6/19/21 Vulak’Aerr
Situation
When: Saturday, June 19, 2021
Where: Temple of Veeshan
What: Vulak’Aerr
Who: Kittens Who Say Meow & Riot v. Vanquish
Results: Vanquish trains Riot/Kittens raid, goes on to kill Vulak.
Allegation
Parties Accused: Vanquish
Allegation of Misconduct: Q2 for raid interference (training); Q3 for refusal to acknowledge mistake; Q4 for refusal to discuss alleged raid infractions in real time during the encounter; Q11 for training.
Summary
Kittens and Riot were collectively at the top of the doubles ramp in North Temple of Veeshan, preparing for an engage of Vulak’Aerr, while Vanquish was at the triples flag doing the same. Vanquish achieved the first FTE, executed the DA trainaway, and established a kite of Vulak’s guards in the triples room. During the course of their engage, the ramp area trash mobs were trained away several times to manage guards returning to the main Vulak engage. At no time did any member of the Kittens/Riot raid descend the ramp or otherwise interfere with the kite or any of the trainaways. Vulak was eventually CH’d by a mob, as a large group of mobs wiped Vanquish. Klazdaxthun, a Vanquish necromancer, during this time ran up the doubles ramp alone and feigned death in the back of the Riot/Kittens raid. At no time did Vanquish warn the zone that Vulak was being dropped, and the kited mobs were returning home. (Violation: Q11)
The trash mobs in the ramp area were reset when Klazdaxthun stood up and re-aggroed the guards returning home. The trash mobs in the ramp area assisted the guards, and all came up the ramp where several members of the Kittens/Riot raid, who were sitting, were killed. When Klazdaxthun was hit by an AoE, he stood and attempted to gate, but was unable to do so before the group of mobs all together turned on him and killed him. Subsequently, the entire rest of the Riot/Kittens raid was wiped, requiring a lengthy CR. (Violations: Q2, Q11)
When approached about the train, Vanquish leadership refused to discuss the matter, and insisted that all parties should play on. (Violation: Q3) Vanquish’s raid disruption gave us no choice but to execute a hasty corpse recovery, and rush to engage. Vanquish was rewarded for their raid disruption and ultimately killed Vulak’Aerr.
Q2 states:
Q2: What exactly is Raid Disruption or Raid Interference?
A: Q3 and Q4 deal with what to do when this happens, but "Raid disruption" and "raid interference" are broad terms that cover a long list of things (near simultaneous FTE, training, kill-stealing, setting of AEs on other people, any violation of the posted raid rules, etc).
Vanquish’s train, which wiped the Kittens/Riot raid at the top of the doubles ramp, is within Q2’s definition of raid disruption.
Q3 and Q4 state:
Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?
A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on.
Did they screw up? Yes.
Did they concede? No.
Notice: Vanquish leaders do not deny training our raid or “screwing up.” They only deny that they must concede.
Q4: If we feel another guild/party is breaking raid rules what actions may we take?
A: It is probably in your best interest to work raid disputes out among yourselves. The other option is the petition forum.
We believe Vanquish violated rules set forth in Q2, Q3, & Q11, and we attempted to work out the dispute in the UN at the time it happened. Vanquish refused, played on, and killed the mob. We attempted to work out the dispute after the fact, Vanquish was silent to our questions and then refused to offer concessions. They held back their final response until the day this petition was due. Our only remaining option is the petition process.
In addition, Q11 states:
Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies or zones, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone. This means actually communicate so that both parties have a fair amount of time to work out a safe place, or a safe time to drop the train. Please try not to run your trains within aggro range of another guild or raid party.
While it was fine for Klaz to be part of a train away/kite, he must be “responsible for [his] trains/mobs.” Mobs went and wiped another guild, and thus, that is still training. When it came time to drop their train, there was no communication and coordination with other guilds in the zone. Ultimately, one of their trainers and the train away/kite was brought to our camp and wiped us, violating Q11.
Evidence & Timeline
First video (2:49 min total):
https://youtu.be/WzBYe5fcPkQ - which is a time-synched compilation of several angles of recording.
First Video: 0:05 Klaz can be seen running up doubles ramp to the Kittens/Riot raid.
First Video: 0:14 Mobs are returning from 4-way area and can be seen running up the triplets ramp.
First Video: 0:36 Riot guild chat calls when the blue drake tries to CH Vulak.
First Video: 1:02 Mobs have reset at the bottom of triples ramp from the initial train scare.
First Video: 1:38 Mobs at the bottom of triples ramp are starting to be displaced again.
First Video: 1:49 Vulak guards and others are clearly visible leaving triples and turning to head to doubles.
First Video: 1:51 Klazdaxthun begins casting, which means at this time he is presently standing up (as shown in Video 3)
First Video: 1:57 New aggro messages are shown for mobs closest to the observer, prior to any members of Riot/Kittens raid being killed, because Klaz has successfully feigned death, and he was the only player on the aggro table of the mobs.
