Elite: Dangerous

[J_C]

Nobody used ad hominem, just sayin. Do you even know what it means?

Can you read? Or you just read what do you agree with?
I was called a retard for giving some valid reasons for my frustation with this offline news, while that same person is being spreading lies, which was already called for.

Because the ad hominem post didn't have a quote, I just assumed it was aimed at the last few posts, which weren't using ad hominem. I don't care if you were called a retard a page ago. You are a retard who whines too much by the way.

But I really shouldn't have to give reasons. I backed the game on the promise of offline single-player, which will not be fullfiled. I won't have what I backed for.

Then, as I said, you deserve a fucking refund, I never doubted that. If you ONLY BACKED it, because you wanted offline, regardless of its quality, ask for a refund. But if someone happily played the beta and had no problem with being always online, then fuck yourself.

The reason is that if you played the beta, probably enjoyed it (otherwise you wouldn't have played it), you didn't care about being always online (otherwise you wouldn't have played it), then don't try to pull a 180 and want a refund. Oh, you liked playing online, didn't have any problem with it, but suddenly, after you put a 100 hour into our game, you want your money back? Then fuck you!

is that what frontier actually said, or is it you coming up with something incredibly ridiculous on your own?

They didn't say that but it seems logical.

For the kickstarter dudes, tough shit. Kickstarter's a donation; never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever use kickstarter.

Good luck enjoying your favourite Dragon Age series, and I bet you like CoD a lot. I instead play the great niche games which wouldn't have been created without Kickstarter.

Lastly, no, excluding offline isn't 'no big deal.' Enjoy pausing the game because you've gotten explosive diarrhea after chugging a 2L bottle of mountain dew with your dorito covered chode-fingers, oh wait you can't 'cause it's online only, asshole, I hope you didn't forget to put your extra absorbent adult diaper on.

IJesus fucking Christ, you are really grasping at straws here.

This is J "Double Fine Did Nothing Wrong" C you're talking to. Bastard still owes us an impartial review of Spacebase DF9.

Oh come on, you know you agree with me. Admit it. Spacebase review is coming by the way. It is only 10 lightyears away.

It's always a pleasure to laugh at idiots who spent money on kickstarter.

Yes very funny. I'm also laughing that you pay full price for these great games like Wasteland 2, Divinity, Elite, meanwhile we backers got them with a huge discount.

 

[SuicideBunny]

They didn't say that but it seems logical.

not in any generally agreed upon meaning of the word "logical", because:

But if someone happily played the beta and had no problem with being always online, then fuck yourself.

beta is beta. playing it for any amount of time does not in any way, shape, or form imply that you are fine with its current state and devs are justified in dropping promised features and denying you a refund, should those features really have been the deciding factor in your backing/purchase... besides, there are many other reasons to want offline mode than just shitty or no internet access, like wanting the ability to cheat so you can just frolic around the universe without having to worry about trade and other stuff, if you're a pure explorer who doesn't give a fuck about gameplay, or just wanting the assurance that no matter how it all turns out or if braben suddenly bites the dust, you'll still be able to pick the game up play it, even though at the cost of some functionality...
if you're an elite fan, you know that braben has been working very long on the ideas and concepts that went into this, including that bit of info he let slip back in 2006 about how the next elite would likely look like, meaning they probably invested quite heavily into the game already before the kickstarter, much like larian. i might be wrong, given i don't know braben personally, but it seems a fairly safe bet that the game is eating up loads of money, and that frontier might be betting its own future at least partially on the game's success, so all in all, people fearing that the servers might not stay up for long are justified, while telling them "you played beta, fuck you" for wanting refunds isn't.

 

[Ulminati]

 

[Morkar Left]

I don't think it's a good move wanting to prevent people who played the beta to get a refund. I don't even see the logical reason behind that.

The reason is that if you played the beta, probably enjoyed it (otherwise you wouldn't have played it), you didn't care about being always online (otherwise you wouldn't have played it), then don't try to pull a 180 and want a refund. Oh, you liked playing online, didn't have any problem with it, but suddenly, after you put a 100 hour into our game, you want your money back? Then fuck you!

