics but got better RNG?

Yeah man, I'm the MASTER OF DICE! So hardcore is me...

So what's the average number of times you need to reload a fight to get the 'right' RNG for the battle? Maybe you'll answer that one without all the gibberish? No, wait, whom I tryin' to kid...
 

Black Angel

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In UR you can always approach the fight differently, get more levels, consumables, etc. Open world design means you have limitless resources.
While you can't "get more levels", in DR you can also approach fights differently and use consumables accordingly. I don't know what do you mean with UR's 'open world design' means you have 'limitless resources'. Care to elaborate? In context of UR, of course.

You could get the armor before the updates, there were 2 scorpion fights there, now it's just one.
In the deep caves there are 3 Scorpions defending the Oil deposit. Upon killing them you get 8.0lb of Scorpion Capace, the lightest of the two Scorpion armours costs 10.0lb to forge, so, no, you cannot have any Scorpion Armour before even Roxanna & by the time you can craft it you'll have rather a lot of other options available as even heavy scorpion armour is only 5 DR, which is quite low by mid-game standards & it doesn't offer any other particularly attractive counter-incentives, having weak CS & terrible penalties & not very good hardness.
Huh. Well, that sucks.

And here we go my lovelies:

40yCKrA.png

All Fire Ants defeated for zero health loss... oh, wait, uh-oh that one last regular Ant has manged to survive with just one HP left... oh well, it's ok, it's at -25 THC, what could possibly go wro… oh, it just critical striked Marcos for 8 damage..

Apparently I imagine all this shit, that happens so often you notice it in a short game with barely any fights, but fights where the amount of HP you lose IS the game :) ;) ;) ;)

So let's grin & bear it & do what the game wants and now we know from META knowledge that 8 HP loss here is unacceptable, let's … woo-hoo… reload for the third time, doing exactly the same thing! :

88yifV0.png

And finally. Oh look, I didn't even need to 'waste' an Antidote either ;) ;) ;)
:deathclaw:

Edit: looks to me that IncendiaryDevice is the new convert of the Church of Deterministic system > RNG
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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The next fight is much tougher, IMO, and I'd want the better gear from the tunnels for that.

Is it?

Before going into the Ant Cave, but after defeating the three on the road to it, doing the Forge fight, only consumables used are two poison flasks:

OI06EcL.png


Again, Marcos takes 30 damage & that's pretty much it. Is this 'tougher' than the Barca fight? You think I should reload this for less? I dunno, just 30 damage seems quite good for having 2 or 3 dudes attack you for 3 or 4 rounds... But maybe if I reload enough times I could find an RNG at 20? I dunno, perhaps you could state what HP you'd expect to lose here after doing the Ant Queen? That would help the convo move forward & be a productive RPG discussion...
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Edit: looks to me that IncendiaryDevice is the new convert of the Church of Deterministic system > RNG

Yes, of course, you didn't read my post in this very thread where I say how good RNG is about breadth and that simply having random by itself does not make something good RNG. Of course, you have to go full troll and try to make everyone think I'm a fan of determinism because there's another dude on the codex who you've been arguing with who like determinism, even though I do not agree with that. Well, that's good to know. Always good to establish the integrity of a poster before you get fully trolled by them...

I mean, we can derail the thread into a discussion about RNG if you like, I mean that does seem to be a big factor in the 'gitting gud' of this game, so, well, why not, eh?
 

Parabalus

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IncendiaryDevice

Use the 3 cripples as sacrificial lambs, let them die in a fight so you don't waste healing + get full SP.

On what are you using bombs and nets?

Kingmaker isn't patched yet so I started a new run, 41041048 xbow. Used 2 bombs on berzerker fight and 1 bomb on the fight before him. Sadly missed a neurostim on berzerker alchemist fight. Cleared DC afterwards and the rest will probably be much easier.

