Fallout Fallout

[Chuck Norris]

Some reasons why Fallout's RPG system is the best on out there:

- Locations are full of secrets, events and quests, but they are also small. So exploring them is rewarding and fun as much as it's not confusing or time wasting.
- Moving between each small location by a big map which is full of random encounters makes the game fast paced and completely destroys the boring aspects of backtracking.
- I loved the way traits and skills worked in the game. Unlike D&D, you couldn't see the numbers and calculations related to them. Instead, you could felt them. You never saw something like "persuasion failed", NPC telling you to fuck yourself (or in case of voiced NPCs, their facial expressions) would prove that to you.
- AP based 2D isometric turn based combat with those neat animations. Nuff said.
- Most important of all, a very simple (simple for developers to implement it) and subtle, yet insanely effective C&C system was the thing that made Fallout really special. In Fallout 2, you had to deliver a suitcase to Bishop from someone in Vault city (if I'm not mistaken). I simply asked the guy for reward. After 10 hours, when I reached New Reno and went to Bishop, I found out the fact that I asked the guy for reward made him hostile toward me (without showing it) and therefore, he put a note inside the briefcase to inform Bishop that I can't be trusted. I lost his missions because of this.
The thing is implementing this C&C didn't cost any money or time, (In the way C&Cs for 3D AAA games like Witcher and Mass Effect do) but it was so good that I still remember it in great details after all these years.

Moral of the story: Everything about Fallout screams perfect RPG. But there are only 2 (respectable) clones made from it: Fallout 2 and Arcanum. I always wondered why market isn't filled with all kinds of Fallout clones. Maybe it was because of the publishers and the fact that they didn't support this kind of game. But now that this whole kickstarter sensation has started and RPGs play the main role, why the hell we haven't seen someone kickstart a Fallout clone yet? It's not hard to make one and if you follow the formula, it's hard to fail. Hell, even I could design a great Fallout clone if I had the resources and technical knowledge of game making. But for some reasons, developers don't seem interested in making this kind of game. RPG makers have a lot of passion, but their ideas (especially about game-play and story) are mostly shitty and uninteresting.
To be honest, I made this thread to put the idea in the head of a developer who reads these boards (maybe it's wishful thinking, but whatever). I don't care if they make a flat-out Fallout clone with different settings (actually I prefer it this way, because changing something prefect is pointless, even if it means lack of creativity), but, for god's sake they should just do it.

 

[Infinitron]

Tell me this is a troll post.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Tell me this is a troll post.

 

[MicoSelva]

Fallout 2

Wait, there were Fallouts before Fallout 3? I thought it was called 3 because of stylistic choice (just like 7 in Final Fantasy 7 or 2033 in Metro 2033)...

But seriously:

 

[Tzaero]

Tell me this is a troll post.

 

[Chuck Norris]

But I thought Fallout is popular here.

 

[Davaris]

Tell you what Chuck, go design your Fallout clone and when you're done, get back to us with the design docs.

 

[Lady_Error]

There are at least a couple of Fallout-clones currently in development, most notably Age of Decadence and Wasteland 2.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Moral of the story: Everything about Fallout screams perfect RPG.

Fallout was one of the best cRPGs of its times, solid 7/10 but it certainly wasn't perfect.

Here's a good thread about another point of view:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/fallout-1-harbinger-of-the-decline.61917/
It also contains a detailed description of what Fallout was originally supposed to be and what was lost when Interplay and Steve Jackson Games parted their ways.

 

[Excidium]

If there's something Fallout did well, was making combat entertaining. The sounds, the death animations, the floating text, the varied critical descriptions, all contributed to something more fun and memorable than most CRPGs, even if the underlying systems weren't that great.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Tell you what Chuck, go design your Fallout clone and when you're done, get back to us with the design docs.

I'm not gonna design a Fallout clone and get back to you with DESIGN DOCS (LOL WTF?!) just to prove a point. But believe me, if I were paid to be an RPG designer and I had a capable team, I would do a lot better than at least 70% of the designers out there. I mean it doesn't take a fucking genius to realize that all these over the top bad ass high fantasy big ass weapons weird ass monsters emotionally engaged companions are not gonna work (at least not now) and realism and subtlety are the things that make a story or settings interesting and gain the respect of a respectful audience. But just look at the games right now. Even the good ones are infected with these kinds of gimmicks and it's all because designers don't take a fucking moment to look at all the games, movies, books that withstood the test of time and the reason behind it.

There are at least a couple of Fallout-clones currently in development, most notably Age of Decadence and Wasteland 2.

