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almondblight

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In my opinion, the best example of how to run a high profile successful KS campaign is Planetary Annihilation. They clearly had everything prepared from the word go, they disclosed the stretch goals in a very intelligent manner and they released enough information for the donors to fully understand what they were funding.

I don't know about that, I feel like Planetary Annihilation relied much more on smoke and mirrors. I still have no idea how the game will play out, especially the galactic annihilation mode, which which I can't think of any way of being particularly interesting. I'm not sure if they know, either. I'm not saying they don't, but they're Kickstarter didn't give any indication they did, at least not more than Obsidian's until now. The last stretch goal being the hiring of a full Orchestra to do the music also seems to imply to me that they were running out of ideas as to how to actually spend the money.

Likewise, the Banner Saga video didn't give us a good idea of the game either. See the arguments on the Codex over whether this would be a good RPG or a Facebook-like casual game. I think we still don't know the answer to that.

Another thing - though these Kickstarters talked about how open they could be with the fans about the development, there's only been a trickle of information from most of them so far. It's only been a few months, but The Banner Saga is supposed to be released next month and Shadow Run Returns and Wasteland 2 are supposed to be released next year. I know some basics about both games, but I still have no idea about how either of those will actually play. Contrast this with the AoD development - frequently showing us how quests play out, telling us what they're working on each month, getting feedback and modifying it.

I don't particularly like the way this Kickstarter has played out, but I don't like the way most have in general - vague promises, stupid stretch goals, paying to put your name in the game. But it seems to make money, and some of what we know about the game seems pretty good - set during a fantasy age of exploration, an attempt to connect magic with science, experience gained from completing goals and not combat, separate pools for combat and non-combat experience. It seems like it will be a good game. I'm just sick of paying for games I won't see for another 1.5 years and don't know much about, and also thinking that my money is going to be much better spent supporting indies that actually have open development processes and are already making good games.
 

Semper

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MCA Project: Eternity
They don't have one. I can clearly see that from their stretch goals - they are not thought through - especially the initial ones. Integration of all those extras is going to be painful and long process. And unprecedented for the amount of money they are going for (even if they get 3 mlns).

you can clearly see this? like you clearly saw square enix as alpha protocol's publisher? like you clearly saw that sega didn't pay obsidian during the 8 month brake to polish it? like you clearly think that pitching to a publisher is the same as fascinating people at kickstarter? all i can see is that you're full of shit and know absolutely nothing about all this.
 

Mrowak

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Project: Eternity
They don't have one. I can clearly see that from their stretch goals - they are not thought through - especially the initial ones. Integration of all those extras is going to be painful and long process. And unprecedented for the amount of money they are going for (even if they get 3 mlns).

you can clearly see this? like you clearly saw square enix as alpha protocol's publisher? like you clearly saw that sega didn't pay obsidian during the 8 month brake to polish it? like you clearly think that pitching to a publisher is the same as fascinating people at kickstarter? all i can see is that you're full of shit and know absolutely nothing about all this.

I am not going to reply seriously to a strawman.
 

Mrowak

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Project: Eternity
set during a fantasy age of exploration

This is 100% fan conjecture. Nobody has said that PE is set during any sort of "age of exploration".

Actually it kinda was confirmed in one of the updates.

Where? All I've seen is a bunch of fans assuming that "guns + not steampunk = CONQUISTADORS!!!1"

I think it's update 5, when Sawyer talked about technology: "higher middle ages/ early cultural renaissance with technology creeping in" and "deep sea exploration going foiled by sea monsters and creatures that destroy whole fleets". Even if the game won't take place in the "New World" it's still going to technically take place in "the Age of Exploration".

And let's face it - "the New World" opens a variety of underexplored themes and has lots of potential. This would be just fun to play.
 

Semper

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MCA Project: Eternity
here's a serious one then: as you can clearly see that the integration of the initial stretch goals will be a painful and long process and that there's even a chance that a budget of 3mio won't be enough to accomplish this, could you please list all the crpgs and/or (total conversion) mods you made? i mean, obsidian developed 5 games and lots of expansions/dlc and they should know what they're doing, right?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think it's update 5, when Sawyer talked about technology: "higher middle ages/ early cultural renaissance with technology creeping in" and "deep sea exploration going foiled by sea monsters and creatures that destroy whole fleets". Even if the game won't take place in the "New World" it's still going to technically take place in "the Age of Exploration".

And let's face it - "the New World" opens a variety of underexplored themes and has lots of potential. This would be just fun to play.

