Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Epic Games Store - the console war comes to PC

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

Filthy Kalinite
Patron
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
20,543
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
"The toxicity it brings"

Yeah how horrible, people will say your game sucks. Because it does.

Can't have that
It will be only be a matter of time that some publisher will whine about other games having forums while they wouldn't want one.
"People being able say things about their games; while we have chosen not to provide this feature gives others unfair advantage".
 
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
12,057
Location
USSR
We sold more in the first month on Steam than we sold in over a year on our own. The developers who don't wish to be "robbed" by Steam and GOG are free to sell directly and keep all of it. Jeff Vogel has been selling directly for over a decade, yet he seems to be happy as a pig letting Steam rob him blind, eh?
But I said that as a client, not as a dev. As a dev, I'd publish my game on Steam because it still gives lot of exposure, albeit less than before. But even so, 30% is completely nuts. When Discord announced that they're doing 30% too, I saw it as a stab in the back. They could've been a game changer... The sooner that 30% cartel breaks, the better for everyone.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
Interview with the Spy: http://archive.is/echIy
  • Epic Store will have no forums like Steam community, because "not a single developer I talked to wanted forums" and "the toxicity it brings."
That tells me a lot about what developers he talked to.
:killit:
That's really strange given developers on Steam can Opt-out of having forums and almost none do. I wonder if that's exactly what he said or if our friend Nathan Gayson paraphrased or took something out of context here.

Other than that it sounds like the entire concept behind this is to try and lure developers to their platform by offering better conditions in the belief that players will follow, while eliminating any ability for players to be able to add any sort of feedback or make their opinions known when they like or hate a game, even something as little as a review or a forum post seems to be an imposition. Given that even giants like Amazon, Apple or Google use user reviews for products they sell to sort between shitty and good ones, we'll see how this works out for them.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
But even so, 30% is completely nuts.
Compared to what? Like I said earlier, payment processing alone will cost you 10% with file hosting (pay and download). To get more than tumbleweed rolling into your store you need marketing. Most companies in the US spend 15-25% of their revenues on marketing. So if you're running your own store, you'll spend 20-25% on payments and marketing to sell a quarter (at best) of what you sell on Steam for 30%. Steam knows it and most developers know it too.

When Discord announced that they're doing 30% too, I saw it as a stab in the back. They could've been a game changer...
To be a game changer they need to claim a chunk of market as their own. So far they have less than 1% and until that changes, even if they drop the rate to 5% it won't make any difference.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
I'd rather my money go to the devs than to Gaben, so from now on I'll be buying my games from the Epic store rather than steam, if they're available.

I expect most devs will offer their games for sale on both platforms, while attempting to direct buyers to epic over steam when possible. You gain the benefit of both steams large audience and epics favorable terms.
 

bylam

Funcom
Developer
Joined
Oct 30, 2006
Messages
709
Is this really aimed at people who are bought into steam though?
My thought is that Epic are after the Fortnite crowd who are probably the next generation of cashed up college graduates. If they have to go through this storefront to access Fortnite and you get a few good deals and build a library there, it will become the new ecosystem by default.

Steam has like 60 million users and I remember the stats said that something like 80% of them own one game. I assume Epic are playing the long game here - not going after the people who use steam already, but getting the next group of up and comers *before* they get locked into steam.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Most likely. The new wave of digital stores won't do well if they keep sending people to Steam by selling Steam keys. One of the reasons GOG is #2 is because they sell games not keys. However, with that comes the challenge of convincing players to build their game libraries elsewhere.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
Is this really aimed at people who are bought into steam though?
My thought is that Epic are after the Fortnite crowd who are probably the next generation of cashed up college graduates. If they have to go through this storefront to access Fortnite and you get a few good deals and build a library there, it will become the new ecosystem by default.

Steam has like 60 million users and I remember the stats said that something like 80% of them own one game. I assume Epic are playing the long game here - not going after the people who use steam already, but getting the next group of up and comers *before* they get locked into steam.
47 million DAUs, 90 million MAUs, the total number of accounts on Steam is probably hundreds of millions, but that's not really a relevant metric:

DqJ6JTHUUAAGPtj.jpg


So when Epic touts "200 million player" numbers, remember that they're talking about total accounts and players throughout Windows, PS4, XBone, Switch and even Android and iOS and remember that it's Free2Play and this doesn't mean that these people will pay money because they've downloaded an App from the AppStore: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/fortnite-tops-200-million-players/1100-6463501/

Epic had a Database outage at 3.4 million concurrent users back in February: https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/postmortem-of-service-outage-at-3-4m-ccu while Steam peaked at 18.5 million concurrent users logged in: https://www.vg247.com/2018/10/23/steam-18-5-million-concurrent-users-peak/
 
Last edited:

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
waiting for game journo outlets to lecture me on why I'm a bad person and should use epic's new store as a form of self-flagellation
Alternatively, journos will tell you that using epic over steam or vice versa is a sign of gamer entitlement!
 