By saying Fallout clone, I meant looking and feeling EXACTLY like Fallout, not just having some similar elements.

Moral of the story: Everything about Fallout screams perfect RPG.

Fallout was one of the best cRPGs of its times, solid 7/10 but it certainly wasn't perfect.

Here's a good thread about another point of view:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/fallout-1-harbinger-of-the-decline.61917/
It also contains a detailed description of what Fallout was originally supposed to be and what was lost when Interplay and Steve Jackson Games parted their ways.

Stopped reading after this:
-single controllable character instead of a party

Is this supposed to be decline? The fact that you control a single character is one of the best things about the game. It makes the combat unpredictable and exciting. I don't know why party based combat is automatically considered a good thing. It wouldn't work in Fallout.

 

[Roguey]

Fallout would be better if it were more transparent about how your skills and statistics affected your lines of dialogue, fortunately Josh Sawyer was there to show us the way in Fallout: New Vegas.

Also the empathy perk color-coded lines for your convenience.

 

[Gozma]

If there's something Fallout did well, was making combat entertaining. The sounds, the death animations, the floating text, the varied critical descriptions, all contributed to something more fun and memorable than most CRPGs, even if the underlying systems weren't that great.

Combat in Fallout (1) is like a procedural Sierra adventure game death generator - it's not really gamey; it's a failure state. I got a lot more appreciation for it when I realized that.

 

[shihonage]

Chuck Norris joined after I suspended Shelter development to work on a simpler and eventually unprofitable game. It's been that long.

previously on Shelter...

 

[Davaris]

Tell you what Chuck, go design your Fallout clone and when you're done, get back to us with the design docs.

I'm not gonna design a Fallout clone and get back to you with DESIGN DOCS (LOL WTF?!) just to prove a point. But believe me, if I were paid to be an RPG designer and I had a capable team, I would do a lot better than at least 70% of the designers out there. I mean it doesn't take a fucking genius to realize that all these over the top bad ass high fantasy big ass weapons weird ass monsters emotionally engaged companions are not gonna work (at least not now) and realism and subtlety are the things that make a story or settings interesting and gain the respect of a respectful audience. But just look at the games right now. Even the good ones are infected with these kinds of gimmicks and it's all because designers don't take a fucking moment to look at all the games, movies, books that withstood the test of time and the reason behind it.

If I had a dollar for every armchair general, that said they could do better than professionals, but won't even put pen to paper... I'd have 5 bucks.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Stopped reading after this:
-single controllable character instead of a party

Is this supposed to be decline? The fact that you control a single character is one of the best things about the game. I don't know why party based combat is automatically considered a good thing. It wouldn't work in Fallout.

Because it provides an opportunity to use more tactics and removes idiotic shit like cNPCs shooting through the protagonist. The AI and indirect control system of Fallout was simply not advanced enough for a game without full party control.
Also, stopping reading a thread because you disliked one paragraph of the first post is pretty idiotic.

Also, most important posts regarding perfection and imperfection:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-harbinger-of-the-decline.61917/#post-1717870

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...nger-of-the-decline.61917/page-2#post-1718265

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...nger-of-the-decline.61917/page-2#post-1718657

 

[Davaris]

Chuck Norris joined after I suspended Shelter development to work on a simpler and eventually unprofitable game. It's been that long.

previously on Shelter...

Here's an idea. Shelter + Kickstarter?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It's not hard to make one and if you follow the formula, it's hard to fail. Hell, even I could design a great Fallout clone if I had the resources and technical knowledge of game making.

"Hell, even I could write poetry, if I knew how to write poetry".

 

[Chuck Norris]

Stopped reading after this:
-single controllable character instead of a party

Is this supposed to be decline? The fact that you control a single character is one of the best things about the game. I don't know why party based combat is automatically considered a good thing. It wouldn't work in Fallout.

Because it provides an opportunity to use more tactics and removes idiotic shit like cNPCs shooting through the protagonist. The AI and indirect control system of Fallout was simply not advanced enough for a game without full party control.
Also, stopping reading a thread because you disliked one paragraph of the first post is pretty idiotic.

Also, most important posts regarding perfection and imperfection:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-harbinger-of-the-decline.61917/#post-1717870

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...nger-of-the-decline.61917/page-2#post-1718265

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...nger-of-the-decline.61917/page-2#post-1718657

Well, you COULD determinate for each cNPC (in his dialogue screen) to make sure he's not hitting you when it's his turn in combat. (Although this resulted in his APs getting wasted moving around a bit more.)
Anyway, trying not to get hit by your companions was a part of the challenge and it made the combat more realistic, because friendly fire happens a lot in real life combat. Also this encouraged taking fewer companions with you. if you could control your party, the game would become easy as hell.