Eh, sounds like exploration isn't actually working very well in this world. Point is, "Age of Exploration" isn't the game's theme, at all.
 

Mrowak

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Project: Eternity
I think it's update 5, when Sawyer talked about technology: "higher middle ages/ early cultural renaissance with technology creeping in" and "deep sea exploration going foiled by sea monsters and creatures that destroy whole fleets". Even if the game won't take place in the "New World" it's still going to technically take place in "the Age of Exploration".

And let's face it - "the New World" opens a variety of underexplored themes and has lots of potential. This would be just fun to play.

Eh, sounds like exploration isn't actually working very well in this world. Point is, "Age of Exploration" isn't the game's theme, at all.

We don't know that because someone has been stingy with the essential info. o_O Again, such basic information like fully realised background of the setting would be cool. But they simply don't have it ready yet.

All we know that maybe it is a theme - whether the main one or not, we will have to wait and see.
 

skuphundaku

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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2 My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
In my opinion, the best example of how to run a high profile successful KS campaign is Planetary Annihilation. They clearly had everything prepared from the word go, they disclosed the stretch goals in a very intelligent manner and they released enough information for the donors to fully understand what they were funding.

I don't know about that, I feel like Planetary Annihilation relied much more on smoke and mirrors. I still have no idea how the game will play out, especially the galactic annihilation mode, which which I can't think of any way of being particularly interesting. I'm not sure if they know, either. I'm not saying they don't, but they're Kickstarter didn't give any indication they did, at least not more than Obsidian's until now. The last stretch goal being the hiring of a full Orchestra to do the music also seems to imply to me that they were running out of ideas as to how to actually spend the money.
Have you played Total Annihilation and/or Supreme Commander? If you have, that's their starting point. If you haven't, then go play some because they're awesome. What PA adds to TA/SupCom is, first, the spherical planets (I won't go here into the details of rotational ellipsoids and geoids and just call them "spherical") which add a new element of strategy because of the fact that the enemy can come at you from all sides. An extra layer of strategy is added by orbital installations/weapons and by planetary bodies with natural satellites, which can be used for weapons deployment. I won't even go into how awesome is that they aim to allow you to crash asteroids into planets. This is the first RTS to do this using the in-game engine, not some shitty cutscene, for what I know. Basically, you move on from a roughly 2D map (we'll abstract away the multi-level maps used in the more recent RTSes) to a 3D map that represents a whole solar system governed by a realistic enough approximation of gravity (as shown in the KS video by launching rockets towards natural satellites from the surface of the planets or crashing asteroids into planets).

The Galactic Annihilation mode is just expanding all of this to a galactic scale. It won't be a 4X space strategy game. It will be closer to Sins of a Solar Empire, which is something of a cross between a 4X game and a RTS. What PA has over SoaSE is that SoaSE had just ships fighting in solar systems in a traditional RTS manner, with a layer of 4X planet economy management on top, while PA is focused on a more realistic approach by allowing seamless transitions and interactions between planets and space, all of it being based on all out warfare.

The stretch goals were very well though out because each of them ads a new level of intricacy of the gameplay:
1) naval units & water planets: the initial goal used no naval units, but if you are familiar with TA/SupCom, you'll know how much of a difference naval units make. Also, from the TA:Core Contingency add-on, the water planets make a comeback. These are planets with an exclusively liquid surface, which means that there is a need for units and buildings that could be built on/under water.
2) gas giants & orbital units: these make use of the new interplanetary travel/warfare mechanic much more than just sending your units up to the moon. Now you can have orbital bases and weapons systems. On top of that, you can use gas giants to harvest resources and, most likely, to use their gravity for interplanetary vehicle maneuvers.
3) metal & lava planets: the lava planets are pretty boring IMHO, I admit. They will be, most likely, useful for resource extraction, but I don't think they add much. The metal planets, which are supposed to be ancient Death Star-like installations, on the other hand, sound quite awesome. The idea is that you could either tear them down for a lot of resources or repair them and use them to blow shit up on a planetary level.
4) the galactic war, as I was saying before, add a nice layer of 4X
5) finally, the last stretch goal is irrelevant from the point of view of the gameplay, but both TA and SupCom had orchestral music and this was done in order to keep up with what is already a tradition for these games.

The existence and number of stretch goals was revealed since the the first stretch goal reveal. The nature of the stretch goals was kept secret and unveiled as the donations were coming in, in order to make people donate to see what's in store. It is highly unlikely that the stretch goals weren't already established since before the project was launched.