First Video: 2:13 Klaz is seen FD at the back of the raid
First Video: 2:20 Klaz can be seen standing up, and simultaneously the drakes all turn towards him. No new aggro messages are seen because Klaz is already on the mobs’ aggro tables, and the mobs all turn on him as one for the same reason.
First Video: 2:24 Klaz is killed, new aggro messages go out from multiple drakes.
Second Video (3:18 min total) -
https://youtu.be/6jd3aj93E_w
1:21 - Klazdaxthun is seen cresting top of ramp, moving out of camera to back of raid;
1:24 - a green drake can be seen in the ramp area moving up towards doubles, and Riot/Kittens raid;
1:28 - Klazdaxthun begins to cast a spell (feign death)
1:30 - Green drake is seen changing direction towards triples ramp (feign death succeeded, Klaz is down at this point).
2:53 - Klazdaxthun begins to cast a spell (Klaz is standing again, in order to be casting a spell, as shown in the third video)
2:55 - a shimmering green drake lets out a piercing roar. (Klaz was casting FD, and upon his successful feign, the mobs are free of aggro and re-aggro on a new target with fresh aggro messages).
Third Video (26 seconds total) -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YojFVGhSEU
0:05 - Klazdaxthun seen standing, then feigning death in back of camp; upon his feign death new aggro message goes out. Only after a new aggro message is seen from a shimmering green drake does Darmai <KWSM> get backstabbed twice and killed, because Klaz was the only player on the mob’s aggro table prior to feigning death.
Attempts at communication:
We then posted additional footage (video 3) that clearly shows Klaz FDing his train onto our raid. Vanquish leadership replied:
Allegations:
Vanquish Disrupted Our Raid by Training Kittens/Riot (Q2, Q11)
It is undeniable that Klazdaxthun ran up to the rear of the Kittens/Riot raid just as Vanquish was wiping on Vulak. The drakes in the ramp area were fully reset, and the Vulak guards were returning to their spawn unaggro’d when a chain of events took place: Klazdaxthun stood, reestablished aggro on the guards, caused the trash mobs to assist the guards, and trained all of the mobs to the doubles ramp. The evidence and timelines provided clearly demonstrate this, and no counter evidence has been suggested or provided to back up any alternate explanation.
As can be seen from 1:50 - 2:00 of the First video posted above, Klazdathun was standing up, and not feigned death when the mobs were coming up the ramp - at 1:53 spell messages show Klaz casting, and 1.5 seconds later, when the spell finished casting, new aggro messages went out from the drakes in line of sight of Riot/Kittens raiders.
At 2:17 in video one, a feigned Klaz is visible in the rear of the raid. At roughly 2:20 - 2:30, Klaz can be observed being hit by AoE, at which time he stood to attempt a gate. The drakes instead bolted for him, and upon his death new aggro messages went out, evidencing that he was the only player on the aggro table at the time of his death. The resulting train caused a total wipe of the Kittens/Riot raid.
The second video provides additional corroboration for this sequence of events.
- At 1:21, Klaz is seen coming up the ramp
- At 1:24 a green drake can be seen following Klaz up
- At 1:28, Klaz can be seen casting a spell
- At roughly 1:30 the drake can be seen changing direction, to move towards triples.
- At 2:53, as the first several drakes are reaching the top of the ramp, Klazdaxthun can be seen casting a new spell (feign death)
- Less than two seconds later a new aggro message from the green drake is observed, evidencing that Klazdaxthun was the only player on the drake’s aggro table.
While all videos contribute to our described fact pattern, the third video is the smoking gun. It provides the exact evidence that many Vanquish asked for: footage of Klaz bringing and feigning the kite onto our raid. Klaz stands with drakes incoming, then Klaz feigns death and new aggro messages go out.
Taken together, these three videos show a clear picture of the sequence of events. Klaz was dirty when he came up the ramp initially, and feigned death. He later stood up, causing the mobs which were still aggro on him, as well as mobs in the assist range of those mobs, to move towards his position. Klaz feigns death again, this time with several drakes in line of sight and within aggro range of the Kittens/Riot raid, and new aggro messages go out when he does so, evidencing he was the only player on the aggro table of the mobs. Equally important, no one was killed by the train prior to new aggro messages going out when they reached the top of the ramp - because the only player on the aggro table was Klaz, and he had completed his cast of feign death at this time. Klaz then is hit by an AoE, breaking his feign and causing all the drakes to turn in his direction. When he is killed, new aggro messages from multiple mobs all go out at once, showing that Klaz was the sole player on their hate lists. Klazdaxthun was the clear and unambiguous source of the train which wiped out the Riot/Kittens raid.