It's like if you buy a product in a store and after you get home you realize that you didn't want it, you can get back into the store and get a refund. But good luck getting a refund after taking home the product, using it for 4 months, enjoying it, and then returning it to the shop.

No. Let me clarify with an example:
You buy a Porsche with a hifi system. It's a new car model and you are one of the few who paid extra to drive it as soon as possible. You even give them feedback to enhance the experience for further customers.
They deliver you the car without a hifi system and say: Don't worry, it's just not available at the moment but we will install it later. Enjoy your ride. Believing them you take the car, drive it and you have great fun with it. But after some time you still don't have your promised hi-fi system. Calling your dealer he says: I'm sorry, it turned out I can't afford to deliver you a hifi system. I'm sure you understand I can't take the car back because You already used it and I won't give you a discount for the missing radio either. Sorry. It wasn't really fitting into a Porsche either. It's much better just hear the roaring of the engine anyway.

Would you be fine with that? Because the comparison is really similar.

 

[Turisas]

The car analogy is flawed, since the game doesn't lose its value or wear down after it's been used. Plus, who really enjoys being an unpaid tester anyway.

Frontier are just dicks who prefer to keep the money they got already, beta access is just another excuse.

 

[Morkar Left]

The car analogy is flawed, since the game doesn't lose its value or wear down after it's been used.

No, it's not flawed. That's why the reason FD doesn't give a refund to beta testers but for others who bought the game doesn't make sense in the first place.

 

[Turisas]

Flawed in the sense that what they're doing makes even less sense than with your car analogy, even though even in that example a refund would be more than justified.

 

[Whiran]

Then, as I said, you deserve a fucking refund, I never doubted that. If you ONLY BACKED it, because you wanted offline, regardless of its quality, ask for a refund. But if someone happily played the beta and had no problem with being always online, then fuck yourself.

I've seen this sentiment a few times when reading the refund thread over at Frontier (I checked it out last night) and was wondering about it. Why do you not want fellow gamers to get a refund for something they aren't happy with especially when the developer is about to deliver a final product that is missing core features that they said were going to be there?

I can think of all kinds of reasons why someone would "play" the Beta of a game even if a feature is not yet available - all the while planning on using that feature when the game is released.

In fact, anyone who is dedicated to a project and joins a Beta is helping the project.

If I paid to beta test something I am assisting the company developing the game even if all I am doing is playing and pursuing my normal gaming behaviors - knowing how a player interacts with the systems is super important to delivering a polished product.

Regardless of the value brought to the developer I am wondering why you don't want someone to get a refund. Let's say someone bought into the project on the promise of offline mode. They are really excited about the project so they go out of their way to download the game, play the game with a bad connection, submit bug reports, all the while expecting the offline mode. The developer weeks before release cuts the offline mode now one of the primary reasons why that person bought into the game in the first place and supported the game with their own time is removed. That person shouldn't get a refund in your mind?

Have you ever played a game and discovered that it did not deliver on its marketing and sales claims? If so, wouldn't you like to have the option to get a refund for it? Note, I have never been upset enough with a game to want a refund for one but that does not mean I wouldn't like the option. I have backed games on kickstarter and will probably continue to back projects on kickstarter when I see ones that speak to me. However, if one of those projects were to drop a -major- feature that was a significant part of why I backed the project I would love to be able to get a refund for it. Especially if when asked about the feature over and over again during the development cycle the developer claimed that it was still happening.

What Frontier is doing is bad for customers. They are being incredibly anti-customer with their decision not to refund people who have any time in the game. They are claiming that if software is 'used' then it loses value and cannot be returned. That argument is a bad one in the first place and becomes worse when speaking of a beta test. At the end of the day Frontier is revealing itself to be a group of people more than happy to engage in shady and deceitful practice to fleece their customers for as much money as they can get. What does this suggest about the future of this game? What else will Frontier do down the road?

Given how they are treating this situation I would not be surprised if they pull the plug on Elite: Dangerous in a year or two.

 

[J_C]

Given how they are treating this situation I would not be surprised if they pull the plug on Elite: Dangerous in a year or two.

But why? They poured a lot of time and money into this project, it will probably get good reviews, I bet it will be successfull, I don't see it going defunct in a few years.