I can't say that there is anything about this project that doesn't sound good. Now, we'll have to see how the implementation comes along, but both TA and SupCom weren't known for bugginess, so I'm not too worried about that.

Another thing - though these Kickstarters talked about how open they could be with the fans about the development, there's only been a trickle of information from most of them so far. It's only been a few months, but The Banner Saga is supposed to be released next month and Shadow Run Returns and Wasteland 2 are supposed to be released next year. I know some basics about both games, but I still have no idea about how either of those will actually play. Contrast this with the AoD development - frequently showing us how quests play out, telling us what they're working on each month, getting feedback and modifying it.
Are you an active member of these games' communities? If you're not, how can you say how much they communicate with their communities? All of them have their own websites and forums and I doubt that these forums are inactive. I think you may have gotten used to the hype machines around mainstream AAA games and you're subconsciously expecting the same thing from what are, essentially, indie teams.

I'm just sick of paying for games I won't see for another 1.5 years and don't know much about, and also thinking that my money is going to be much better spent supporting indies that actually have open development processes and are already making good games.
Nobody is forcing you to donate to KS projects. Also, most KS projects are indie projects. You could say that it's hard to call DFA or PE indie because they're being developed by established studios, but even in these cases, the studios operate independently, without publisher interference, so they are indie (as in "independent") games. I assume you dislike waiting 1.5 years for the games... well, that's the price we all have to pay for the incline of the gaming industry. The alternative is EA, Activision, THQ, 2K Games, Ubisoft, Square Enix, Capcom, Namco Bandai, SEGA, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony... should I keep going?
 

J_C

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Except stretch goals aren't related to the business plan. They're basically a marketing tool.
Derp, what is the point of this thread? Mail Feargus and ask him if he has a business plan.
THAT! No way they are thinking that adding those goals takes X any X amount of money. The player house doesn't need 200k. Adding a new companion doesn't take 50k and so on. Those are just marketing tools. To show progress with the donations. To provide you a goal, you can try to achieve with your fellow kickstarters.

I think that from the very beginning of this project they planned a game which has everything you can see at the stretch goals. They just don't tell that upfront because if they do, they don't have any marketing hooks they can use for the next month. And while this might sound dishonest, most KS probably work this way. In fact, this is what makes this clever business.
 

Mrowak

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Project: Eternity
Except stretch goals aren't related to the business plan. They're basically a marketing tool.
Derp, what is the point of this thread? Mail Feargus and ask him if he has a business plan.
THAT! No way they are thinking that adding those goals takes X any X amount of money. The player house doesn't need 200k. Adding a new companion doesn't take 50k and so on. Those are just marketing tools. To show progress with the donations. To provide you a goal, you can try to achieve with your fellow kickstarters.

AND THEY ARE BLOODY WRONG IN DOING SO!! Because those things ARE going to affect crucial factors in their project - such as workload, milestones, deadlines and their spending.

I think that from the very beginning of this project they planned a game which has everything you can see at the stretch goals. They just don't tell that upfront because if they do, they don't have any marketing hooks they can use for the next month. And while this might sound dishonest, most KS probably work this way. In fact, this is what makes this clever business.

My impression is that they don't have fucking clue what they are getting themselves into.
 

Infinitron

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Mrowak You don't get it. They aren't coming up with the contents of these stretch goals on the fly. It's all planned from the beginning. The only question Obsidian has been asking themselves during the Kickstarter period is "Which part of my already planned game should I reveal as a stretch goal next?"

The stretch goals are a marketing tool. What the stretch goals, in their totality, describe was decided long ago.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I think that from the very beginning of this project they planned a game which has everything you can see at the stretch goals. They just don't tell that upfront because if they do, they don't have any marketing hooks they can use for the next month. And while this might sound dishonest, most KS probably work this way. In fact, this is what makes this clever business.

My impression is that they don't have fucking clue what they are getting themselves into.
Agreed, if they had planned these thing it wouldn't have read like Sawyer jotted them down on a bar napkin after drinking himself silly celebrating reaching the goal.
 

Mrowak

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Project: Eternity
Mrowak You don't get it. They aren't coming up with these stretch goals on the fly. It's all planned from the beginning. The only question Obsidian has been asking themselves during the Kickstarter period is "Which part of my already planned game should I reveal as a stretch goal next?"

Those stretch goals don't really give me that vibe (they are just too general and keyword focused). See what tuluse wrote.

The guess you are making is even less probable than "the Age of Exploration" thing - at least there are some grounds for the latter.

And even if it is somehow planned from the start with the job they are doing, they are not going to collect enough funds to secure their goals. If they had a plan - like you said - they could reveal more amount of detail at the beginning and progressively spice things up. How about that Novella? That would be a very strong opening of the campaign and something substantial. But I guess the world is not ready yet so there's nothing to write about... bugger.
 

Infinitron

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Those stretch goals don't really give me that vibe (they are just too general and keyword focused). See what tuluse wrote.

Yes, Sawyer's initial stretch goals were bad, but that was because he failed to give a good answer to the question - "Which part of my game should I reveal as a stretch goal next?" That doesn't mean there was no good answer to give (ie, because they hadn't planned out the game yet).

The guess you are making is even less probable than "the Age of Exploration" thing - at least there are some grounds for the latter.

Of course there are grounds. You really think a professional company like Obsidian is making this game up on the spot? They've had plenty of time. They've only been working on one other game. Roguey can back me up here.

And even if it is somehow planned from the start with the job they are doing, they are not going to collect enough funds to secure their goals.

That's your appraisal. It could be wrong. Besides, who says they have to secure all of their goals? We can be pretty sure that the game plan is flexible enough to account for that.

If they had a plan - like you said - they could reveal more amount of detail at the beginning and progressively spice things up. How about that Novella? That would be something substantial.

Again, they decided not to do that. Maybe that was a mistake. We'll see.
 

Jarpie

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Codex 2012 MCA
What the fuck idiots? Of course they won't reveal everything what they have planned or already have on paper about Project Eternity when they start Kickstarter campaign. They NEED to spread out the information for the whole month to keep up the interest and flow of the pledges, and they have fresh things to feed for the news-outlets.

Un-fucking-believable assmonkeys.
 

J_C

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As Infinitron has said, the only mistake they might have made is that they didn't reveale the right thing at the right time, especially at the start. I can give them a pass over that, if the whole premise is OK. And in my book, it is.
 

tuluse

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As Infinitron has said, the only mistake they might have made is that they didn't reveale the right thing at the right time, especially at the start. I can give them a pass over that, if the whole premise is OK. And in my book, it is.
Their presentation in general has been poor. I find it pretty bland and lacking in enthusiasm. Contrast this with Fargo or Schafer who came across like 8 year olds on Christmas.
 

J_C

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As Infinitron has said, the only mistake they might have made is that they didn't reveale the right thing at the right time, especially at the start. I can give them a pass over that, if the whole premise is OK. And in my book, it is.
Their presentation in general has been poor. I find it pretty bland and lacking in enthusiasm. Contrast this with Fargo or Schafer who came across like 8 year olds on Christmas.
Ok, that might be true. But this really depends on the people. On the other hand, Fargo's pitch with the retarded comedy with the publishers was ridiculous.
 

Derpy

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Their presentation in general has been poor. I find it pretty bland and lacking in enthusiasm. Contrast this with Fargo or Schafer who came across like 8 year olds on Christmas.

Indeed - a bit too enthusiastic and exaggerated, promising everything under the sun, choosing just the right words to appeal to the jaded old skool CRPG demographic. I got a distinctly used care salesman vibe from him and his spiel. Furthermore, in the 6 months since Fargo's Kickstarter campaign ended all we have had are superficial updates, a couple of poorly drawn artwork and an announcement regarding a Wasteland 2 clothing line which I find particularly distasteful for a myriad of reasons. Avellon, Sawyer and co on the other hand appear rather more professional and trustworthy due to the more even keel and calculated nature of their sell. I am almost certain that P:E will see the light of day before Wasteland 2 does. Furthermore, considering their stature in the RPG community and their own aspiration to top-tier developer status, Obsidian certainly have WAY more to lose than the obscure inXile -- they definitely cannot afford the disrepute a failed Kickstarter would bring them.
 

almondblight

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Eh, sounds like exploration isn't actually working very well in this world. Point is, "Age of Exploration" isn't the game's theme, at all.

In addition to what Mrowak said:


"Additionally, Project Eternity's world contains some isolated races and ethnicities, but transoceanic exploration and cultural cohabitation have heavily mixed many racial and ethnic groups over time. This mixing is not always... peaceful. At times it has degenerated into genocide and long-standing prejudices are ingrained in many cultures."
What more would you need before you consider the time period to be an Age of Exploration?
 

almondblight

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I won't even go into how awesome is that they aim to allow you to crash asteroids into planets. This is the first RTS to do this using the in-game engine, not some shitty cutscene, for what I know.

Yes, it will be "Awesome." But once the novelty of crashing asteroids into planets wears off, where does that leave us? Does an asteroid actually take out a players base? Or will it be like the Starcraft nuke - powerful, but not overwhelmingly so, with few people actually trying to pull it off in multiplayer. It sounds great in the abstract, but what's important in an RTS is how it plays.

The Galactic Annihilation mode is just expanding all of this to a galactic scale. It won't be a 4X space strategy game. It will be closer to Sins of a Solar Empire, which is something of a cross between a 4X game and a RTS. What PA has over SoaSE is that SoaSE had just ships fighting in solar systems in a traditional RTS manner, with a layer of 4X planet economy management on top, while PA is focused on a more realistic approach by allowing seamless transitions and interactions between planets and space, all of it being based on all out warfare.

Again, sounds great in the abstract, but how will it actually play? If there are enough planets to really give you a galactic feel, then it seems like either you'd be better off focusing on macro, since there could be 10 or 20 solar systems on the front line at any time, and the game becomes a very simple 4x with the ability to directly control one of the many battles. If it instead focuses on one solar system at a time, you just get a really, really drawn out game. Like the crashing of asteroids, it sounds "AWESOME!", but so did Spore. The question is how it's actually going to get implemented, which we don't know.


The existence and number of stretch goals was revealed since the the first stretch goal reveal. The nature of the stretch goals was kept secret and unveiled as the donations were coming in, in order to make people donate to see what's in store. It is highly unlikely that the stretch goals weren't already established since before the project was launched.

Based on what? That they listed three "secret stretch goals"? Yeah, no way they could have used that as filler to figure something out.

If you're not, how can you say how much they communicate with their communities?

Because I'm part of some myself, and for the others people on the Codex (and elsewhere) post updates? I know that the Wasteland 2 and Shadowrun Returns (which has actually been the best, I think, in terms of communicating with the community) updates I get aren't backer only. It's not like other games only posts updates for people that have pre-ordered - if that's a Kickstarter trend, it's definite decline.

All of them have their own websites and forums and I doubt that these forums are inactive. I think you may have gotten used to the hype machines around mainstream AAA games and you're subconsciously expecting the same thing from what are, essentially, indie teams.

Did you read what I posted? Contrast what they do to what's happening with AoD, what Styg did with Underrail, or what's happening with KoTC 2.

Nobody is forcing you to donate to KS projects. Also, most KS projects are indie projects. You could say that it's hard to call DFA or PE indie because they're being developed by established studios, but even in these cases, the studios operate independently, without publisher interference, so they are indie (as in "independent") games. I assume you dislike waiting 1.5 years for the games... well, that's the price we all have to pay for the incline of the gaming industry. The alternative is EA, Activision, THQ, 2K Games, Ubisoft, Square Enix, Capcom, Namco Bandai, SEGA, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony... should I keep going?

The alternative is KoTC 2, Underrail, Chaos Chronicles, Divinity: Original Sin, Age of Decadence, etc. Turn-based incline RPG's that didn't say they needed 100k or 1,000,000 to start. All of those have also been much more open than most Kickstarter "we're bringing development back to the people" games have been so far. I'm not sure about Original Sin, but for all the others the developers have either been on this board or their own answering questions directly, and most of those answers are pretty straightforward.

I'm not saying I dislike Kickstarter entirely. I think it was a good way for promising titles like Legend of Eisenwald and Conquistadores to raise some money, and I even think it was a decent way for games like Project Eternity, Wasteland 2, and Shadowrun Returns to get made. But I can't ignore the fact that people are willing to make good RPG's right now without needing us to funnel millions of dollars first, and I think they should be supported just as much as the people that will only do so if they get the money upfront.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Eh, sounds like exploration isn't actually working very well in this world. Point is, "Age of Exploration" isn't the game's theme, at all.

In addition to what Mrowak said:


"Additionally, Project Eternity's world contains some isolated races and ethnicities, but transoceanic exploration and cultural cohabitation have heavily mixed many racial and ethnic groups over time. This mixing is not always... peaceful. At times it has degenerated into genocide and long-standing prejudices are ingrained in many cultures."
What more would you need before you consider the time period to be an Age of Exploration?

Actually, at best, that description sounds more like "two hundred years after an Age of Exploration".

(At worst it's basically a description of every age ever)
 

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