Community Ensure the Warriors of Diversity will live on in Eternity

[Commander Xbox]

god you dweebs are just so nerdy it hurts

 

[RK47]

more drama please.

also DarkUnderlord



Keep up the good work.
It continues to baffles me how much butthurt you can inflict. They need to put that spell in the narration when they encounter your party.

"You feel a slight tingling sensation on your back, maybe lower..or lower still. It starts a mere pang, but escalates quickly into something you are unable to ignore. You feel butthurt."

 

[ghostdog]

Planescape Torment also had the Sword of Wh'ynn, which a character referred to as 'The cheater's blade' and says something like "merely holding it will win the game".

The 4th wall wasn't completely stable in Torment either and besides the codex can come up with a party that still fits in the setting of the game.

Nope. The sword of Wh'ynn was never in the original game, it can be only be added with the UB patch.

 

[kris]

What was the exact specific info Fargo mentioned in the WL2 KS that is missing from Obsidian's Project Eternity KS?

The actual name of the game.

Plus it was based on a pre-existing license so there are a whole range of assumptions that can be made about the game-mechanics, enemies, setting, specific details of player races, type of weapons you're likely to find in-game and so on.

EDIT: Think of it as the difference between Lamborghini announcing the "Countach II", a car based on and inspired by the original Countach versus Ford announcing "Project: Forever" - which is going to be a car, with wheels. And it has seating. Think about what type of car the "Countach II" will be versus the complete lack of any idea as to what "Project: Forever" is. Is it a 4WD? A truck? Ute? How many seats? Will it be a fast car designed for racing?

That said, a game with the number 2 after it way to many times had little to do with the one before it. I would say "inspired by IE" says more than "next syndicate game". The details is no longer in the name.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

That said, a game with the number 2 after it way to many times had little to do with the one before it. I would say "inspired by IE" says more than "next syndicate game". The details is no longer in the name.

So you mean the game's going to suck like Icewind Dale did then and be entirely combat focussed?

While you have a point, putting a 2 on the end tells you much, much more. "Fallout" was inspired by Wasteland and yet is a very different game. But then look at the difference between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3. Sure, different combat system and perspective - and on some level different games - but it has Super Mutants, Vaults, a post-apocalyptic theme, you know what races are available. Enemies like Deathclaws, mixed in with robots in a "War... War never changes" setting. You know the skills, SPECIAL, points on levelling up. There's a plethora of information that simple +1 number gives you about the setting, whether you're going to enjoy the setting and what sort of people you'll find there.

But for P:E. well so far we don't even know whether this game has Dragons or not. Are they a long-dead and ancient race - or are they popping up all over the country-side? Are you Dragon Bred, and do you get to shout at them? What sort of weapons will be in-game and will I have a good range to choose from - along with unique weapons like spears? BG II allowed you to reforge weapon fragments into powerful weapons, will that be making an appearance? More to the point, I suspect Obsidian don't actually know that either - because they're pretty much developing this as they go.

 

[Kane]

DARKUNDERLORD FUCK YEAH
COMING AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHERFUCKING DAY YEAH
DARKUNDERLORD FUCK YEAH
(FREEDOM IS THE ONLY WAY YEAH)
NEWFAGS YOUR GAME IS THROUGH
CAUSE NOW YOU HAVE TO ANSWER TO
DARKUNDERLORD
FUCK YEAH

 

[J_C]

That said, a game with the number 2 after it way to many times had little to do with the one before it. I would say "inspired by IE" says more than "next syndicate game". The details is no longer in the name.

So you mean the game's going to suck like Icewind Dale did then and be entirely combat focussed?

While you have a point, putting a 2 on the end tells you much, much more. "Fallout" was inspired by Wasteland and yet is a very different game. But then look at the difference between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3. Sure, different combat system and perspective - and on some level different games - but it has Super Mutants, Vaults, a post-apocalyptic theme, you know what races are available. Enemies like Deathclaws, mixed in with robots in a "War... War never changes" setting. You know the skills, SPECIAL, points on levelling up. There's a plethora of information that simple +1 number gives you about the setting, whether you're going to enjoy the setting and what sort of people you'll find there.

But for P:E. well so far we don't even know whether this game has Dragons or not. Are they a long-dead and ancient race - or are they popping up all over the country-side? Are you Dragon Bred, and do you get to shout at them? What sort of weapons will be in-game and will I have a good range to choose from - along with unique weapons like spears? BG II allowed you to reforge weapon fragments into powerful weapons, will that be making an appearance? More to the point, I suspect Obsidian don't actually know that either - because they're pretty much developing this as they go.

This is stupid. If PE had a final name, not just a project name, would that change anything? Fargo had it easy, he makes a sequel, so all he had to do is to put a 2 at the end. Obsidian makes a new IP, whatever they name the game, it won't say too much about it. Calling it for example Dorn's Legacy is just as good as Project Eternity.You can't blame Obsidian that the name of their game doesn't say too much about the gameplay. Let me repeat, it is a new IP, not a sequel.

So, the thing is that Fargo's KS doesn't mention more specific things about the game than Obsidians'.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Keep up the good work.
It continues to baffles me how much butthurt you can inflict. They need to put that spell in the narration when they encounter your party.

"You feel a slight tingling sensation on your back, maybe lower..or lower still. It starts a mere pang, but escalates quickly into something you are unable to ignore. You feel butthurt."

The leader points at your group.

"Get'em, boys! I want their heads on a spike. That'll teach them to mess with the Trollz! Make it tasteful...I mean, painful!"

 

[Mrowak]

That said, a game with the number 2 after it way to many times had little to do with the one before it. I would say "inspired by IE" says more than "next syndicate game". The details is no longer in the name.

So you mean the game's going to suck like Icewind Dale did then and be entirely combat focussed?

While you have a point, putting a 2 on the end tells you much, much more. "Fallout" was inspired by Wasteland and yet is a very different game. But then look at the difference between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3. Sure, different combat system and perspective - and on some level different games - but it has Super Mutants, Vaults, a post-apocalyptic theme, you know what races are available. Enemies like Deathclaws, mixed in with robots in a "War... War never changes" setting. You know the skills, SPECIAL, points on levelling up. There's a plethora of information that simple +1 number gives you about the setting, whether you're going to enjoy the setting and what sort of people you'll find there.

But for P:E. well so far we don't even know whether this game has Dragons or not. Are they a long-dead and ancient race - or are they popping up all over the country-side? Are you Dragon Bred, and do you get to shout at them? What sort of weapons will be in-game and will I have a good range to choose from - along with unique weapons like spears? BG II allowed you to reforge weapon fragments into powerful weapons, will that be making an appearance? More to the point, I suspect Obsidian don't actually know that either - because they're pretty much developing this as they go.

This is stupid. If PE had a final name, not just a project name, would that change anything? Fargo had it easy, he makes a sequel, so all he had to do is to put a 2 at the end. Obsidian makes a new IP, whatever they name the game, it won't say too much about it. Calling it for example Dorn's Legacy is just as good as Project Eternity.You can't blame Obsidian that the name of their game doesn't say too much about the gameplay. Let me repeat, it is a new IP, not a sequel.

So, the thing is that Fargo's KS doesn't mention more specific things about the game than Obsidians'.

It's not about blaming anyone or calling names. It's also not about being fair. It's just a matter of fact statement. Obsidian does offer less in their promises than Fargo, if only on account of the fact that Fargo offers a sequel. IMO, DU is right in claiming that if they wanted to start an original IP they should have brought more to the table than a handful of promises.

I am growing more concerned as to how they are going to fulfill all their promises without actually knowing how to do that - especially with a very tight budget they are going to work on. Saying things like "we just get more staff to meet the deadline" just doesn't convince me... and Obsidian does have history of failing to meet milestones (which also means wasting resources) and releasing crap.

 

[J_C]

without actually knowing how to do that -

I think they know how to do that. Their promises are not actually rocket science. As for deadlines, there are KS projects that have been delayed a bit, I think delaying PE a few weeks (1-2 months) wouldn't kill me if it delivers at the end.

Obsidian does have history of failing to meet milestones

Milestones made up by publishers, which don't factor in this time.

 

[Mrowak]

without actually knowing how to do that -

I think they know how to do that. Their promises are not actually rocket science.

They are for Obsidian. As a studio they haven't delivered anything like that yet - and certainly not for that kind of money.

As for deadlines, there are KS projects that have been delayed a bit, I think delaying PE a few weeks (1-2 months) wouldn't kill me if it delivers at the end.

If you honestly think that for the amount of content they promised 1-2 months would be enough (assuming they are not doing a hack job, but really building meaningful gameplay, mechanics and stories around them) then I fear you are very naive. 1-2 months may not be enough time for adequate playtesting of the game with all the extras they added.

Obsidian does have history of failing to meet milestones

Milestones made up by publishers, which don't factor in this time.

Milestones made up by themselves are far worse - especially in a crowdfunding project like this. 1-2 months may be ok. But what about 6 months? Bear in mind that this means they will need to have some resources to work with for these additional 6 months. Where to get them when the campaign is over and they had gone dry? Because - you know - every project has resources spread across time (indeed, time is also a resource). Failure to meet the deadline usually requires extra money to finance its further development. And in case of failure this time around there's no publisher to save their collective arse.

 

[DwarvenFood]

You see two trolls dragging a prisoner. The prisoner looks butthurt.

 

[J_C]

I also think that Obsidian will add a million or two (not more) from their own money to the project's fund if needed, to make an awesome game. Of course they won't make this public but nothing stops them if they have this much reserve at the company.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

If PE had a final name, not just a project name, would that change anything?

It'd mean they'd at least done some planning.

But if I say "I'm thinking of making Baldur's Gate 3, based on the same IE engine with RTwP combat", what do you think of? What are the Elves like? What rule-set is it likely to use? What sort of skills, spells and other options are there going to be? What kind of weapons or magic items are there likely to be? Will I be able to I craft things? You essentially know a whole lot of information - based on assumptions from the previous game.

Now on the other hand, if I say "I'm thinking of making Project: Forever, it's a game based on the IE engine with RTwP combat". What sort of ideas do you have? Is it like Arcanum, with a conflict between magic and technology? Is there technology in the game? Can I craft things? What sort of artistic style is the game going to have? Will it have Vampires, Dragons and sexual encounters that will allow me to collect cards for all the women I fuck in-game? IE: You basically know shit.

As Mrowak said, they really needed to bring a lot more information to the table. Concept art, name of the world, where the game takes place, actual details of how the magic system works and so on. Maybe even a game-play video.

Fargo had it easy, he makes a sequel, so all he had to do is to put a 2 at the end. Obsidian makes a new IP, whatever they name the game, it won't say too much about it. Calling it for example Dorn's Legacy is just as good as Project Eternity.You can't blame Obsidian that the name of their game doesn't say too much about the gameplay. Let me repeat, it is a new IP

So where's all the information about this new IP? The Banner Saga had loads more information by comparison. You learn about the setting, how combat looks and works, the artistic style, the theme, the setting and a load of other information. And all that shit is just in their KickStarter video alone. As a result, they raised 7x their target.

P:E's video basically says something about Gods and then starts name dropping. Feargus than appears and says the project has "Compelling storylines, deep companions, tons of exploration and fun tactical combat" - ok, so tell us about these compelling storylines. Sawyer than says that the appeal of the IE games is "the story, the setting"... All right, so where's the story, the setting? All we basically hear is that "Magic is about souls". The rest is about "exploring mature themes". It then ends with how KickStarter lets us "bring awesome ideas together" because "we have talented people" (Back to name dropping).

So, the thing is that Fargo's KS doesn't mention more specific things about the game than Obsidians'.

Again, Wasteland 2: Post-apocalyptic being set after a nuclear war, enemies such as "Gunman", "Chain bikers" and "Punkers". Per's walkthrough says "It's a strangely satisfying mixture of exploration, item hoarding, frantic combat, certified cyborgs and toaster repair." You even know the attributes that are going to be in the game and likely how the level up system will work. Skills like Brawling, Climbing and Swimming - and that the game will likely use a 4-character party. More importantly, I immediately know whether I like that shit or not - and can decide whether to fund it on the basis of the game they're creating. P:E on the other hand is "we have talented people, trust us".

