Factions: what can they do for YOU?

[Vault Dweller]

This is a spin off of the Classes discussion.

What about the player starting within certain fractions? Like paladins?

Usually a faction represents 3 proverbial quests to join and a chance to buy faction-only items. Doesn't sound like much to me. I want to feel that my "membership" means something, I want to see "I didn't know who you were with" reaction, I want some help when I'm in trouble, etc. Any thoughts?

So, don't ask what you can do for your faction, ask what your faction can do for you.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

I dont really like factions, cause most of them are stupid and give no benefits. They usually have stupid ones like "OMG THIEF CLUB LEWL", like they're some fucking little kids group.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Well, factions are a neat concept, but their implementation is a bit hit and miss sometimes. I liked Morrowind and Arcanum's approach of being able to operate as a rogue in a specialized roguish faction, but being under the supervision of a city's local superior agent, and getting contracts from them, or their closest henchmen.

POOP's criticism is unfortunately true, though. Most of the time, you just sign up, do things, get rewards, and that's it.

Joining a faction should be about actually believing in that faction's tenements and living by them. If you joined a pacifist faction, would it be valid to still let your guns do your talking? Would you carry them, even? I think not. I think that quests and associated rewards and perks are okay for a faction, but a faction should be something which the character would believe in, and live by. In the same way ToEE restricted party member alignment, i'd like to see a restriction, or change, of character expression in the gameworld dependign on his/her affiliations. Belong to a pacifist faction? No weapons. Are you a healer of the local temple? Twice a weak, help poor people in the slums for free. Are you a fighter operating in the local fighter's guild? Eligible to be hired by trade routes as a guard, by local nobles as a bodyguard, or similar events. Are you siding with a black necromantic faction? Corpse digging in the evening for you.

Lets suppose you're confronted with a situation where you're taked with retrieving something. When you find the person you could have different dialogue choices based on affiliation. A pacifist would offer to get the item from the person at any cost, but refusing violent methods (which might be impracticable if the NPC demans the PC to kill someone or similar anti-pacifist things). A fighter would retrive it by force; a rogue would try to use subterfuge; an alchemist could use a potion that altered his charisma or aspect to that of a frightening giant; etc.

Also, i was thinking of very specialized accesses and testing for entering said factions. Lets say you just recently entered a monastic order centered around pilgrimage and knowledge. To better understand the order, you and other brethren must travel the world in search of knowlegde (there might be an associated quest that defines the beginning and ending of the player's testing and allows him into the order). You might be required to travel trough perilous places just to visit cities with libraries, or ancient temples.

One other thing i also think is important is the lore of the faction itself. The best example i can remember of this is Torment, where each faction is usually very detailed, and has usually agents scattered about working for the factions. A clear example was Soego working for the Dustmen in the catacombs of the Dead Nations.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Good points, but they don't really answer my question: what can THEY do for YOU for a change. We all know that you must pass the trials, accept the ideology, and perform numerious quests, but...what's in it for you? (other then extra XPs, of course).

 

[Sol Invictus]

Added abilities in terms of having access to restricted materials, like a cache of guild-specific magical spells, special combat feats for warriors and knights. Beats the hell out of XPs.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Well, i'm guessing anything can be imagined. It depends on many things, but i think the primary one would revolve around just what would they do for you - this means creating conditions which would make the PC feel he could ask them for help, in any form.

You could hire men-at-arms of your faction if you planned a trek trough dangerous places. You could have the thieve's guild provide you with safehouses to store loot, and give addresses of merchants who would buy your 'hot' items. But i'd also like to see factions allowing other things, like allowing the PC to have contact with local personages. A merchant's league would be able to provide the PC with directions to a retired merchant, who knew the best traderoutes, or directions to people who could train the merchant in speech and negotiation skills. Fighter guilds could provide special training centers, and even specialized training centers to master exotic weaponry.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Exitium's take on special abilities is also nice. I also liked that in Torment as well.

 

[Slather]

The one thing I didn't really like about Morrowind and Torment (apologies for mentioning them both in the same sentence of course, I should wash out my keyboard) was the possibility of joining multiple factions. Of course, they were implemented differently - in Morrowind, the problem was that you joined them all simultaneously, and apart from one or two exceptions (eg. the Houses) you could become head of pretty much every faction going. With Torment, at least you had to quit one faction to join another, but you could still go round and join them all sequentially (except the Chaosmen I think).

I'd like some kind of exclusivity in factions, and where quitting has some kind of negative payback in terms of it being seen as a betrayal etc. It also seem ideologically fucked up to be able to go "faction shopping" - I shouldn't be joining a paladin's temple or whatever one minute and a thieves guild the next.