In true Codex fashion, everybody is jumping to the worst case scenario, that that servers will be taken down in 2 years. Meanwhile even the commercially failed MMOs are running for much much longer. And you know what, if they shut the game after 3 years, while I poured 1000 hours into it, I will be content. I got my money's worth and I'm not planning to play with one game forever. You know how many great old and new games do I have to play? My life won't be enough for it probably.

 

[Shadowfang]

But I really shouldn't have to give reasons. I backed the game on the promise of offline single-player, which will not be fullfiled. I won't have what I backed for.

Then, as I said, you deserve a fucking refund, I never doubted that. If you ONLY BACKED it, because you wanted offline, regardless of its quality, ask for a refund. But if someone happily played the beta and had no problem with being always online, then fuck yourself.

J_C that's a pretty retarded and flawed argument. FD is going to deliver a different product than the one they promised, a defective product in which a essential part to some of the backers is missing. Not this part was essential for them to donate, not essential for them to play and enjoy the game.
If they did test the beta and play it and enjoy it they still have the right to be mad. We are not talking about a fucking burguer here!
Unless this game is so shitty that you can get the whole enjoyment of it during the beta and never touch it again.

The refund is based on the fact that the game is going to have no singleplayer, unlike it was advertised. Anything else does not matter.
Since you are fond of car analogies i am going to attempt one aswell.

Your Porsche has been delivered from the factory and its time for you to pick it up.
You drive it home and after parking you notice that the ashtray is missing, the dashboard's leather is beige instead of the light orange your requested and the stiches are blue instead of black. You drive back and you start complaining to the manager that is not the car you ordered.
He politely asks you if you enjoyed driving your car. You say yes. He says: "Well then fuck yourself!"

The reason is that if you played the beta, probably enjoyed it (otherwise you wouldn't have played it), you didn't care about being always online (otherwise you wouldn't have played it), then don't try to pull a 180 and want a refund. Oh, you liked playing online, didn't have any problem with it, but suddenly, after you put a 100 hour into our game, you want your money back? Then fuck you!

is that what frontier actually said, or is it you coming up with something incredibly ridiculous on your own?

]They didn't say that but it seems logical.

It's logical only on your fanboy head. Really J_C stop being such a fanboy.

 

[J_C]

But I really shouldn't have to give reasons. I backed the game on the promise of offline single-player, which will not be fullfiled. I won't have what I backed for.

Then, as I said, you deserve a fucking refund, I never doubted that. If you ONLY BACKED it, because you wanted offline, regardless of its quality, ask for a refund. But if someone happily played the beta and had no problem with being always online, then fuck yourself.

J_C that's a pretty retarded and flawed argument. FD is going to deliver a different product than the one they promised, a defective product in which a essential part to some of the backers is missing. Not this part was essential for them to donate, not essential for them to play and enjoy the game.
If they did test the beta and play it and enjoy it they still have the right to be mad. We are not talking about a fucking burguer here!
Unless this game is so shitty that you can get the whole enjoyment of it during the beta and never touch it again.

The refund is based on the fact that the game is going to have no singleplayer, unlike it was advertised. Anything else does not matter.
Since you are found of car analogies i am going to attempt one aswell.

Your Porsche has been delivered from the factory and its time for you to pick it up.
You drive it home and after parking you notice that the ashtray is missing, the dashboard's leather is beige instead of the light orange your requested and the stiches are blue instead of black. You drive back and you start complaining to the manager that is not the car you ordered.
He politely asks you if you enjoyed driving your car. You say yes. He says: "Well then fuck yourself!"

The reason is that if you played the beta, probably enjoyed it (otherwise you wouldn't have played it), you didn't care about being always online (otherwise you wouldn't have played it), then don't try to pull a 180 and want a refund. Oh, you liked playing online, didn't have any problem with it, but suddenly, after you put a 100 hour into our game, you want your money back? Then fuck you!

is that what frontier actually said, or is it you coming up with something incredibly ridiculous on your own?

]They didn't say that but it seems logical.

It's logical only on your fanboy head. Really J_C stop being such a fanboy.

