Incline Fallout 2 Mechanics Overhaul Mod Discussion

[Jim the Dinosaur]

You should seriously ditch "carrying books give temporary buffs to skill" from your mod. As in, seriously.

Because that is just one notch away from the full derpity of Oblivion with Guns with its magical "scientist"/etc clothes of making character creation pointless. If carrying a book negates the trade-off of not developing a skill all the time and/or the time and money investment in learning it by purchasing and reading skill books, it shoves character creation into something like:

You can always check for stat requirements when deciding if the effect should be applied - for instance, you'd need to be sufficiently intelligent and already have some repair skill for repair manual to provide any bonus.

Or you may have (modest) bonuses from possessed books sum into multiplier (instead of flat bonus) to your base skill, maybe multiply them by int as well (10 INT - full bonus).
+20% of base skill of 10 will give you measly 2 point bonus and 12 points total, but +20% to 100 skill will give you hefty 20 point bonus and 120 total.

I'm really liking the multiplier idea, perhaps dropping slowly after the 100% mark or so to a full stop at 150% to account for you already knowing most of the info in there.

Also, cassidy: "If carrying a book negates the trade-off of not developing a skill all the time and/or the time and money investment in learning it by purchasing and reading skill books, it shoves character creation into something like herp"

You do understand that the old system simply replaces this +20% bonus you hate so much with an automatic ~+90% bonus, right? So what's your fucking point?

 

[baturinsky]

Just replace disintegration of books by reading with changing them into "Book of X (read)"

Ban baturinsky.

May be I was not clear. I meant that "used up" books should be not deleted, but marked as "used up", so you can not read them again to get skill, but can sell. Is there something wrong with it?

 

[DraQ]

Just replace disintegration of books by reading with changing them into "Book of X (read)"

Ban baturinsky.

May be I was not clear. I meant that "used up" books should be not deleted, but marked as "used up", so you can not read them again to get skill, but can sell. Is there something wrong with it?

Ah. That would work, sorry.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

A couple more changes I've made that I'd be interested to hear your opinion on:

Attribute Changes

First, I've raised the cap on max strength. It makes sense that of the attributes that can be raised to super-human levels, strength should be the most obvious candidate. Of course you still can't reach higher that 10 strength with perks or at character creation, but it makes little sense that they would take the effort to make power armor, but restrict its capabilities to the level of an extraordinarily strong human. Same goes for Super Mutants: what sense does FEV make if the only result is that of a particularly strong human being? This change has allowed me to put the minimum strength requirement for weapons at the level I wanted it, namely "recoil" (2,3, or 4) + weapon weight divided by 3 (so a minigun is at the reasonable super-human requirement of 13 to handle perfectly, and the 10mm pistol remains at its original 3 strength minimum).

The second thing I've changed is that bulky armor now affects agility (not improved chance to hit, as it did before in my system). Now, starting with metal armor you (and all other critters) suffer a -1 penalty to agility, and starting with Power Armor, this becomes a -2 penalty.

Also, one unrelated change I've made is that the supply and demand system has gone from the ridiculous original price divided by item amount formula, to a formula of original price divided by 1 + amount * 0.2 (so, every five items present on the map halves the price).

 

[dunno lah]

A couple more changes I've made that I'd be interested to hear your opinion on:

Attribute Changes

First, I've raised the cap on max strength. It makes sense that of the attributes that can be raised to super-human levels, strength should be the most obvious candidate. Of course you still can't reach higher that 10 strength with perks or at character creation, but it makes little sense that they would take the effort to make power armor, but restrict its capabilities to the level of an extraordinarily strong human. Same goes for Super Mutants: what sense does FEV make if the only result is that of a particularly strong human being? This change has allowed me to put the minimum strength requirement for weapons at the level I wanted it, namely "recoil" (2,3, or 4) + weapon weight divided by 3 (so a minigun is at the reasonable super-human requirement of 13 to handle perfectly, and the 10mm pistol remains at its original 3 strength minimum).