As for what they could do for me - with exclusivity, I think the rewards for loyalty should be increased. One way of implementing this would be some kind of timer for how long you were in the faction, with new goods/training etc made available the longer you were with that faction. Similarly, leaving the faction should provoke a penalty,eg. goods becoming unavailable/much more expensive, and even hostile/violent reprisals if that is the nature of the faction you have joined (eg. assassin's guild). Exclusivity would also improve replayability - one reason I won't go back to Morrowind was that I did all the quests for every guild in a single (painfully long) game.

 

[Limorkil]

Most faction systems I've seen are pretty simplistic. Usually the game has a few opposing factions and you can only join one, or the game has lots of factions and you can join several, even though some combinations make no sense.

Typically your character has a reputation, a level of experience and a rank in each faction, but these are all independent elements that rarely interact. The way I see it the character would actually have a reputation within each faction that is not tied to rank, although having a good reputation would usually be needed to rise in rank (except where you can advance through intrigue). What I am getting at is probably best explained by an example:

Take the character "Limorkil" who is primarily a fighter but who also has some thief/assassin type skills. Let's say he is publicly a member of the Radiant Order, a do-good, combat oriented faction. He is also a member of the Night Blades, a secretive assassin's guild. Initially, being a complete nobody, he can do work for both factions and keep his alliegence to one faction hidden from the other. As he helps one faction he gains a reputation with that faction and possibly increases in status. The Radiant Order membership does not mingle with underworld types, so Limorkil can go for some time without being discovered. However, as he increases in status within a faction Limorkil would expect to come under increasing scrutiny from those of higher status, and he would also acquire rivals within the faction. Both of these groups are going to pay more careful attention to his activities and, particularly with the higher status individuals, there is going to be more and more chance that Limorkil's alliegence to two somewhat opposing factions will be discovered, to his cost. He may even end up enemies of both factions, since neither are likely to trust him. At the very least he is going to have to choose between them, and carry out a mission for one faction against another to prove his loyalty.

My point is that factions should not just be clubs that give you discounted prices, access to training and spells, etc. They should be a roleplaying opportunity. Being a high status member of a faction should get you friends and enemies, both inside the faction and outside. At higher status levels you should be able to get help from the faction and give orders to the lower ranks. Becoming the head of the faction should be very hard, if not impossible. In fact, it makes very little sense for a questing adventurer type to be the head of most factions. The head of a faction is a totally different role, with its own objectives and responsibilities.

As for what a faction does for you, here are some possibilities:
- Access to NPC companions that would not otherwise be available
- Ability to hire (or borrow) retainers
- A place to live, or a place to store items at least
- Protection from the law, or from enemies
- Assistance from people in power allied to the faction
- Hindrance from people in power who are enemies of the faction
- Access to lore/secrets/info otherwise unavailable
- Special skills that are only taught to higher status faction members
- Ability to have faction craftsmen make special items for you, or to send lower ranking members to find something for you
- Ability to command and control faction activities against otherfactions (for example: assassinations, guild wars, kidnappings, trade agreements.)

Some of the above ideas are fairly complex, and you would almost need a game devoted to faction advancement to make the best of them. At the very least, faction membership in any game should give you the feeling that you have made some friends who will help you and acquired some enemies who will hinder you.

 

[Human Shield]

I would like to see all faction objectives change dynamically. If you play Morrowind as a lvl 100 god character and walk into the Balmora fighter guild, they tell you to kill rats.

If an important person randomly comes into the city, or a powerful item, what ever fractions you are with should adjust their plans. Including spying for other faction plans, sabotage, and plan to use the new resource. Good guilds mite tell you to protect the item for a time, evil ones would go after it.

Other guilds should plan to attack yours in different ways, etc... Randomize a lot of it and you have yourself a cool game.

 

[Transcendent One]

I think factions should protect their members. I find this is one thing that is very important and yet it is missing out of so many games. Sure in Morrowind, for example, you had free resting, cheaper prices for equipment, large amounts of quests, etc., but that made joining factions feel empty. I expect that since I am doing services for them, I should get that in return. If I get robbed by some bandits, I expect my faction to send some people out to look for those bandits. If I get thrown in jail for stealing stuff, unless I am in a Paladin group, my faction should try to get me out. Of course there should be some basic rules for this too, so that people don't overdo getting into trouble and always relying on your faction to get you out.
I think there should be a reputation system for members within each faction. When you first join it's at zero and it goes up the more stuff you do for your faction that benefits them. When you screw up, your reputation goes down. The higher your reputation is the more likely a faction is to help you deal with your problems. If you just joined and screwed up almost immediately, chances are that you'll just get kicked out. However if you're already a high ranking member, your faction will definitey help you out with whatever you got yourself into. But also your little messups should not just be erased - even if your reputation is the highest it can be, if you still screw up a lot and rely on endless quests to get your reputation back up, your faction should eventually kick you out.