FYI I got up to Democritus without using anything but dropped healing, sitting on 20 casava roots. The tightest part is before the berzerker, I can see how you can run out if you have to heal a full party.

In UR you can always approach the fight differently, get more levels, consumables, etc. Open world design means you have limitless resources.
While you can't "get more levels", in DR you can also approach fights differently and use consumables accordingly. I don't know what do you mean with UR's 'open world design' means you have 'limitless resources'. Care to elaborate? In context of UR, of course.

In simple terms, outside of DC (and the prologue I guess) you can always leave and come back later, you can't run out of money or consumables.

What fight would you consider hard in UR?


We're talking about the shift from release to update#2, not beta.
They did, of course. The changes to difficulty and consumables were made while the game was still in beta, before it was released. We even added more testers in the final week to try that final version.

No, we've established that lots of changes happened after BETA.
Minor system changes that didn't affect the difficulty. No changes to consumables. Like I said, once we start testing, we make changes based on feedback, nothing else. Since nobody said the game was easy in Nov, we had no reason to make it harder in December.

If I understand you correctly, you're claiming Update#1 (came in Nov) made the game harder, but Update#2 was neutral?
 
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Parabalus

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If I understand you correctly, you're claiming Update#1 (came in Nov) made the game harder, but Update#2 was neutral?
I'm saying that we made the game harder while still in beta, i.e. before the updates 1 and 2.

That's clear.

But you don't think stuff like this:

- Lowered the amount of alchemy ingredients.
- Ants no longer drop stingers (except for queen).
- Reduced Roxana's skills a bit (Dagger, Xbow and CS), and less starting free SP (20).
- Reduced Hieron's free SP to 10, increased Hammer and CS skill by 1.
- Slightly lowered spear interruption chance.
- Spear interruption no longer crits.
Changed the berserk potion progression (Max is 40/10 from 50/5).
Scorpions can now stagger for -2 ap.
Nets work for 1 round (2 round if crit), target lose 6 ap.
Amount of bombs/alchemy for them is greatly reduced.
Amount of whetstones is greatly reduced.
Amount of food is greatly reduced (conserving cassava roots is key).
Also, if you think changes to CS was a buff to player, think again. Enemies like enforcer reliably even 150 CS defence. This means 4 con chars in light armor will be crit 100%.
Doors in first ant fight (and other ant fights nearbly) are closed now.

made the game harder?

Just surprised the updates were intended to be difficulty neutral, I always thought you made the game harder on purpose.

Guess it's just my subjective experience, since you said your testing didn't reveal any such effect.
 

Saduj

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I know the next fight is tougher, that's what I said to you a few posts ago. I didn't ask you that, I asked you what the correct HP loss was & the amount of HP you would lose in this fight, which you didn't answer. Also, you can still do some of the deep caves after this fight, you can clear your way to the Bronze Sledgehammer for Marcos without having to do the Queen or any other boss bug. Now you have Barca's armour you can probably have a shot at a zero health loss go at the injured Centipede as well. The armour you get as a reward for beating the Queen is strong, but has terrible Armour Penalty, so it's not that big a deal breaker.

I had already told you to do the queen first and you didn't want to listen. Instead you're doing the Barca fight with a stone hammer and almost no armor. I don't know what the result should be because I never gimped myself that way. You have hoard resources early on to win the game and you're skipping an area that is a net benefit in rations, gear and crafting materials. If you're having an easy time of it, that's fine. But that doesn't seem to be the case....
 

Fenix

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Yup, constant crashes.

No, I mean it's only in this particular place, because as I think, its when Ismail threw vial of napalm in scorps, and they tried to move out of it and didn't find a place for that or something.

The armour you get as a reward for beating the Queen is strong, but has terrible Armour Penalty, so it's not that big a deal breaker.

