Game News Expect to get spoiled

[Monolith]

Tags: Iron Tower; Vault Dweller

In order to prove to us that <a href="http://www.irontowerstudio.com/">Age of Decadence</a> will be worth every cent, Vault Dweller made a thread on his Iron Tower Studio-Forum showing us a particular quest with all its outcomes - depending on our choices.
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Here's the introduction:
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<blockquote>Today's sermon is dedicated to quest design and choices & consequences. Those who followed the game in general and the Let's Play thread in particular will be familiar with the events. Long story short:
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- you're trying to get an audience with Lord Antidas, which isn't easy because you're a nobody
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- Dellar, the captain of Antidas' guards, has offered you two opportunities to prove yourself and do something he doesn't want to waste his own men on.
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- Feng, a not entirely trustworthy loremaster, has asked you to get rid of a rival recently invited by Lord Antidas.
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So, overall, it's a simple "kill a rival" quest. Naturally, it comes with a double-cross opportunity, so now it's a "which loremaster to choose" dilemma, which poses a question: what's the damn difference? Allow me to illustrate. </blockquote>
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<a href="http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=901.0">And the rest is up to you.</a>
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Spotted at: <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com">Gamebanshee</a>

 

[Major_Boobage]

Nice

 

[Silellak]

Nope. All quests have default "outcomes". If you don't do them, someone else would (i.e. the default outcome will be chosen). In this particular case, the default outcome is "Feng poisoned Cassius, tried to flee when things got out of control, but was caught and hanged".

There is no time limit, so as long as you are in a major location (which includes all satellites), you can take your time getting things done. When you leave, all outstanding quests are auto-completed. Kittens are saved, rats are killed, packages are delivered. Much rejoicing.

That sounds really cool. Have any RPGs done something similar to this in the past? I am trying to think of examples, other than the obvious "people die if you take too long in Fallout".

 

[JarlFrank]

Damn, can it be Thursday already?

 

[Monolith]

What I like most is how he succeeded in making both main options equally rewarding. So much it's actually a tough decision. It's the "word of honour" stat that makes the difference for me. While in a RPGs there's usually one option that's somehow favored, with the other options being thrown in for flavor, for the sake of having different choices (in case you want to play a badass), here both options seem to be comparably good (or bad).

 

[FeelTheRads]

There is no time limit, so as long as you are in a major location (which includes all satellites), you can take your time getting things done. When you leave, all outstanding quests are auto-completed.

Uhm... I don't know. Why can't I do them when I come back? Instead of having them all auto-complete at the same time, maybe have some time difference between them so maybe some will still be available on return. Or have just some randomly auto-complete and others not.

Or does this all mean than you can never go back to a location and that the game will be a linear piece of shit like NWN 1 where they even removed the quest items from inventory if you didn't do those specific quests in the chapter you just finished?

 

[Silellak]

There is no time limit, so as long as you are in a major location (which includes all satellites), you can take your time getting things done. When you leave, all outstanding quests are auto-completed.

Uhm... I don't know. Why can't I do them when I come back? Instead of having them all auto-complete at the same time, maybe have some time difference between them so maybe some will still be available on return. Or have just some randomly auto-complete and others not.

Or does this all mean than you can never go back to a location and that the game will be a linear piece of shit like NWN 1 where they even removed the quest items from inventory if you didn't do those specific quests in the chapter you just finished?

From the thread:

When you decide to leave an area, you will be reminded that the journey will take weeks and all the unfinished business and local events will be resolved while you're gone.

 

[Radisshu]

The autocompletion makes sense, though. Otherwise, NPCs only work as quest dispensers that are be completely static until YOUR character chooses to do whatever they're asking.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yes... and? For the moment it still looks like linearity covered under what's supposed to be a game mechanic.

 

[Silellak]

Yes... and? For the moment it still looks like linearity covered under what's supposed to be a game mechanic.

If you say so. Are you trying to give Skyway a run for his money as "chief bitcher for the Codex"? It could go either way, and from what we know about AoD, the chances of it being a linear game are quite small. More likely is that they're trying to introduce an element of realism and get away from "the world centers around your characters and nothing gets done unless he does it" bullshit that plagues most RPGs.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If you say so. Are you trying to give Skyway a run for his money as "chief bitcher for the Codex"? It could go either way, and from what we know about AoD, the chances of it being a linear game are quite small. More likely is that they're trying to introduce an element of realism and get away from "the world centers around your characters and nothing gets done unless he does it" bullshit that plagues most RPGs.

It just doesn't sound right. Just look at it, it's nothing amazing, it's a simple matter of auto-completing ALL quests when YOU leave the location. So I guess it still revolves around you? If they wanted to make this interesting then give some quests time limits... or what I said in the previous post... or whatever, I'm sure there's a better way of handling it.