 

[Mrowak]

I also think that Obsidian will add a million or two (not more) from their own money to the project's fund if needed, to make an awesome game. Of course they won't make this public but nothing stops them if they have this much reserve at the company.

You see - this is the problem. Too much guesswork. There's is no guarantee that what you *think* might be true actually is a fact.

If they had come to people with an actual business plan, project outline and some actual content (e.g. the fully realised, polished historical background of the setting, or tech-demo of unity engine and drafts of first interfaces) then the whole venture would gain much more credibility. As it is now, it all rides on wishful thinking and euphoria of their fanbase. FFS, even their stretch goals reveal lack of foresight - they are making this shit up as they go!

I wish them all the best, but the management of the campaign indicates that they may have trouble managing their resources.

 

[J_C]

I also think that Obsidian will add a million or two (not more) from their own money to the project's fund if needed, to make an awesome game. Of course they won't make this public but nothing stops them if they have this much reserve at the company.

You see - this is the problem. Too much guesswork. There's is no guarantee that what you *think* might be true actually is a fact.

If they had come to people with an actual business plan, project outline and some actual content (e.g. the fully realised, polished historical background of the setting, or tech-demo of unity engine and drafts of first interfaces) then the whole venture would gain much more credibility. As it is not, it all rides of wishful thinking and euphoria of their fanbase. FFS, even their stretch goals reveal lack of foresight - they are making this shit up as they go!

I wish them all the best, but the management of the campaign indicates that they may have trouble managing their resources.

But you are also just guessing. But while I look at the bright side, you think that everything will go wrong. Not talking about business plans doesn't mean that there are no business plans. Those plans are never public anyway. Of course they could fail. Just like any other Kickstarter.

Another topic.
I hear that a lot of people are pessimistic about the game, and blame Obsidian of not giving enough details about the game, opposite to Wasteland 2 and Double Fine Adventure. Now I took another look to these games, and I see that if we look at all the updates, PE gives more details about the world, the gameplay elements than the other 2. Granted these are just ideas yet, but Obsidian will likely work along these ideas.

 

[Mrowak]

But you are also just guessing. But while I look at the bright side, you think that everything will go wrong. Not talking about business plans doesn't mean that there are no business plans. Those plans are never public anyway. Of course they could fail. Just like any other Kickstarter.

And they should be in this case! Why? Because it is the public funding the entire damn thing! If there's no plan - however initial it is - all we have to work on are vague promises. And vague promises are even more difficult to account for, when the time comes to pay the bills.

 

[Volrath]

I'm not seeing this mismanagement of resources, some obtuse people on the codex keep saying it, but I'm still not seeing it.

 

[J_C]

But you are also just guessing. But while I look at the bright side, you think that everything will go wrong. Not talking about business plans doesn't mean that there are no business plans. Those plans are never public anyway. Of course they could fail. Just like any other Kickstarter.

And they should be in this case! Why? Because it is the public funding the entire damn thing! If there's no plan - however initial it is - all we have to work on are vague promises. And vague promises are even more difficult to account for, when the time comes to pay the bills.

Financial plans are never public at any company. Self funded or not.

Also, I took another look at Wasteland 2's vision document. Holy shit if it isn't ambitious. Funny to see that people are complaining about Obsidian overpromising with a tight budget, but giving Fargo a free pass when he promises more with the same budget with an inexperienced RPG maker team.

 

[J_C]

If PE had a final name, not just a project name, would that change anything?

It'd mean they'd at least done some planning.

But if I say "I'm thinking of making Baldur's Gate 3, based on the same IE engine with RTwP combat", what do you think of? What are the Elves like? What rule-set is it likely to use? What sort of skills, spells and other options are there going to be? What kind of weapons or magic items are there likely to be? Will I be able to I craft things? You essentially know a whole lot of information - based on assumptions from the previous game.

Now on the other hand, if I say "I'm thinking of making Project: Forever, it's a game based on the IE engine with RTwP combat". What sort of ideas do you have? Is it like Arcanum, with a conflict between magic and technology? Is there technology in the game? Can I craft things? What sort of artistic style is the game going to have? Will it have Vampires, Dragons and sexual encounters that will allow me to collect cards for all the women I fuck in-game? IE: You basically know shit.