That's depends how to look at that. With this armor I lost like 7 or 3 HP in Barka fight. Same for next fight near the forge. Wait no, there was ~15 HP loss, crossbow hit me for ~7, and then spearman once.
Same for Claim Jumpers.
The only fight that was "give them hell" was Reinard. And I managed anyway to maneuver with 6 AP in a way alchemist trew only one bomb. Char had 1 HP left when only two of them left on feet - archer and basher.

I lose a grand total of 4 HP & the 'spare' guy takes the only real damage.

Dude you should let him die, that's why he is "spare guy". If you will throw around SP like that, it won't bring you victory.

I'll tell you that - for 4 man pary with 8 Cha use crossbow. For smae but with 10 Cha use throwing because it's more efficient and require less stat points.
That's how I did and I won without problems.


So what's the average number of times you need to reload a fight to get the 'right' RNG for the battle?

You only need to use RNG if you can;t reliably win the fight by yourself.
That's the thing you don't understand.
I lose a fight with wounded scolo because char was meak for that fight, thus RNG could and affected it.
 
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Saduj

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Well kindly make that the theme of your attitude then and stop spewing conjectural bullshit.

You've spent how many posts telling us that you're shit at this game and asking for advice, then you don't take the advice and skip content that makes the game easier. Calling you a fool wouldn't be conjecture.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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That's depends how to look at that. With this armor I lost like 7 or 3 HP in Barka fight. Same for next fight near the forge. Wait no, there was ~15 HP loss, crossbow hit me for ~7, and then spearman once. Same for Claim Jumpers. The only fight that was "give them hell" was Reinard. And I managed anyway to maneuver with 6 AP in a way alchemist trew only one bomb. Char had 1 HP left when only two of them left on feet - archer and basher.

Parabalus gave that advice after I'd gone through that stage, but don't worry, I let Ardoner die in the Reinhard fight. I only lost 16 HP in that, to the last shot of the last enemy archer, of course. Alchemist died first turn, no bombs thrown, but I did use one bomb on him. Used 2 nets as well. I'd say this fight was easier than the one across the river, HP loss-wise, as you don't need to worry about keeping everyone alive. Regards getting the amour though, how much HP did you lose to the Ants? oh, wait, you're talking about a solo run here?

So what's the average number of times you need to reload a fight to get the 'right' RNG for the battle?

You only need to use RNG if you can;t reliably win the fight by yourself. That's the thing you don't understand. I lose a fight with wounded scolo because char was meak for that fight, thus RNG could and affected it.

If you're still using the term "to win the fight", then I'm afraid it's you who refusing to understand my posts. I've repeated about 6 times now, I just want to know how much HP you're supposed to lose each fight for the healing mechanic to function... why is this such a hard concept to grasp for you?
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Well kindly make that the theme of your attitude then and stop spewing conjectural bullshit.

You've spent how many posts telling us that you're shit at this game and asking for advice, then you don't take the advice and skip content that makes the game easier. Calling you a fool wouldn't be conjecture.

I have taken advice, from the posters who have actually played it since release. Those who haven't are just posturing like a peacock giving outdated horseshit 'advice' from a time when the game was completely different. Understand yet?

Much as it might surprise you, you're not "everyone".
 

Parabalus

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That's depends how to look at that. With this armor I lost like 7 or 3 HP in Barka fight. Same for next fight near the forge. Wait no, there was ~15 HP loss, crossbow hit me for ~7, and then spearman once. Same for Claim Jumpers. The only fight that was "give them hell" was Reinard. And I managed anyway to maneuver with 6 AP in a way alchemist trew only one bomb. Char had 1 HP left when only two of them left on feet - archer and basher.

Parabalus gave that advice after I'd gone through that stage, but don't worry, I let Ardoner die in the Reinhard fight. I only lost 16 HP in that, to the last shot of the last enemy archer, of course. Alchemist died first turn, no bombs thrown, but I did use one bomb on him. Used 2 nets as well. I'd say this fight was easier than the one across the river, HP loss-wise, as you don't need to worry about keeping everyone alive. Regards getting the amour though, how much HP did you lose to the Ants? oh, wait, you're talking about a solo run here?