It's not hard to make one and if you follow the formula, it's hard to fail. Hell, even I could design a great Fallout clone if I had the resources and technical knowledge of game making.

"Hell, even I could write poetry, if I knew how to write poetry".

Don't be ignorant. I said technical knowledge of game making, not knowledge of game making.
This is basically what I meant:
" I would write poetry, if I had pen and paper. "

 

[Infinitron]

There are at least a couple of Fallout-clones currently in development, most notably Age of Decadence and Wasteland 2.

Also Underrail.

 

[Tzaero]

Don't be ignorant. I said technical knowledge of game making, not knowledge of game making.
This is basically what I meant:
" I would write poetry, if I had pen and paper. "

Nope, "If i had pen and paper" is the same as having access to a computer.
You have one, yet you don't even try to write that "poetry" of yours.

 

[Declinator]

Well, you COULD determinate for each cNPC (in his dialogue screen) to make sure he's not hitting you when it's his turn in combat. (Although this resulted in his APs getting wasted moving around a bit more.)

Anyway, trying not to get hit by your companions was a part of the challenge and it made the combat more realistic, because friendly fire happens a lot in real life combat. Also this encouraged taking fewer companions with you. if you could control your party, the game would become easy as hell.

Stopped reading after this:
-single controllable character instead of a party

Is this supposed to be decline? The fact that you control a single character is one of the best things about the game. It makes the combat unpredictable and exciting. I don't know why party based combat is automatically considered a good thing. It wouldn't work in Fallout.

To me combat in Fallout was boring and uninteresting.

Knights of the Chalice, ToEE, JA2, and PoR certainly eclipse it quite handily combat-wise and I don't understand why Fallout would not be massively better if it had, for example, JA2 combat instead of this one-person slog.

Of course it would be easy if you left everything else exactly the same but obviously the combat encounters would be adjusted accordingly.

Single character makes it unpredictable? How on earth does it do that? In my opinion it does just the opposite as every single enemy tries to shoot my ONE guy (the allies are shooting me too) and my character doesn't really have many options either.

Don't be ignorant. I said technical knowledge of game making, not knowledge of game making.
This is basically what I meant:
" I would write poetry, if I had pen and paper. "

Hell, even I could design a great Fallout clone if I had the resources and technical knowledge of game making.

What you said was more like "I would write great poetry, if I had a pen and paper" and let's face it, it's pretty damn ridiculous to say that as there are aspects such as writing that one cannot simply clone from Fallout.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Single character makes it unpredictable? How on earth does it do that?

The enemy may roll a critical and instakill you.

 

[Lorica]

I don't understand why Fallout would not be massively better if it had, for example, JA2 combat instead of this one-person slog.

Every game would be massively better if it had JA2 combat.

I agree with your list of games with great combat. To play the devil's advocate for a second, though, Fallout didn't really seem to be going for that. Its combat is more like a TB ARPG rather than a tactics game. Rather than the party building and balance that a tactics game (specifying squad-based seems kind of redundant), it focused on the joy of power advancement and its balancing act in character creation was non-combat vs. combat skills rather than a bevy of complementary combat oriented skills. There are some tactics, but options are limited and the necessity of varying tactics to overcome new enemies is limited. That's what I mean when I say it plays more like a TB ARPG.

What makes its combat good, I think, is the way it meshes with the rest of the game, whether it's combat as the obvious, but stupid way of resolving quests and obstacles or combat as a limiting factor in advancement for characters in an open world game.

In that sense, it's a bit like the gunplay in Deus Ex or similar. The gunplay isn't hugely rewarding in itself, but presented alongside a variety of options for resolving situations, it's a pleasing element of the whole. Not JA2, but not trying to be, the way Deus Ex didn't intend to be Doom.

 

[Brocken Jr.]

Stopped reading after this:
-single controllable character instead of a party

Is this supposed to be decline? The fact that you control a single character is one of the best things about the game. I don't know why party based combat is automatically considered a good thing. It wouldn't work in Fallout.

Because it provides an opportunity to use more tactics and removes idiotic shit like cNPCs shooting through the protagonist. The AI and indirect control system of Fallout was simply not advanced enough for a game without full party control.

There is also the fact that it makes more sense in-story to send a small group out to locate a water chip than to send one guy.