Engagement System Questions

[Athelas]

I'm using that mod now and it feels great.

I do suspect it cheeses the A.I. Even with engagement disabled, enemies swarm on to my tank and never let go, even when I move my mage right next to them. Some enemies like the ghosts however go straight for my characters that are low on health.

 

[tdphys]

This simplest fix to engagement without taking it out, might be just to nerf the damage to 0.3 and change the engagement cooldown to 1 second or something. Maybe modify the second timer by dex.

 

[Weirdstuffinspace]

It's back to drawing board is what it is.

 

[Spectacle]

I'm loving the engagement system so far! It seems to do exactly what it's designed for.

Without engagement then ranged squishies would be quite pointless to have unless you have a chokepoint you can physically block with meatshields.

 

[Nael]

Personally I would be fine with just a reduction in the accuracy of Disengagement attacks. The 100% guaranteed buttfuck (without requisite feats) is unnecessary for what I have gathered the whole system was designed for.

 

[Grunker]

Without engagement...

...or some other, better solution, like in other RT games

 

[Sensuki]

Without engagement then ranged squishies would be quite pointless to have unless you have a chokepoint you can physically block with meatshields.

No, because the AI isn't that fucking stupid.

The No Engagement mod actually keeps "Engagement" it just removes disengagement attacks.

 

[hiver]

And that achieves ... what?

There is a proper multi-positive solution to this and it is to balance engagement.
As i posted.

 

[Spectacle]

Without engagement then ranged squishies would be quite pointless to have unless you have a chokepoint you can physically block with meatshields.

No, because the AI isn't that fucking stupid.

The No Engagement mod actually keeps "Engagement" it just removes disengagement attacks.

So it basically fools the AI into thinking it's engaged, but leaves the player free to move at will? Sounds like a cheat mod.

 

[Roguey]

So it basically fools the AI into thinking it's engaged, but leaves the player free to move at will? Sounds like a cheat mod.

I might have misinterpreted, but Sensuki described it to me as removing the damage from disengagement attacks. Everyone still gets them.

 

[Sensuki]

So it basically fools the AI into thinking it's engaged, but leaves the player free to move at will? Sounds like a cheat mod.

You mean, it doesn't fuck with the AI? I don't understand some of you people. Do you know how AI targeting works? (You know what Engagement is right? - an AI targeting clause and a disengagement attack, that's it). The game is built around the fact that enemies will stop and attack their melee attacker, if you take that out then the AI becomes lot more retarded than it already is.

This is the best way to do it without re-writing the AI.

 

[Rake]

the fundamental design at display here makes most fights way more interesting than much of what goes on in the IE-games

More interesting than BG2 (the only RTwP game that i consider to have truly great combat)?
Because the truth is, despite my dislike for many of PoE design desisions, if the combat is at the level even of IWDs (which i consider mediocre), i will adore PoE (if the writing is up to my standards)
I'm easy to please as far as combat goes, and i know you liked IE combat. So if you truly believe PoE has combat at the same level, it would put most of my fears about the combat to rest.

 

[Bubbles]

So it basically fools the AI into thinking it's engaged, but leaves the player free to move at will? Sounds like a cheat mod.

It makes the game much, much easier, but some people prefer it that way (storyfags).

 

[Grunker]

the fundamental design at display here makes most fights way more interesting than much of what goes on in the IE-games

More interesting than BG2 (the only RTwP game that i consider to have truly great combat)?

Yes. Unlike BG2 there is space here for interesting decisions in most fights. However BG2's key fights are still way better than anything I've met in Pillars.

if the combat is at the level even of IWDs (which i consider mediocre), i will adore PoE (if the writing is up to my standards)

Overall, it's quite a bit better IMO.

So it basically fools the AI into thinking it's engaged, but leaves the player free to move at will? Sounds like a cheat mod.

It makes the game much, much easier, but some people prefer it that way (storyfags).

Who's people? Are anyone except Sensuki actually using the No Engagement rule? I don't, precisely because the game is not designed to handle it, so it just becomes easier.

 

[Sensuki]

So it basically fools the AI into thinking it's engaged, but leaves the player free to move at will? Sounds like a cheat mod.

It makes the game much, much easier, but some people prefer it that way (storyfags).

I'm not a storyfag, I enjoy difficulty. I don't enjoy mechanics made for people who can't control their frontline without help.

I won't deny that it does make the game easier though because the game has a lot of artificial difficulty due to the engagement mechanics. Might have to do some creature modding down the track or something to make up for it.

Are anyone except Sensuki actually using the No Engagement rule?

I'm not playing with the No Engagement mod at present, I'm playing the first playthrough vanilla.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I've watched a Shadow teleport over to Aloth, paused the game, ordered Aloth to retreat, and then more than half of Aloth's Endurance is gone, just like that. Huge, instant, free action, 100% accuracy damage. It's obnoxious.

I'm around 20 hours in and I have mixed feelings about the engagement system, but I think it's undeniable that the teleporting Shadows/Shades completely break it and make it very frustrating on higher difficulties (I'm playing on Hard) because no matter how well you plan for it - i.e. in the Temple early on, Aloth won't have Grimoire Slam yet; no disengagement potential on his own, so your best bet is to bunch up your beefcakes next to your casters for easier peel, but you're completely reliant on your knockdowns actually hitting so you can move Aloth around and reposition for spells, which isn't a given; if you get unlucky with a roll, it's a two-shot situation.