If you take home a Porsche which was not the one you ordered you are a fucking idiot. Now leave me alone with car analogies because a material good is not the same as immaterial goods. Can you ask for a refund in a cinema if the film was not like it was promised? No. Fuck off.

 

[Shadowfang]

Exactly material goods are not the same fucking thing that immaterial goods and still your LOGIC only applies to consumable material goods.
We are not talking about a fucking meal that someone ate completely and now is complaining.
It doesn't matter if they played the beta and enjoyed it or not. When they did so they were still expecting to have the offline portion of the game.
Have you considered that some people just wanted both?

About the Porsche, i thought it was implied that the factory did not fulfil his order correctly, wrhich gives him every right to complain.
Jesus fucking christ you couldn't even understand what the analogy was about and had to recur to yet another fallacious argument.

 

[Whiran]

But why? They poured a lot of time and money into this project, it will probably get good reviews, I bet it will be successfull, I don't see it going defunct in a few years.

I'll answer if you answer my question about refunds. I am interested to know your reasoning behind not wanting other people to get refunds from a company that says it will have a gameplay mode that is important enough to some people to buy the game for, maintains that they will have that gameplay mode all the way to weeks before release and then drops it.

In answer to your question: because they won't be getting any more revenue while having to pay to maintain the service. Maintaining a cloud-y application has plenty of overhead.

Most sales of a game are done within the first few months (sometimes the first week) and if people play the game heavily why would they keep the service running if they aren't generating enough revenue to cover the cost of the service?

I suppose they will have "micro" transactions in the game and they have the advertising but would it be enough to cover the cost of maintaining the service? Maybe there will be enough people who buy lots of "micro" transaction things after paying full price for the game that will keep it profitable to keep fleecing their customers.

The company has revealed that they don't care about their customers and just want the money so from a purely profit driven perspective sell the game, keep it around for a year, do a sale of the game, generate as many sales as they can and then drop the game like a stone - they made their money and can move on without the maintenance costs.

And, yep, that is worst case scenario and I only envision it based on how Frontier is dealing with the offline mode debacle.

 

[SuicideBunny]

But why? They poured a lot of time and money into this project, it will probably get good reviews, I bet it will be successfull, I don't see it going defunct in a few years.

psychonauts had lots of money poured into it and a fuckton of good reviews too (not only that, it was friggin excellent).

 

[J_C]

But why? They poured a lot of time and money into this project, it will probably get good reviews, I bet it will be successfull, I don't see it going defunct in a few years.

I'll answer if you answer my question about refunds. I am interested to know your reasoning behind not wanting other people to get refunds from a company that says it will have a gameplay mode that is important enough to some people to buy the game for, maintains that they will have that gameplay mode all the way to weeks before release and then drops it.

I say it for the nth time. This is not about me not wanting to others get a refund.

Let me break it down to you. I'm really wanting this Elite game, and they are saying that there will be an offline mode. Great, because I have a shitty connection, and I couldn't play it online. So I preorder it and wait for the final product. I'm not playing the beta, because again, I have a shitty internet and couldn't play it. Then they decide that offline is scraped. In this scenario, YOU ARE RIGHT IF YOU WANT A REFUND.

Case No.2: I'm really wanting this Elite game. I preorder it, I even bought the beta. I have a good internet connection, so I play the beta, I enjoy it. Then the devs announce that there will be no offline mode. Now, despite having a good internet connection, and having no problem playing online, suddenly I want a refund for whatever reason. Fuck you, you won't get a refund.

I understand that some might play the beta and still want to play offline after release. No offline might be disappointing for those people, but if you have no problem playing online from a technical standpoint, is this really that much of a problem? We are talking about a game which you really wanted and enjoy it, and you rather ask for a refund and not playing, instead of putting up with the online requirement? I mean, if Jesus would made the best RPG ever, which was 100x times better than any RPGs ever made, I would gladly play it with an online connection, if the other option is that I can't play it at all.

But why? They poured a lot of time and money into this project, it will probably get good reviews, I bet it will be successfull, I don't see it going defunct in a few years.

psychonauts had lots of money poured into it and a fuckton of good reviews too (not only that, it was friggin excellent).