Also, warnings like "you will be reminded that the journey will take weeks and all the unfinished business and local events will be resolved while you're gone." or "it's gonna be a long time till you'll get back here, are you sure you wanna go?" suck, mkay?

 

[Silellak]

If you say so. Are you trying to give Skyway a run for his money as "chief bitcher for the Codex"? It could go either way, and from what we know about AoD, the chances of it being a linear game are quite small. More likely is that they're trying to introduce an element of realism and get away from "the world centers around your characters and nothing gets done unless he does it" bullshit that plagues most RPGs.

It just doesn't sound right. Just look at it, it's nothing amazing, it's a simple matter of auto-completing ALL quests when YOU leave the location. So I guess it still revolves around you? If they wanted to make this interesting then give some quests time limits... or what I said in the previous post... or whatever, I'm sure there's a better way of handling it.

Also, warnings like "you will be reminded that the journey will take weeks and all the unfinished business and local events will be resolved while you're gone." or "it's gonna be a long time till you'll get back here, are you sure you wanna go?" suck, mkay?

They aren't just auto-completed. They're auto-completed with different resolutions than if you had gotten involved:

Nope. All quests have default "outcomes". If you don't do them, someone else would (i.e. the default outcome will be chosen). In this particular case, the default outcome is "Feng poisoned Cassius, tried to flee when things got out of control, but was caught and hanged".

So, if you get involved, at least one of two useful characters stays alive. If you leave? They both die, because you left town before making a choice. Even the LACK of choice has consequences. That's good shit.

And what the fuck is wrong with a warning? Is that too "dumbed down" for your elitist sensabilities?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yeah, I meant "all" as in all that you haven't done yet, of course.

And what the fuck is wrong with a warning? Is that too "dumbed down" for your elitist sensabilities?

I guess.

 

[Castanova]

Sounds very good on paper. Too bad each individual "path" boils down to watching your character walk through the environment or perhaps getting in a one-on-one turn-based battle which is somehow just as interesting as a squad-based TB battle [VD is a developer so I trust him].

Perhaps VD should just do spoilers like this for ALL the quests. That way you won't need to bother replaying the game just to find out what the different paths are. Rather you can read the spoilers and pat VD on the back for his creativity in this artform known lovingly as C&C. Unless you actually enjoy walking from one NPC to another...

 

[baronjohn]

No offence, but the writing seems a bit pedestrian. It's a common thing with indie (and some AAA) games. Style is as important as substance.

 

[MetalCraze]

It will be fun if after all these kewl examples shown AoD will turn out to be an overhyped Oblivion of the indie world.

 

[Silellak]

It will be fun if after all these kewl examples shown AoD will turn out to be an overhyped Oblivion of the indie world.

If that's the case, will VD do a review of AoD with the developer's promises quoted right before showing specific examples of how those promises were broken?

 

[Vault Dweller]

There is no time limit, so as long as you are in a major location (which includes all satellites), you can take your time getting things done. When you leave, all outstanding quests are auto-completed.

Uhm... I don't know. Why can't I do them when I come back?

Sense of urgency? Quests that don't revolve around killing 10 wolves?

Or does this all mean than you can never go back to a location...

You can go back and will have reasons to do so.

Yes... and? For the moment it still looks like linearity covered under what's supposed to be a game mechanic.

Because non-linearity means that you can do side quests in any order!

Sounds very good on paper. Too bad each individual "path" boils down to watching your character walk through the environment ...

Care to elaborate?

It will be fun if after all these kewl examples shown AoD will turn out to be an overhyped Oblivion of the indie world.

There is a difference between "trust us, it will be cool!" and tons of detailed examples, no?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Sense of urgency? Quests that don't revolve around killing 10 wolves?

Got that and it's all fine. Still, I don't like the way it's handled. It seems really heavy-handed: you don't want to punish the players too hard by having time limits on the quests but you also have all uncompleted ones auto-complete at the same time.

Because non-linearity means that you can do side quests in any order!

Part of it, it is. And you have to admit it sound pretty much like the way NWN1 handled unfinished quests in a location.


Just randomize which quests are auto-completed or impose time-limits and you have my 50 bucks. You need them, so listen to me!

 

[JarlFrank]

VD, a question about the auto-completion. What about quests you haven't started yet?
Say, you meet an NPC, accept a sidequest, go away for too long and the quest completes itself.
Now, if you don't meet the NPC at all, will the quest still auto-complete?

And will there be new sidequests available when you re-enter the place later?
It would be interesting if some side-quests were only available at certain "chapters" of the game.