This sort of systems-breaking scenario, this early in the game isn't good. Later on, when you do have tools to deal with disengagement situations (Chanter song, cloak of disengagement, mirror image, grimoire slam) it's a good idea to introduce them into the mix to break things up a little, but being unable to deal with them because you simply don't have the means is frustrating and bad design.

Other than teleporting enemies, I like engagement well enough, even though I do agree with the fact that it makes for more static combat; I however am a static player by definition and never thought I was the cleverest kiter around back during the IE games era and purposely avoided cheesing, cloudkilling from fog, etc.

 

[mutonizer]

I'm a storyfag, a RP fag and I enjoy difficulty as well, would you figure that.

I don't enjoy mechanics made for people who can't control their frontline without help.

It's not really about not being able to control your own frontline, it's more about the enemies controlling/limiting your bum rush, to try, I think, to simulate that "battle line" thing for the AI, that was totally absent from IE games, and stabilizing the fights a bit. Sure you can still trick the AI and rush around to get the casters/archers/boss/whatnot, but engagement system makes it an actual difficult choice as it can be very risky if you try it unprepared. Sure you can cheese and whatnot, but who cares, cheese's gonna cheese anyway.
With or without engagement, I agree that the player could and would be able to control his own frontline, as it was possible in IE games. But here, unlike IE games, you sometimes NEED to clear all the damn frontliners in full plate of the AI before you can get to the grand prize. In IE games, you totally ignored everything, gibbed the boss/casters/whatnot cheesing through lines of fighters who couldn't do shit to stop you, then mop up. That made "tank" or any defender role COMPLETELY useless AI wise.

I won't deny that it does make the game easier though because the game has a lot of artificial difficulty due to the engagement mechanics. Might have to do some creature modding down the track or something to make up for it.

It's not really artificial though is it? Supply limit IS artificial, especially with unlimited stash (also completely artificial). But a system (with all it's flaws and whatnot) that tries to simulate this concept of it being hard to just run through everyone unhindered is actually, I think, not artificial at all. It's an abstraction in a sense, and might not be the best implemented system for it, but it does the job...well somewhat

Never tried without engagement system from the mod or whatever but I already know the effect because that's exactly what you do in your IWD videos and that was the problem for me with the IE games mechanics: complete cheesecake combats.

 

[Ellef]

People complaining that no engagement is easy mode cheesing, when the AI targeting stays the same . It makes all the enemies that ignore engagement more of an interesting challenge too, since you don't just rip them apart when they begin moving.

I played several hours with it on and with it off, it's not really that much easier with it off (it is a bit easier, but so is playing without someone punching you in the face every 5 minutes, doesn't make it a good feature). Sending off that 120 deflection tank on his own to round them up and nuke from afar is just as easy in either mode if you want to play that way.

The game just needs more mobs that break engagement for certain clauses, rather than forcing you to stay still to enjoy their bad targeting AI.

 

[mutonizer]

People complaining that no engagement is easy mode cheesing, when the AI targeting stays the same

No complain, just comment, because really, in a single player cRPG, who cares about how each one of us play the game.

Just that it's not about what it does for the AI per se, it's what it allows (as far as I understand the mod, haven't tried it) the player to do that makes it easy mode cheese in my opinion. With engagements, 2 or 3 heavy plate paladins with 2 handers blocking the way between you and the priest/archer/caster might make you think twice before sending your half naked barbarian through. Without engagements, well, I guess you can just ignore the paladins and wtfdestroy the casters/priest, like you would in IE games.

 

[Ellef]

I'm actually seeing wizards come to the front line anyway in this game, and I wouldn't have to chase them back there, because enemy wizards aren't to be feared like they are in IE games.

 

[mutonizer]

I'm actually seeing wizards come to the front line anyway in this game, and I wouldn't have to chase them back there, because enemy wizards aren't to be feared like they are in IE games.

That's true

 

[almondblight]

Is it opinion that Chess is provides more thoughtful mid-game decisions than Checkers?

Yes:

To calculate is not in itself to analyze. A chess player, for example, does one without effort of the other. I will therefore take occasion to assert that the higher powers of the reflective intellect are more decidedly and more usefully tasked by the unostentatious game of draughts than by all the elaborate frivolity of chess. In the latter, where the pieces have different and bizarre motions, with various and variable values, what is only complex is mistaken for what is profound. The attention is here called powerfully into play. If it flag for an instant, an oversight is committed resulting in injury or defeat. The possible moves being not only manifold but involve, the chances of such oversights are multiplied and in nine cases out of ten it is the more concentrative, rather than the more acute player who conquers. In draughts, on the contrary, where the moves are unique and have little variation, the probabilities of inadvertence are diminished and the mere attention being left comparatively, unemployed, what advantages are obtained by either party are obtained by superior acumen.

 

[Ellef]

Well I'm glad an unsourced bit of rubbish solved that issue.

 

[almondblight]

Yes. Clearly opinions need to be well sourced, or else they're invalid.

 

[Ellef]

Well when the opinion is not your own, and makes objective claims about analytical thought, it'd be nice to know where it comes from. Not all opinions are equally valid.