Different story. Elite is already loved by the players, Psychonauts came out of the blue and people didn't know where to put it.

 

[SuicideBunny]

Since you are found of car analogies i am going to attempt one aswell.

your local car salesmen tries to sell you a roughly car-shaped lump wrapped in paper, promising that inside is the best car ever, but insisting on calling it a car-shaped lump, rather than a car on all legal documents. he tells you more about it and supposedly it is a car that networks with all the other models in your vicinity to collect some statistics, correct your driving so you don't break any laws and possibly provide you with insurance and other benefits. additionally the car comes with an all weather engine that can start even in the coldest of winter, but using the car in below zero temperatures results in the networking component to be dysfunctional, and thus your premium benefits not applying during that time, but the car also being fully manually steerable. he tells you that for a limited time you can not only preorder the car, but pay extra, which will allow you to drive the display model which is missing some final functionality until your real and much better car arrives, as well as get all the later available updates for free, like mobile wifi hotspot or surround system. you agree, and it turns out the lump really was a car. when you go to ask about the display model, you notice the shop changed somewhat, and there is now a shield saying all purchases are final and nonrefundable once you become notified that your display model is available. you shrug and go on. while driving the display model you notice that the all-weather engine doesn't, in fact, start at all below 0 temperatures. when you mention this to the salesman, your are told that they are still working on it.
the only downside is that driving the prototype will make the purchase final. time passes, your real model is set to arrive soon, the salesman tells you that they dropped the all-weather engine entirely, because driving without the network feature wasn't safe at all, and thus driving during winter is too unsafe for you to actually do it. since none of the extras work when the engine is off, during the infrequent and unpredictable periods of low temperatures, your car does, in fact, become a car-shaped lump.
meanwhile a competitor is making very similar cars that don't come with many bells and whistles, but have actual working all-weather engines that start better, and they are giving them out for free.

 

[Whiran]

I say it for the nth time. This is not about me not wanting to others get a refund.

Except, it is. Why does case 2 matter to you?

Case No.2: I'm really wanting this Elite game. I preorder it, I even bought the beta. I have a good internet connection, so I play the beta, I enjoy it. Then the devs announce that there will be no offline mode. Now, despite having a good internet connection, and having no problem playing online, suddenly I want a refund for whatever reason. Fuck you, you won't get a refund.

I understand that some might play the beta and still want to play offline after release. No offline might be disappointing for those people, but if you have no problem playing online from a technical standpoint, is this really that much of a problem? We are talking about a game which you really wanted and enjoy it, and you rather ask for a refund and not playing, instead of putting up with the online requirement? I mean, if Jesus would made the best RPG ever, which was 100x times better than any RPGs ever made, I would gladly play it with an online connection, if the other option is that I can't play it at all.

What if said RPG was promised for your PC and on a console They entered into testing on the console. So, you decided to pay extra and check it out on a console - maybe you use a friend's console if you don't have one. The game looks fine. You poke around, help a bit with the testing, submit a bug reports and put it down. In all, you wound up putting 25 hours into the beta test - much of it just idling because you didn't log out.

A few weeks before release the RPG cuts the PC option. After claiming all the way through development that the game would be available (for sure) on PC it no longer is going come out on PC. Ever.

In your view, would you be entitled to a refund? You bought into the game because you wanted to play it on your PC. You paid extra to beta test the game in another mode but, at the end of the day, you'd rather play it on the PC.

Setting that aside, the problem with your black and white view of the refund issue is that it isn't a black and white issue. There are all kinds of reasons why someone who bought into the game for the offline mode might have checked out the game during the beta test. Maybe they were curious as to how development was coming along so downloaded each update as it was released, logged in, poked around for a little while and logged out. Maybe they had plans to play the game while traveling so they were counting on the offline mode to be there for that. Maybe they just plain hate online only games for whatever reason but were still curious about the beta test.

Regardless of all of that, why do you not want those people who might not like the game to not get a refund for it? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to return a game (not this game but any game) after discovering that it wasn't what you were expecting based on what the company told you? Why do you want to encourage this kind of behaviour (to be deceitful and shady) in companies? You are actively going out of your way to argue that people should not get a refund.