The second thing I've changed is that bulky armor now affects agility (not improved chance to hit, as it did before in my system). Now, starting with metal armor you (and all other critters) suffer a -1 penalty to agility, and starting with Power Armor, this becomes a -2 penalty.

Also, one unrelated change I've made is that the supply and demand system has gone from the ridiculous original price divided by item amount formula, to a formula of original price divided by 1 + amount * 0.2 (so, every five items present on the map halves the price).

Does that mean you also suffer skill reduction for your weapons coz that doesn't make any sense to me...

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Does that mean you also suffer skill reduction for your weapons coz that doesn't make any sense to me...

Yeah, coz wearing oven mits and this helmet totally doesn't make shooting a pistol harder (by an incredible, mind shattering 8% when wearing Power armor no less). More importantly, the system is predicated on you getting a sizeable bonus at handling a gun when you are more agile, so it would be weird if something that hinders your agility (or is this what you're denying?) wouldn't also diminish this bonus. Power armor makes sneaking, lock picking, shooting small arms slightly harder, and shooting most big guns considerably easier. If anything the penalties are still nerfed, but I'm happy with them as they are.

 

[dunno lah]

Ahh...okay. I understand now but man...ONE, FULL ACTION POINT??

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Ahh...okay. I understand now but man...ONE, FULL ACTION POINT??

Hey, it's optional. To me it's fun and makes sense to introduce some agility trade-offs for becoming a human tank. Armor progression will still be pretty linear (as it should be: it shouldn't be a viable option to go up against Enclave troopers in leather armor), but at least it will be less like a magical powerup every time you get a bigger set of armor.

 

[DraQ]

http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101227094260/fallout/images/b/bc/Flagnarmor.gif&imgrefurl=http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Power_armor&h=489&w=640&sz=181&tbnid=dymmQeHNDC09iM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=118&zoom=1&usg=__ohHNCGHHXq1pBIF1WijgfxIiiEg=&docid=Il0i4aiYcnPbVM&sa=X&ei=feeyUenHC-qG0AWs3oDYBw&ved=0CGEQ9QEwBw&dur=340

What sorcery is this!?

Hey, it's optional. To me it's fun and makes sense to introduce some agility trade-offs for becoming a human tank. Armor progression will still be pretty linear (as it should be: it shouldn't be a viable option to go up against Enclave troopers in leather armor), but at least it will be less like a magical powerup every time you get a bigger set of armor.

Don't forget about hefty sneaking and stealing malus from anything bulkier than leather.

Ahh...okay. I understand now but man...ONE, FULL ACTION POINT??

I love the sound of butthurt in the morning.

 

[dunno lah]

http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101227094260/fallout/images/b/bc/Flagnarmor.gif&imgrefurl=http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Power_armor&h=489&w=640&sz=181&tbnid=dymmQeHNDC09iM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=118&zoom=1&usg=__ohHNCGHHXq1pBIF1WijgfxIiiEg=&docid=Il0i4aiYcnPbVM&sa=X&ei=feeyUenHC-qG0AWs3oDYBw&ved=0CGEQ9QEwBw&dur=340

What sorcery is this!?

Hey, it's optional. To me it's fun and makes sense to introduce some agility trade-offs for becoming a human tank. Armor progression will still be pretty linear (as it should be: it shouldn't be a viable option to go up against Enclave troopers in leather armor), but at least it will be less like a magical powerup every time you get a bigger set of armor.

Don't forget about hefty sneaking and stealing malus from anything bulkier than leather.

Ahh...okay. I understand now but man...ONE, FULL ACTION POINT??

I love the sound of butthurt in the morning.

Arrgh! Must improve my ability to convey sarcasm thru text...

Anyway, if you're reducing agility for heavy armor, are you also gonna reduce armor class for them as well?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Arrgh! Must improve my ability to convey sarcasm thru text...

Anyway, if you're reducing agility for heavy armor, are you also gonna reduce armor class for them as well?