As Mrowak said, they really needed to bring a lot more information to the table. Concept art, name of the world, where the game takes place, actual details of how the magic system works and so on. Maybe even a game-play video.

Fargo had it easy, he makes a sequel, so all he had to do is to put a 2 at the end. Obsidian makes a new IP, whatever they name the game, it won't say too much about it. Calling it for example Dorn's Legacy is just as good as Project Eternity.You can't blame Obsidian that the name of their game doesn't say too much about the gameplay. Let me repeat, it is a new IP

So where's all the information about this new IP? The Banner Saga had loads more information by comparison. You learn about the setting, how combat looks and works, the artistic style, the theme, the setting and a load of other information. And all that shit is just in their KickStarter video alone. As a result, they raised 7x their target.

P:E's video basically says something about Gods and then starts name dropping. Feargus than appears and says the project has "Compelling storylines, deep companions, tons of exploration and fun tactical combat" - ok, so tell us about these compelling storylines. Sawyer than says that the appeal of the IE games is "the story, the setting"... All right, so where's the story, the setting? All we basically hear is that "Magic is about souls". The rest is about "exploring mature themes". It then ends with how KickStarter lets us "bring awesome ideas together" because "we have talented people" (Back to name dropping).

So, the thing is that Fargo's KS doesn't mention more specific things about the game than Obsidians'.

Again, Wasteland 2: Post-apocalyptic being set after a nuclear war, enemies such as "Gunman", "Chain bikers" and "Punkers". Per's walkthrough says "It's a strangely satisfying mixture of exploration, item hoarding, frantic combat, certified cyborgs and toaster repair." You even know the attributes that are going to be in the game and likely how the level up system will work. Skills like Brawling, Climbing and Swimming - and that the game will likely use a 4-character party. More importantly, I immediately know whether I like that shit or not - and can decide whether to fund it on the basis of the game they're creating. P:E on the other hand is "we have talented people, trust us".

Why should they have everything planned from the beginning? I don't know if you have watched Double Fine's documentaries, but you could clearly see that they for example had NOTHING planned. Tim had some vague ideas about the story being about a boy and a girl, but that's it. They started brainstorming after finishing the KS project.

I didn't expect Obsidian to have everything worked out.

As for this part:

Wasteland 2: Post-apocalyptic being set after a nuclear war, enemies such as "Gunman", "Chain bikers" and "Punkers". Per's walkthrough says "It's a strangely satisfying mixture of exploration, item hoarding, frantic combat, certified cyborgs and toaster repair." You even know the attributes that are going to be in the game and likely how the level up system will work. Skills like Brawling, Climbing and Swimming - and that the game will likely use a 4-character party.

Again, you assume that this will be in the game because you played Wasteland 1 and W2 is a sequel. It is easy to say that Fargo did great because he gave us a lot of info about W2. No, he didn't give us jackshit about W2 (at least not more than Obsidian). We know what kind of W1 was, and we ASSUME that the sequel will be similar.

 

[Mrowak]

I'm not seeing this mismanagement of resources, some obtuse people on the codex keep saying it, but I'm still not seeing it.

Because they don't have them yet? The campaign isn't over. Now if you look at their past titles, I say there's some cause for concern.

But you are also just guessing. But while I look at the bright side, you think that everything will go wrong. Not talking about business plans doesn't mean that there are no business plans. Those plans are never public anyway. Of course they could fail. Just like any other Kickstarter.

And they should be in this case! Why? Because it is the public funding the entire damn thing! If there's no plan - however initial it is - all we have to work on are vague promises. And vague promises are even more difficult to account for, when the time comes to pay the bills.

Financial plans are never public at any company. Self funded or not.

Who says anything about detailed financial plans? Just give us outline of what you are going to include and stage by stage process when features are going to be ready. Then show us how the extras from consecutive stretch goals affect the plan, and its time-frame. This at the very least shows forward-planning and down-to-earth thinking.