The only defense offered by Vanquish is that somehow, a member or members of the Riot/Kittens raid achieved aggro on the mobs at some point prior to this train. Vanquish has no evidence of this, and our evidence reveals a clear fact pattern that negates their defense. They’re reasoning is faulty because the trash mobs at the base of the ramp reset, and the only mobs which could have been close enough to the raid at the top of doubles ramp, were all fully reset during the course of this set of events. These mobs were only re-aggroed to assist the returning Vulak guards, which had not cleared agro on Klaz yet because he had not /q’d out. Thus, they aggroed when Klaz stood up.
At best, Klaz made an error in judgment because he thought the guards had already reset. At worst, Klaz intentionally brought seven flurry drakes and a number of trash mobs on top of a competing raid force. Either way - this is a textbook definition of a Q2: Raid interference and a “screwup” and requires concessions (Q4).
Vanquish Did Not Offer A Pause, Concession or an Uncontested Attempt (Q3)
When we approached Vanquish leadership about the matter, they refused to consider our claims, and insisted that we play on rather than review any evidence or entertain any discussion. We view this as acting in bad faith and against the expectations of CSR to work through problems as they happen. Following our subsequent rushed engage, Vanquish leaders claimed they “gave us a free shot.” However Q3 does not specify that a “free shot” is a substitute for a full concession. In the above communications Nibblewitz notes that the conversation is continuing an hour after the event - as if the time lapsed excuses their raid disruption.
Vanquish did not offer a pause, or free attempt, and continued the race to Vulak. Given the severity of the train - a full raid wipe, of a raid nowhere near any of the moving parts of the trainaway, kite, or fight itself - this should have been an easy concession to make. Vanquish’s refusal to discuss the matter is a violation of Q4, which instructs guilds to work together to resolve raid disputes.
We fear that Vanquish will continue to break raid rules if they are not held accountable to them as written. If they are not held accountable through the petition process, it is unlikely they will reconsider taking responsibility when they make mistakes in the future. We all make mistakes, but guild relations and the raid scene will deteriorate if folks do not take responsibility for raid interference.
Vanquish Leadership Should Be Held Accountable For Their Failure To Act In Good Faith
Kittens Who Say Meow and Riot regret having to write this petition. We worry that when our guilds refuse to act in good faith, more and more petitions will be created, creating more work for the staff. However, Vanquish refused to respond to our evidence, said “play on” in real time, and gave us no other pathway to enforceme very clear and specific server rules they violated. Whether we had 27 minutes or 27 hours after their train to recover - the written rules call for concessions that are not time based. Moving the bar on the rules is not up to Vanquish to decide. In fact, we all must abide by the letter of the rules as written, or else there will be no clarity on the server ruleset whatsoever.
Conclusion
Vanquish is a very talented guild and has successfully pulled off the kiting strategy in the past. However, that strategy comes with risks of wiping other raid forces when the train/kite gets out of control. Unfortunately, in this instance, Vanquish failed on Vulak and subsequently wiped Kittens & Riot with their train. Kittens/Riot kept its distance in order to avoid interfering with their engage in any way. When Vanquish trainers manipulating the trash mobs brought them partially up the ramp, calls for a cycle camp were made out of an abundance of caution, but were not necessary, as was confirmed when everything was reset (Video 1, 1:02). Kittens/Riot did not have agro because mobs were not in line of sight of the raid due to the ramp, and also because as they were already aggro on a player no other players could get mere proximity aggro. Riot/Kittens gave Vanquish all the needed space to perform their attempt, and did not interfere. Whether by coincidence or by intention, our respect for their engage was met with a devastating train that interfered with our raid, slowing down our imminent attempt. They successfully forced a hurried recovery and by continuing to compete for the mob, they rushed our second attempt. Vanquish took no action at the time of the train or afterward to express regret or contrition for interfering with our raid. Since Vanquish refuses to take responsibility, and since Riot/KWSM have no power to make Vanquish follow the rules, we implore CSR to take whatever action you see fit.
(maybe next year) but I thought some of you would want to know.
Then one night 2 super aggressive large Frogloks show up and start fighting with the players and stuff. Everyone starts rushing to see what's going on and they lose track of the rooms they were camping. So the dungeon starts respawning and everyone is gawping at the GM event, and a minute later it's just carnage, 100 enemies running around killing people left and right, gargoyles and spiders and shit joining in :D I don't know what happened to the first Froglok but the other one ran away like it was trying to flee the dungeon. I chased after it and I was the only one that saw where it went. I saw 20 people hit it earlier and it didn't take a scratch so I was scared chasing it, thinking I'm the only one, if it turns around and hits me I'm toast! But then in the last underwater tunnel, it got confused or something and drowned. :D It dropped two Short Sword of the Ykeshas! And I was using 2 crappy Runed Falchions or something so I looted them and ran away to try to calm down.