Armor class no longer plays a roll in my system (so just DT and DR), though I'm considering adding a glancing/deflection system, which you can find some details on earlier in the thread.

Don't forget about hefty sneaking and stealing malus from anything bulkier than leather.

Meh, I've never been a fan of (big) armor penalties for non-combat skills; it just leads to thief characters unequipping armor in between battles (see playing as a thief in IE games).

 

[DraQ]

Meh, I've never been a fan of (big) armor penalties for non-combat skills; it just leads to thief characters unequipping armor in between battles (see playing as a thief in IE games).

Well, I see where you're coming from, but sneak is not necessarily non-combat skill - at the very least it leaves combat an open possibility.
Thieving can also become combat easily, although reloading is a significant gamebreaker here.

I'm not advocating armour to affect repair, for example.

 

[baturinsky]

It would be good to change thieving to make it less savescummy. Make it harder, but allow a fail or two without making target immediately hostile.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Meh, I've never been a fan of (big) armor penalties for non-combat skills; it just leads to thief characters unequipping armor in between battles (see playing as a thief in IE games).

Well, I see where you're coming from, but sneak is not necessarily non-combat skill - at the very least it leaves combat an open possibility.
Thieving can also become combat easily, although reloading is a significant gamebreaker here.

I'm not advocating armour to affect repair, for example.

I can really see only one scenario where savescumming wouldn't be a dealbreaker: you're a melee character and you want to get to get close to an auto-hostile ranged foe using sneak before you attack. Here a heavy sneak-penalty for armor might make things more interesting, but this is just such an extremely rare scenario (I can't even come up with any auto-hostile ranged enemies in Fallout 2 off the top of my head outside of the Military Base and the raiders, and I think sneaking weakly armored into those fights would be tantamount to suicide anyway) that I don't really see the point of implementing the change. Or do you know any other scenarios that would apply?

It would be good to change thieving to make it less savescummy. Make it harder, but allow a fail or two without making target immediately hostile.

Haven't played as a thief since the game just came out, but judging from what I remember seeing in the scripts there should usually be a warning before hostility commences. But like I say in the first post, I think fixing the stealing mechanic can only be done with a suspicion meter a la Underrail (though I haven't played that game, the theory looks sound).

 

[DraQ]

Meh, I've never been a fan of (big) armor penalties for non-combat skills; it just leads to thief characters unequipping armor in between battles (see playing as a thief in IE games).

Well, I see where you're coming from, but sneak is not necessarily non-combat skill - at the very least it leaves combat an open possibility.
Thieving can also become combat easily, although reloading is a significant gamebreaker here.

I'm not advocating armour to affect repair, for example.

I can really see only one scenario where savescumming wouldn't be a dealbreaker: you're a melee character and you want to get to get close to an auto-hostile ranged foe using sneak before you attack. Here a heavy sneak-penalty for armor might make things more interesting, but this is just such an extremely rare scenario (I can't even come up with any auto-hostile ranged enemies in Fallout 2 off the top of my head outside of the Military Base and the raiders, and I think sneaking weakly armored into those fights would be tantamount to suicide anyway) that I don't really see the point of implementing the change. Or do you know any other scenarios that would apply?

Why are you asking me? It's you who are fixing Fallout.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Why are you asking me? It's you who are fixing Fallout.

I didn't mean scenario as in this or that map, but generally speaking as in which scenario would sneak be used as a potential combat skill (which you argued for). As I said, if you consider sneak to be a combat skill only with reloads on detection taken out, then it's essentially a non-combat skill, with the exception of the very rare scenario I mentioned.

 

[baturinsky]

It would be good to change thieving to make it less savescummy. Make it harder, but allow a fail or two without making target immediately hostile.

Haven't played as a thief since the game just came out, but judging from what I remember seeing in the scripts there should usually be a warning before hostility commences. But like I say in the first post, I think fixing the stealing mechanic can only be done with a suspicion meter a la Underrail (though I haven't played that game, the theory looks sound).