So what's the average number of times you need to reload a fight to get the 'right' RNG for the battle?

You only need to use RNG if you can;t reliably win the fight by yourself. That's the thing you don't understand. I lose a fight with wounded scolo because char was meak for that fight, thus RNG could and affected it.

If you're still using the term "to win the fight", then I'm afraid it's you who refusing to understand my posts. I've repeated about 6 times now, I just want to know how much HP you're supposed to lose each fight for the healing mechanic to function... why is this such a hard concept to grasp for you?

For the Reinerd fight, if you position a fighter on the square closest to the alchemist's buddy, and your other PCs next to Reinerd (to gib him), the alchemist won't throw a bomb in first round if your guy gets an AoO -> easy way to loot both alchemist and reinerd consumables.

For your HP loss, after you kill Reinhard you won't run out of HP anymore, going into DC refills your rations for free, and you have high Alchemy. The part before him should have been retouched, likely scares off new players.
I know the next fight is tougher, that's what I said to you a few posts ago. I didn't ask you that, I asked you what the correct HP loss was & the amount of HP you would lose in this fight, which you didn't answer. Also, you can still do some of the deep caves after this fight, you can clear your way to the Bronze Sledgehammer for Marcos without having to do the Queen or any other boss bug. Now you have Barca's armour you can probably have a shot at a zero health loss go at the injured Centipede as well. The armour you get as a reward for beating the Queen is strong, but has terrible Armour Penalty, so it's not that big a deal breaker.

I had already told you to do the queen first and you didn't want to listen. Instead you're doing the Barca fight with a stone hammer and almost no armor. I don't know what the result should be because I never gimped myself that way. You have hoard resources early on to win the game and you're skipping an area that is a net benefit in rations, gear and crafting materials. If you're having an easy time of it, that's fine. But that doesn't seem to be the case....

This is horrible advice, the fights drain more resources than they give + they let you level up Hiernon to Crafting 8 as soon as you gib Reinhard, or to rank 10 before Democritus.
 

Fenix

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Regards getting the amour though, how much HP did you lose to the Ants? oh, wait, you're talking about a solo run here?

Solo blocker with 10 Int yeah.
The most dangerous fight with ants was 3 warriors after scolopendra.
After queen I got 20 HP left, I didn't spent any bomb there (two saved bombs went to Roxane for her delicious 9 SP).
Early ants are bugged because they have stronger poinson than normal, or queen's ants bugged and her ants have weaker poison than supposed, because I was losing 1 HP from poison from ants in the beginning with 10 Con, and ants in diferent zone did 0 poison damage.

I've repeated about 6 times now, I just want to know how much HP you're supposed to lose each fight for the healing mechanic to function... why is this such a hard concept to grasp for you?

Because I already told you - as little as possible. You don;t like that answer it seems.

reinerd consumables

Yeah, in order to get his stuff you need to use clean weapon without poison - it's not effective anyway with his 40 points antidote.

Also, I only lost so much because I made mistake - there is bottleneck if you run back, and I stepped back too far to lure guy with trident, so basher and guy with trident could attacled simultaneously.
 

Parabalus

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reinerd consumables

Yeah, in order to get his stuff you need to use clean weapon without poison - it's not effective anyway with his 40 points antidote.

Also, I only lost so much because I made mistake - there is bottleneck if you run back, and I stepped back too far to lure guy with trident, so basher and guy with trident could attacled simultaneously.

Just kill him before he acts? Throw a bomb to hit him and his 2 bodyguards, than kill him.

You get zerker pot + neurostim + antidote, worth it.
 

Fenix

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Just kill him before he acts? Throw a bomb to hit him and his 2 bodyguards, than kill him.

You get zerker pot + neurostim + antidote, worth it.

What? One bomb can kill Reinard and his guys? And Alchemist too?
What?
 

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