Even if someone put 250 hours into the Beta shouldn't they be able to get a refund when a core feature - a major feature to them - that they were expecting in the final product based entirely upon statements by the company making the game is cut at the last moment just before release? Heck, in my world, the person who put 250 hours into a Beta would have been be paid for that service.

 

[Stelcio]

Let me break it down to you. I'm really wanting this Elite game, and they are saying that there will be an offline mode. Great, because I have a shitty connection, and I couldn't play it online. So I preorder it and wait for the final product. I'm not playing the beta, because again, I have a shitty internet and couldn't play it. Then they decide that offline is scraped. In this scenario, YOU ARE RIGHT IF YOU WANT A REFUND.

Case No.2: I'm really wanting this Elite game. I preorder it, I even bought the beta. I have a good internet connection, so I play the beta, I enjoy it. Then the devs announce that there will be no offline mode. Now, despite having a good internet connection, and having no problem playing online, suddenly I want a refund for whatever reason. Fuck you, you won't get a refund.

That's retarded. The player doesn't have to justify his desire to play the game offline to get a refund. If the devs advertised the game with offline mode and did it several times, the lack of this feature is a proper reason for refund, no matter what state-of-art connection the buyer has. That's irrelevant. Beta access - also irrelevant. Even enjoying the shit out of beta - still irrelevant. False advertisement = refund.

 

[J_C]

What if said RPG was promised for your PC and on a console They entered into testing on the console. So, you decided to pay extra and check it out on a console - maybe you use a friend's console if you don't have one. The game looks fine. You poke around, help a bit with the testing, submit a bug reports and put it down. In all, you wound up putting 25 hours into the beta test - much of it just idling because you didn't log out.

A few weeks before release the RPG cuts the PC option. After claiming all the way through development that the game would be available (for sure) on PC it no longer is going come out on PC. Ever.

Well now, I doubt the gutting of online mode is the same as changing platforms. But if you insist, changing platform in my dream RPG would warrant a refund. Good thing Elite didn't changed platform.

why do you not want those people who might not like the game to not get a refund for it?

Do you really think I care if they want/get a refund or not? They could hang themselves and I couldn't care less. I'm just saying my opinion about the matter. I think they are just whiny bitches. Case closed. I don't want to talk about it anymore, I have work to do.

 

[Bradylama]

People wanted an offline mode and now that they've taken it out they're entitled to a refund. What the fuck is wrong with you?

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Because it's hard to separate the people who have actual reasons for wanting a proper offline mode and those who want their money back because they burnt out on the game by playing the beta too damned much.

 

[J_C]

People wanted an offline mode and now that they've taken it out they're entitled to a refund. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Do we really start refunding every god damned game where one promised feature is taken out? Should I issue a refund for Obsidian for PoE not being more similar to the IE games combat wise? Oh, you must agree with the retards who want a refund for Torment 2, because it will use a turn based system.

 

[Turisas]

Do we really start refunding every god damned game where one promised feature is taken out?

If the omission of said feature makes it inconvenient or even impossible for some to play? Then yes.

 

[J_C]

Do we really start refunding every god damned game where one promised feature is taken out?

If the omission of said feature makes it inconvenient or even impossible for some to play? Then yes.

I say let's not stop here. Gamers should be eligible for a refund for every change which is not in line what the developers have ever said about the game. Don't like the graphical fidelity? Issue a refund? The game uses Unity but you hate Unity? Refund! Wait, the game doesn't have Newtonian physics! The devs should have given refunds months ago! And you do know that many people didn't like the orange colored UI, don't you? I hope they got their refund! And do you see that the ship modells are like bricks, not sleak beauties like in Star Citizen! Refund! And if we are at Star Citizen, I didn't give my money for Chris so he wastes it on an FPS mode, gimme back my money you fraud! And let's not forget Larian who didn't devliver day-night cycles and the Phantom Forest. To the gates man, we have some refunding to do!

 

[Turisas]

Yes, let's muddy the issue by spouting irrelevancies because we should defend game developers no matter what kind of bullshit they try to pull. Are you invested in FD or are you shilling just for the hell of it?