 

[Xi]

I love to see branching stories in action. Also, it makes me laugh when people are like "How is this different?" It's not entirely different, it's just better and that's the point. A quest that doesn't have branched outcomes with consequence based on choice is simply a linear outcome. This system is different because your choices actually matter and the end result can actually be different, affecting your character and the world differently depending on the amount of path options.

Sure, if you draw a line and then add two or three branching lines that extend away from it, each branch is inherently linear, but the root of the original quest is not. It's a far superior system to what has been regurgitated for ages.

Thank god!

 

[elander_]

I think choices in quests should actually be part of gameplay and not simply trigger a different reaction or a different branch. It's like playing a Magic the Gathering game where each different quest outcome represents playing a different card and influences what cards you will be able to play in the future.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Show me the demo!

 

[Lumpy]

Sounds very good on paper. Too bad each individual "path" boils down to watching your character walk through the environment or perhaps getting in a one-on-one turn-based battle which is somehow just as interesting as a squad-based TB battle [VD is a developer so I trust him].

So basically AoD will suck compared to Fallout because in Fallout Ian also shot the raiders.
Because that's pretty much the only difference I can gather so far.

Unless you actually enjoy walking from one NPC to another...

"Fallout is a game which combines wild-west and Mad Max style action with interesting characters and involving quests. AoD is a game where you go around talking to people and occasionally fighting."
"AoD is a game where you explore the post-apocalyptic ruins of an empire and get involved in the politics of the various warring factions, though dialogue and combat. Fallout is a game where you talk to some people and shoot others."

Both comparisons are factually true, no? Both are completely unfair.

 

[Dark_Paladin_Anti_Hero]

Hmm...

Despite the overkill of name dropping, characters talking like encyclopedias, and many of the dialog options only providing your character with one or two generic lines, I like how the different choices lead to tangible and logical results, with actual storyline changes. It's about time quests extend beyond killing a man or not killing a man, with both choices being that the situation is never mentioned again, ever, and the only difference is whether you receive 50 gold or LARPer points.


I have some specific thoughts though. I'll probably sound like a prick for a few of these mentions, especially since I haven't really followed this game much, but everyone else here seems to be a prick so let's call it being in the norm.

You are given a pitifully low amount of dialog options. I am certainly glad that there's no dialog 'fishing' (exhausting all options until you get all the information in the NPC's database), I can't help but think the game would be greatly enhanced by providing a little flavor to your responses, and varying them. You cannot say anything to these NPCs besides Yes, No and Continue. It's like a Windows' prompt.

If Feng is helping you to gain an audience with Antidas, why does your character ask him how grateful he would be for killing Cassius? His gratefulness come in the form of your audience with Antidas. Unless Feng calls you an idiot if you click that option for having to remind you why you went to see him in the first place.

The whole issue with you getting a meaty paragraph whenever you meet a new character is very fourth wall breaking, unless your character already knew the individual (which in this case you point out he did not). How about finding a book which mentions this Cassius fellow, or hearing about him from other human sources? Gather a little research before you kill the guy, you cold-hearted assassin.

Vince/VD says this in the thread: "Ironically, killing an innocent man will increase your "word of honor" reputation stat, while saving him will make you an untrustworthy, opportunistic liar. Go figure." Which isn't ironic at all. It's perfectly logical. Who would want to hire an opportunistic lair that would betray them in an instant? I'm sure good assassins are hard to come by, and by being a good assassin you can increase your market value tremendously.

Quest line A: The character plays an idiot when he admits to the head guard that he is an opportunistic bastard, and that he was hired for an assassination. The guard is all, "Well, that's all right kid. Let's go see the boss." What's worse, is that you cannot say anything else! You act like an assassin as soon as you walk up and meet him. There are a ton of possible situations here. You could conspire with Cassius against the man that tried to kill him, for instance.

Quest line B: The game doesn't automatically treat the player like an idiot when Feng doesn't have to blurt out, "WE IS GOING TO TREIK DA LORDGUY! MUAHAHAHA!" I wish the option to get more information was something more intelligent than, "What are you talking about?" We obviously know what he is talking about - we just might be interested in getting more information on what this ring actually does.

Vince/VD mentions this "If you don't do this quest, at some point Feng will most likely talk you into buying this ring. The descriptions will show you various bonuses. Hey, it's not a lie if you believe it. No, the bonuses won't actually be used in combat calculations." So, cursed items and intentionally ineffective items are in play? Nice. Most games tend to shy away from them because they consider the player an idiot. Of course, they also don't offer any method of researching items or item properties, which is necessary for cursed items and such as to not seem like cheating.


I don't know why everyone here is flipping out over the 'question completion when you leave town' thing. If you really cared about the quest you would have done it before you decided to step out of the gates. I think this forum might be filled with more obsessive completionist achievement whores than we are led to believe.

My question: 800x600? Please tell me that 1024x768 is an option.