Many NPCs give you warning when you are caught looting, before actually attacking, but nearly everyone just immediately go in combat mode if you fail stealing from them.

I thing easy way to fix it is to drop disposition of this NPC each time you fail stealing. Besides other things, this will make useful many traits/perk that raise disposition.

 

[DraQ]

Why are you asking me? It's you who are fixing Fallout.

I didn't mean scenario as in this or that map, but generally speaking as in which scenario would sneak be used as a combat skill (which you argued for). As I said, if you consider sneak to be a combat skill only with reloads on detection taken out, then it's mainly a non-combat skill, with the exception of the very rare scenario I mentioned.

Sneak can also be used to get into favourable position during or pre combat. Sneak can be used to resolve combat before it starts, but it depends on how well does it allow you to kill someone before you're detected, and how well can it allow you to avoid being detected after that happens.

The thing is that a lot of such stuff depends on how well do you manage to fix the rest of mechanics. Original Fallout isn't particularly strong mechanically.

 

[baturinsky]

Speaking of sneaking, are there any turn-based games with decent stealth?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Sneak can also be used to get into favourable position during or pre combat.

During combat would be impossible to implement, and like I said, pre combat doesn't seem that big a deal in Fallout because the most potential enemies aren't auto-hostile, and those which are are for the vast majority melee critters (Death Claws, etc.). So where's the tactical advantage of sneaking up on them? I suppose you might have a slight advantage if you were melee oriented and could get the first hit in, especially with higher sequence. I still wonder whether this advantage would be able to offset the disadvantage of weaker armor. The reason I'm asking these things is because I really doubt if I've ever played a single sneaking character in any RPG ever, so I don't have a clue how players play these.

Sneak can be used to resolve combat before it starts, but it depends on how well does it allow you to kill someone before you're detected, and how well can it allow you to avoid being detected after that happens.

Assassinations is an even bigger problem. It just doesn't work in Fallout and didn't really work very nicely in IE games, where you either had the Baldur's Gate approach to "assassinations" (if you could even call them that) of assigning an arbitrary multiplier to damage, or the PT-ish approach of handling it through dialogue (not sure if it was actually in PT; they did have other thieving stuff in dialogue though). This last option I thought about, but don't find very attractive because it forces you to be situational, while you really want something universal. This is why I continuously come back to the suspicion meter idea for all thieving-related activities. Because the key to making assassinations work isn't so much damage, but knowledge: do the target's "team-mates" know that (a) the target's been/is in the process of being assassinated, and that (b) you're the one doing the assassinating. Pretty sure I can't change these things with the current tools available, but who knows what Timeslip (the one making all the changes possible) comes up with.

Edit: Second thought, a suspicion meter probably wouldn't be the best way to simulate this knowledge (would still work great with stealing though). Can see/hear target should be enough to investigate, can see player should be enough to establish assassin's identity. Easier said than done though.

 

[baturinsky]

In PS:T there is a dialogue-based assassination in the very beginning, when you meet first generic dustman.

In F2 there are scripted assassinations of Salvatore and Westin.
But sadly, besides bomb planting or sperstimpacks exploits, no general mechanics for assassination. Even though there are several poison syringes in game.

 

[tuluse]

So besides two mechanics for assassination, there are no mechanics for assassination. Got it.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

So besides two mechanics for assassination, there are no mechanics for assassination. Got it.

What? Where did I say that? If you have a good alternative I'd be very interested to hear it; I openly stated that I don't know terribly much about this aspect of rpg's.

 

[tuluse]

I was replying to baturinsky.

Anyways, the plant a bomb mechanic is even specifically mentioned in Fallout 1 in Junktown.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I was replying to baturinsky.

Anyways, the plant a bomb mechanic is even specifically mentioned in Fallout 1 in Junktown.

Ah sorry, I'm kind of conditioned to look for hostility when posting on the Codex.