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
12,057
Location
USSR
. So if you're running your own store, you'll spend 20-25% on payments and marketing to sell a quarter (at best) of what you sell on Steam for 30%. Steam knows it and most developers know it too.
Problems with causality in your post. Steam is taking 30% because they have a monopoly and can change that number at will, all your reasoning is just fitting, but it's not the actual reason why they're taking 30%. It's not necessary to steal 30% from devs, for proof: see Epic. Don't rationalize or romanticize thievery. You're too in love with exploiters of other people's labor. Which, for an indie dev, is being a useful idiot.

There's two sides to this story. Steam lets indies sell games and make profit woohoo. Steam is a thieving monopolistic exploiter, not woohoo. Ignoring one of two is being a cuck.
 
Last edited:

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
. So if you're running your own store, you'll spend 20-25% on payments and marketing to sell a quarter (at best) of what you sell on Steam for 30%. Steam knows it and most developers know it too.
Problems with causality in your post. Steam is taking 30% because they have a monopoly and can change that number at will...
It's not really the definition of monopoly, but let's not argue semantics. The reason they have a "monopoly" is because they are that good at what they do (and Epic's attempt to cater to developers shows why the others are so bad at it) not because the others aren't allowed to enter the market. Steam doesn't ask for exclusivity, doesn't charge for the keys, and lets you sell your game or Steam keys anywhere you want. I agree that Steam can easy charge 40 or even 50% and not a single developer would walk away because even at 50% they'd still sell more on Steam than anywhere else. It's a sad truth but truth often is.

It's not necessary to steal 30% from devs, for proof: see Epic.
See what now? Did I miss something and Epic now controls 15% of the market? Maybe even 25%? So far Epic has nothing but good intentions. As a developer I want to believe that Epic will do well and we'll sell tens of thousands of copies and pay only 12%, which would be fucking amazing, but I'm skeptical by nature and nothing I've heard so far sounds reassuring. No toxic forums, opt-out reviews, no community - it's not how one beats Steam at its own game.

There's two sides to this story. Steam lets indies sell games and make profit woohoo. Steam is a thieving monopolistic exploiter, not woohoo. Ignoring one of two is being a cuck.
If selling games on Steam were the only way to sell them, I'd agree with you. Fortunately, it's not. There are at least a few dozen of digital stores, so if one doesn't like Steam, one has a lot of options. However, Steam happened to be the best store and people want the best service for less. Why? Because it's nice to pay less.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
It's not necessary to steal 30% from devs, for proof: see Epic. Don't rationalize or romanticize thievery. You're too in love with exploiters of other people's labor. Which, for an indie dev, is being a useful idiot.

There's two sides to this story. Steam lets indies sell games and make profit woohoo. Steam is a thieving monopolistic exploiter, not woohoo. Ignoring one of two is being a cuck.
If Steam is a "thieving monopolistic exploiter" for asking for 30% of the Sales profits even though they market and sell your product to one of the biggest worldwide games marketplaces, host, offer regional pricing, do all the finance stuff, offer community tools, cloud storage and Online/Matchmaking tools etc. for devs, then what would you call retail chains that got 30% or more of the sales before "Steam" and Digital Distribution was a thing? What about platform royalties to SONY/Microsoft/Nintendo of about ~20%? The promise of Digital Distribution from the beginning was that publishers and developers could achieve higher margins than the often only 30-50% of the Sales price in Retail.

If Steam is a "thieving monopolistic exploiter" for offering business conditions better than Retail, and similar to most of the other Digital Distribution partners (e.g. platform owners or even competition like GOG), how is what Epic Games is doing not also "thieving exploitation"? Why did they decide to go with the 12% number? Why not just take 8% that Tim Sweeney said would still be profitable, or why not 5%? Why not just hand them the entire profits while you're at it, would that still be "thievery" in your outlook?
 