For opposing factions, I liked how in Daggerfall, for example, opposing factions send assassins to kill you. However I also feel like opposing factions should try to convince you to turn against your own somehow. And the more high ranking you are, the more the chance they do this.

Another thing, this is something that relates a bit to the topic, I think factions shouldn't just give you benefits, they should force you to make sacrifices too. For example other than including quests that you just come in and ask for, there should also be emergencies that pop up once in a while that you can only turn down a couple times before your faction gets mad and kicks you out. For example, if I am in the middle of a timed quest and something pops up with the faction, and I only have enough time to complete one quest, I would have to choose between staying in the faction or losing my good reputation with some other NPC. This is the type of stuff I also think joining factions should do for you. Not just benefits, cause then it's pointless a la Morrowind, where factions are nothing but places for extra XP and free resting.

 

[Megatron]

Factions suck a bit I reckon. Pretty boring quests, it doesn't usually matter how you carry the quest out or what character you are and it's just another thing where you do odd-jobs for some agraphobic.

I think instead of scripted fed-exing and a small reward, you should get payed a monthly wage mabye and have randomized quests based on your skills. They should also be relevant too the job, like the guild of cooks won't have you killing a horde of rats, while the local exterminators would. The quests should also be a challenge too the highest level players, mabye if it's something as simple as beating a time that you set before.

You should also be able to hire the skills of employees of other factions, like instead of running about everywhere with a package just get the delivery guy too do it. You wouldn't get any exp and it'd cost something, but it would help move the story along if you couldn't be bothered.

Every faction should have a safe-house and access to some ph4t l3wt. Other things could be mandatory uniforms, hireable faction-members and specialization in skills since you do it so often. Also being able to move up in rank and having it matter would be tubular. Mabye when you're the best you get quests from LÉ KING and get too interact with other higher-ups from each guild.

It would also be nice if you were involved with the faction, like mabye decided on what too spend money on and the politics with other factions. Could be a bit rts-like?

I think it would also be 'cool' if you could mabye join a union so you get less exp but more pay or something? Also mabye getting insurance would be neato.

I agree with most of the stuff in this thread, factions should feel like you're joining a group instead of being a lone operative. Would also be nice if they gave you respect (or lack of it) based on your rank.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Wow, tons of great ideas. Here is how I see it. First of all, definitely protection, if you're in a faction, they should get you out of troubles in faction-appropriate ways (assassins would kill your guards, thieves would sneak in and pick your lock, a noble house would call in a favour, etc). Second, being a faction member should open up some otherwise locked doors and provide alternative ways of handling quests. Third, of course, role-playing. There should be something more then a class-based group, i.e. fighter, mage, thief, etc. Each faction should have a strong and well defined agenda that your character should be able to relate to and align with. Their goals are your goals and vice versa. Growing in ranks should definitely bring you control, power, and prestige. Other NPCs should react to your faction and your position there. Guards may not care much about another assassin-wannabe, but if you manage to get high enough, you would get much closer attention, etc.

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

Eh...I'd stay away from class based factions if you can, something more political would be interesting though, perhaps different noble factions, each struggling to put their lord onto the throne of the land(like the War of Roses in early medeival England). Something like that would make some cities and towns hostile giving room for fighter types trying to increase the standing and glory of their faction by conquest(full scale or single), while interesting stealth missions could also be designed(thievery, assasination, spying), and their are various other possibilities as well for other archetypes. Much more interesting than the basic Warriors Guild hates the Mages Guild while Thieves and Assassin guilds fight a shadow war in the back ground blahness.

This kind of thing would also open moral issues depending on how you want to handle that, and can easily have many shades if you resist a simplistic good vs evil impulse.

 

[Limorkil]

Second, being a faction member should open up some otherwise locked doors and provide alternative ways of handling quests.

That is a very good point and one that I have not seen before. Most games give the player a 'main quest' and the factions are typically seen as being 'side quests'. Even if you keep that rather unimaginative formula, you could spice up the game quite a lot by having solutions to main quest activities opened up depending on the faction you belong to.

As an example, consider a segment of a 'main quest' where you have to deal with a troublesome baron and his castle that sits on a tomb you need access to. Traditional 'solo' solutions to such a problem tend to be:
- Storm the castle and kill everyone
- Help the baron in some way (by doing quests)
- Sneak through the castle
- The Bioware method : all of the above plus collecting the four parts of the key, and you will have to kill everyone anyway regardless.

Your faction membership could provide alternative solutions if you have enough influence for the faction to help you:
- Thieves could help you sneak through the castle by providing a staged distraction
- Assassins could help you kill everyone
- Knights could storm the castle
- Merchants could buy the baron off
- Nobles could simply ask the baron to help
- Smugglers could sneak you inside in a laundry basket (oh yes)

I have not seen this level of faction involvement in a game, but it is an awesome idea.