Also, I took another look at Wasteland 2's vision document. Holy shit if it isn't ambitious. Funny to see that people are complaining about Obsidian overpromising with a tight budget, but giving Fargo a free pass when he promises more with the same budget with an inexperienced RPG maker team.

Again, it's the matter of actually delivering to the table. DarkUnderlord has a point about Banner Saga - these guys did a much better job at advertising their efforts. Obsidian on the other hand is too vague with their new IP. They had like 6 months to come up with something more tangible than a handful of promises.

And if you think we are not concerned about Fargo flopping, you are dead wrong. We let ourselves ride on the nostlagia wave, but this may prove our undoing

 

[J_C]

Just give us outline of what you are going to include and stage by stage process when features are going to be ready.

We never asked this from any devs who did a KS. Why the sudden change?

Again, it's the matter of actually delivering to the table. DarkUnderlord has a point about Banner Saga - these guys did a much better job at advertising their efforts. Obsidian on the other hand is too vague with their new IP. They had like 6 months to come up with something more tangible than a handful of promises.

Well Obsidian already made more money than they. Also, the guys at Banner Saga didn't tell everything about the game right at the start, they added the info slowly. Obsidian has 20 days left, lets just wait for the updates, I think there will be a lot of infos about the game. And why didn't they told us everything right at the start, you might ask. Well if they blow all their steam at the start, what would they do though the KS project. Sit there and wait. They have to add the info slow and steady. Just like they are doing now.

And if you think we are not concerned about Fargo flopping, you are dead wrong.

I'm glad to hear that.

 

[skuphundaku]

Why should they have everything planned from the beginning? I don't know if you have watched Double Fine's documentaries, but you could clearly see that they for example had NOTHING planned. Tim had some vague ideas about the story being about a boy and a girl, but that's it. They started brainstorming after finishing the KS project.

You're missing (or intentionally ignoring) the fact that DFA was the first major KS project, so they couldn't have expected what was going to happen. But that was over 6 months ago. DFA and W2 were threading new ground so the complete lack of preparedness of DFA and the "roll-with-the-punches" approach to stretch goals of W2 are understandable. Now, after 6 months, you can still do that if you're not a high-profile project, but as a high profile project, you can't afford to do that shit anymore. In my opinion, the best example of how to run a high profile successful KS campaign is Planetary Annihilation. They clearly had everything prepared from the word go, they disclosed the stretch goals in a very intelligent manner and they released enough information for the donors to fully understand what they were funding. That was as close as you could get to a "by-the-numbers" campaign IMHO... which is the complete opposite, in every sense of the word, of the PE campaign.

 

[Mrowak]

Just give us outline of what you are going to include and stage by stage process when features are going to be ready.

We never asked this from any devs who did a KS. Why the sudden change?

Because most KS projects are made by less experienced people than Obsidian who should know better. And Fargo is creating a sequel so people know what to expect. Yes, I concede - he should have given us more, but he was one of the pioneers, so he couldn't expect such a success. Obsidian could anticipate what was going to happen and should have prepared more.

Well Obsidian already made more money than they. Also, the guys at Banner Saga didn't tell everything about the game right at the start, they added the info slowly.

But they did had more at the start, and the extras they added were less vague.

Obsidian has 20 days left, lets just wait for the updates, I think there will be a lot of infos about the game. And why didn't they told us everything right at the start, you might ask. Well if they blow all their steam at the start, what would they do though the KS project. Sit there and wait. They have to add the info slow and steady. Just like they are doing now.

I think you are looking at the whole thing through rose-tinted glasses. All Obsidian has been doing is throwing keywords and dropping names. I don't really see how they could prepare anything substantial. All we can count on now is more sensationalism. What should have happened: they give substantial stuff at the start, and only then spice up the atmosphere with new stuff.

I gave them $20 on KS and another $20 here. Still, this may well be my last Kickstarter.

 

[J_C]

I don't really see how they could prepare anything substantial. r.

I don't see why not. But the argument doesn't lead anywhere. You guys say that they are not giving us enough info, I say they do. We are different people, you expect solid plans from devs right from the start, I wouldn't care if they have started brainstorming only after their KS start. Right now they are doing enough money to reach Double Fine's goal, that's enough for me.