Last edited:

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
It apparently went Live: https://www.epicgames.com/store/



Makes sense for devs to get in on the ground floor since they get added recognition, attention and press in the beginning when the Store doesn't have a library of thousands of titles.

Seems that Epic Games is also willing to play the "Exclusive Games" game with Steam, since they apparently have Journey and some other games not on Steam as of now:
https://www.epicgames.com/store/product/journey/home
https://www.epicgames.com/store/product/hades/home
https://www.epicgames.com/store/product/world-war-z/home
https://www.epicgames.com/store/product/rebel-galaxy-outlaw/home
https://www.epicgames.com/store/product/satisfactory/home
 
Last edited:

Mexi

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
6,811
Cuckdweller shilling for Steam like he was shilling for Wasteland: 2.

Anyways, they lost me at the review thing. Fucking wanting safe spaces for developers. No thanks, I love being able to tell developers their game is garbage.
 

Mustawd

Guest
We sold more in the first month on Steam than we sold in over a year on our own. The developers who don't wish to be "robbed" by Steam and GOG are free to sell directly and keep all of it. Jeff Vogel has been selling directly for over a decade, yet he seems to be happy as a pig letting Steam rob him blind, eh?
But I said that as a client, not as a dev. As a dev, I'd publish my game on Steam because it still gives lot of exposure, albeit less than before. But even so, 30% is completely nuts. When Discord announced that they're doing 30% too, I saw it as a stab in the back. They could've been a game changer... The sooner that 30% cartel breaks, the better for everyone.

As a consumer, why the fuck do you even care?
 

Mustawd

Guest
. So if you're running your own store, you'll spend 20-25% on payments and marketing to sell a quarter (at best) of what you sell on Steam for 30%. Steam knows it and most developers know it too.
Problems with causality in your post. Steam is taking 30% because they have a monopoly and can change that number at will, all your reasoning is just fitting, but it's not the actual reason why they're taking 30%. It's not necessary to steal 30% from devs, for proof: see Epic. Don't rationalize or romanticize thievery. You're too in love with exploiters of other people's labor. Which, for an indie dev, is being a useful idiot.

There's two sides to this story. Steam lets indies sell games and make profit woohoo. Steam is a thieving monopolistic exploiter, not woohoo. Ignoring one of two is being a cuck.


Bester...dude...you suck at anything business or financial related.

I’d take my time to respond, but we both know you like getting a rise out of people. I get it.

But remember our bitcoin discussions back 6-8 months ago on discord? And remember how you insisted BTC could never go below $6400 or something due to mining costs or something?

Or remember our discussion on stock splits and your inability to understand even the basics surrounding this?

This is just like that. Bro I love your crazy Russian ass, but can we both just agree finances and business is not your bag? I always asked your opinion on game dev cuz I don’t have the faintest clue about it. I suggest you think about what Vince is saying if you really care about understanding this subject. Cuz he’s right.

Or maybe you’re trolling. That’s more likely of a possibility.
 

Thane Solus

Arcane
Joined
Apr 29, 2012
Messages
1,687
Location
X-COM Base
But even so, 30% is completely nuts.
Compared to what? Like I said earlier, payment processing alone will cost you 10% with file hosting (pay and download). To get more than tumbleweed rolling into your store you need marketing. Most companies in the US spend 15-25% of their revenues on marketing. So if you're running your own store, you'll spend 20-25% on payments and marketing to sell a quarter (at best) of what you sell on Steam for 30%. Steam knows it and most developers know it too.

When Discord announced that they're doing 30% too, I saw it as a stab in the back. They could've been a game changer...
To be a game changer they need to claim a chunk of market as their own. So far they have less than 1% and until that changes, even if they drop the rate to 5% it won't make any difference.

And you are a "Developer"

Humble bundle widget (at least since 5 years ago) - takes 10% and takes cares of hosting, payment, everything, but publicity, awareness (which indeed Steam gives somewhat, so you should talk about that, not payment processing and hosting)
Itchio, Fastspring, BT did these for years since like 2008 (beside itcho) - around 10% same as above

If you want to justify the 30% which is huge (since it takes you another 10% from profits, more or less if you are not from US) so thats a lot in the end, for a hit and miss Visibility it gives you (you wont sell much without your own marketing/pr, but there is a 1% chance to get lucky). A balanced way would be 20%, but hey...and 10-15% for 1 mil + income or so. This is when not talking about companies having between 10k to 100k rabbid fanboys, that drive a release of a game quite well or beeing on codex good side:)))

I hope you are better at design or programming :)))
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom