Squeenix FF2: 1988's incline?

[Ayreos]

Around 15 years ago i played through the available Final Fantasy games (from 1 to 9) and the overall impression was that the 2D ones weren't too good compared to the more recent ones, with the exception of 6, of course.
I had not played 2 however, because no matter who i asked i would be told there were no redeeming features in it.

Because of that, i only attempted to play the PSP version of it recently. I'm not very far in, but it's already my favorite.
The short story behind FF2 is that it was directed by the guy behind the "weird" SaGa series instead of Sakaguchi, and while it doesn't play like a SaGa game, it ultimately doesn't play like any follow-up Final Fantasy either.

I now believe it might be the best of the lot and the one which feels the most like "incline" today:

- It has an amazing soundtrack and arguably some of the best tunes of the entire series.
- It is the only (notable) jRPG to allow the characters to slowly grow up into their classes according to player actions, instead of being slapped into them arbitrarily before or during gameplay. Even D&D-based software games suffer from D&D's class assignment, which is great for tabletop role-playing, but not so much for watching a "commoner" character develop into a hero through their increasingly dangerous adventures.
- Unlike increasingly linear sequels, it features actual overworld exploration, and areas with considerably stronger enemies than the norm. (Defeating a few dangerously strong overworld foes netted me useful equipment and spell tomes not available in accessible stores.)
- Despite being the second oldest FF its plot is intriguing enough to make the fan-popular FF4 feel like a shoddy rip off.
- It implemented a simple topic-based conversation system similar to elder scrolls games.
- You can dual wield anything, hold any weapon with both hands, or even equip two shields, becoming near unassailable.
- It is the only FF game to implement battle rows in a useful manner. The characters in the back cannot be hit by melee attacks.

Caveats are the balance of the skill-up system being wrong in the original version, with the difficulty being low in the more recent versions instead, and lack of in-depth explanation of important mechanics, like certain equipment lowering spell accuracy.

These caveats are possibly why the game is not more popular, i believe, as it makes the system very easy to exploit by RPG-savvy players and hard to figure out for newbies. (Many love to say black magic is useless in game and has terrible accuracy, without knowing the game applies magic penalties from wearing heavy equipment like many older wRPGs do).

Regardless of the reason, i find it tragic that a game so earnestly trying to progress the genre by implementing more ambitious story, characterization, party customization, higher NPC interaction and exploration was ignored both by its own company and its public for so long. I think it deserves to be a reference for today's jRPGs.

 

[Courtier]

I loved FF2. I recall going to Mysidia very early in the game when Minwu first joins the party, grinding the shit out of all my skills and praying for lucky monster drops just to survive the perilous journey that I wasn't supposed to be able to make yet. The characters were very personable and stuff like the postgame scenario where all the heroes that died in the main game band together to go to fuck up the netherworld was great.

 

[wwsd]

I got started on this (NES version, never tried the PSOne or GBA versions) some several months ago. I didn't play it very much, but I got the impression that it isn't as bad as it is cracked up to be. The way you grind is a bit silly, but then grinding is hardly a source of joy in all the other 8-bit and 16-bit FF games, so it's really almost refreshing. I liked the desolate overworld theme, with the occsaional airship flying past. Should probably play this some more later.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I started playing this at one point and while it didn't seem terrible, neither did it grab my attention enough for me to bother finishing it. The thing is, the levelling system is abysmal. It's based entirely around actions performed, which means two things. First, you can max out all your physical stats before going anywhere in the game, on the weakest enemies. Second, magic is a giant fucking waste of time, since each spell has it's own xp track, so by the time you've gotten spell A to a decently powerful level, you've now gained access to spell B, which is weaker than A but has higher potential, leading to a whole lot of pointless grinding one way or another.

Most of the other noteworthy features you mention have been in other games (even other FF games) and often done better.

 

[Courtier]

I'd highly recommend the newer versions, since they had a lot of art and ease of use features added and are much more pleasing to the eye and ears. It's not often that I prefer a remake over the original, but these were solid. From what I can tell the PSOne, GBA and PSP versions are essentially the same, though the GBA version lacks the prerendered cutscenes.

First, you can max out all your physical stats before going anywhere in the game, on the weakest enemies.

This is somewhat untrue, as your stat gains are based on your actions in relation to the enemy you're fighting. Meaning getting clubbed by enemies way too tough for you will lead to rapid increases in all your stats (notably endurance and agility from getting hit with powerful attacks), but beating the same goblins will benefit you less and less as you grow stronger. You do make some good points though- for example the ''most powerful spell on the planet'' that people fight and die for in the game is actually quite useless when you get it, unless you grind it for a long time.

 

[Ermm]

C'mon, people nowadays are actually saying that FF2 is a good game?

I completed the FF origins versions, and even the first FF is a lot better than FF2.

The hardcoregaming article kinda sums up my opinions about it.
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/finalfantasy/ff2/ff2-2.htm

 

[Ayreos]

Second, magic is a giant fucking waste of time, since each spell has it's own xp track, so by the time you've gotten spell A to a decently powerful level, you've now gained access to spell B, which is weaker than A but has higher potential, leading to a whole lot of pointless grinding one way or another.

That's completely false, though. There is one fire spell in the entire game. It's called Fire. You level that spell and it increases in power and mp consumption(in the psp version) as you progress. There is no more powerful "spell B". The only better spells are very late game spells like Flare and Ultima, neither of which is actually of the fire element.

The hardcoregaming article kinda sums up my opinions about it.
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/finalfantasy/ff2/ff2-2.htm

I hate that page. It kept me from playing the game for years. He is very convincing, but full of bullshit.

Firstly, that guy seems to say is that he hates grinding and exploiting mechanics to grind efficiently. He doesn't say you don't need to grind. You can finish the game with dedicated casters and no grinding whatsoever, so all of his "need 500 uses to make the spell worthwhile" is lunacy to me. He probably refers to spamming TELEPORT to get it to instantly kill all enemies on screen in one move. Yep, gotta grind to get a cheat spell.

You can level up your hp by hitting your own party members. Do you HAVE to? No. Do you NEED to? Definitely not, unless you want to be overpowered. Is it stupid to be able to increase your skill by hitting allies? As stupid as sparring.

The rest of the time he seems to go out of the way to be funny while kicking what i assume he thinks is a dead horse.

To be precise:
Empty rooms in dungeons: i don't understand the issue. He seems to hate dead ends that bad.

Useless allies: Give any ally a bow and slap them in the back row, and in a dozen battles they'll be as good as any other party member. Or give them ONE attack spell and do the same for identical results. That if you really hate the leveling system. He doesn't seem to understand that the game is about seeing blank slate characters come into shape. You can give them any setup and soon enough they will be proficient in it.

Limited inventory space: He's writing for a site called "hardcore gaming" and he HATES limited inventory space. What else can i say.

Wild goose chases: He literally complains about the game NOT being a tunnel. So you do have to go back to locations you already visited. Many of the "steps" he mentions require no travel whatsoever and are basically quick-travel, followed by quick-travel, followed by a short walk with 2-3 fights tops. The area of Altea, Poft, Salamando and Bofsk requires virtually no travel. I guess the writer of "hardcore gaming" hates quests.

Literally, all that review complains about is what makes FF2 much better than many follow-ups.

The sad part is that the original FF2 version released in 1988 did have a few problems, probably due to its originality, but he doesn't mention them at all. He probably couldn't even figure out that wearing heavy armor harshly reduces spell accuracy and had to grind spells to be able to hit anything. The 20th anniversary edition on the PSP improves the look of the game, but doesn't solve this specific problem, for instance.

 

[Courtier]

Among the editors on ''hardcoregaming101'' are cucks men that go out of their way to review old japanese porn games while screeching ''misogyny'' every other sentence with vitriol, and classify the legendary classics Cho Aniki and Muscle March as kusoge. Anything they write therefore has zero credibility

 

[Ermm]

Credible or not, FF2 is not a very good game nonetheless.

 

[Ayreos]

Well, i don't disagree with that in 2015, however it might not have been that bad in 1988. It doesn't really matter. The game still tried really hard to introduce a lot of novel mechanics to a young genre in Japan. Some of those mechanics, like the progression model, are pretty much unexplored today in eastern and western RPGs. Because of that alone it's worth playing and seeing for yourself, i believe.

 

[Damned Registrations]

That's fair enough, but you could say it of a lot of jrpgs. The SaGa series in general is a lot more novel, and most jrpgs have some quirk or another to bring to the table.

 

[Lemming42]

The atmosphere and music are among the best in any FF game and the plot is a good action plot, dragging you from one place to another and always keeping the stakes high.

All complaints and criticisms of the battle system are completely justified, though. On top of everything else it's slow as fuck, and I don't know why since FF1 and FF3 for NES both feel much quicker.

 

[Courtier]

Fug Unlimited SaGa was ass-shatteringly good. I'll never stop being mad that the game journos shat all over it, and filthy casuals continue doing so to this day.
Frontier and the rest of the series seem overlooked and undervalued in general. 2015 is almost at an end, where is that vita game they announced?

 

[Makabb]

Final fantasy started from 7 and died after X

 

[Lemming42]

Final fantasy started from 7 and died after X

That leaves us with just one good game and one decent game

 

[Makabb]

I tried to play all ff's before 7 but i just cannot get into them, i guess i just hate the weeaboo medieval settings, as i finished ff 7 7 times 8 like once 9 i got bored and 10 a few times also.

 

[almondblight]

Fug Unlimited SaGa was ass-shatteringly good. I'll never stop being mad that the game journos shat all over it, and filthy casuals continue doing so to this day.

 

[Courtier]

Yeah, I also read that thread where typical 'dex faggots went like ''wat a joke xD'' about USaGa, but what these people have in common with the SJW-pandering Kotaku cocksuckers is that they're mentally retarded millennials with crippling ADD. It's similar to how people like this would (and do) react when presented with classic old cRPGs. Play five minutes, not understand how the game works and then go write a fucking review about it. Meanwhile ''FF7 is a masterpiece, greatest game of all time I cried when Aeris died uguu ;_;7''

 

[Jasede]

You guys need to be trashed for liking modern FF games over old ones.

Also 2 sucks in many ways, but atmosphere/soundtrack/story aren't among them. It's perhaps the only actually depressing FF game, which is amusing, considering they always put so much focus on the story. In 2 towns are destroyed, people die and I think by the end of the game half the towns have been utterly nuked from the map.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Well, that's true of 6 as well. The second half of the game isn't called the 'World of Ruin' for nothing. And doesn't one of the alternate realities get destroyed in 5 or something? I've played through that game twice and have only the vaguest sense of the actual plot. Well, I can't really comment on 2's plot, I didn't play all that far into it. My favourite stories in jrpgs would probably be Valkyrie Profile, Lufia 2, and Breath of Fire 5, in no particular order.

 

[Courtier]

Lufia 2

 

[Jasede]

Lufia 2 is good but it does nothing particularly well. Its sole merit is that it does everything in a B+ sort of manner, which makes it perhaps the most balanced of the SNES RPGs. Yet it doesn't really try anything bold or memorable. IP abilities were already in Lufia 1, the characters are cookie cutter, the battles standard. It only really shines in the many varied puzzles, the sheer length and, and perhaps this is the thing that sets it apart, the Ancient Cave which might as well have been sold as a game by itself; I think I must have spent 200 or more hours in that place without actually beating the boss on level 100 at the bottom, or finding all the iris treasures.

But what does it do that's -exceptional-? Final Fantasy 6 has its impeccable art assets, Chrono Trigger has its extreme (re)playability, Terranigma has its philosophical Quinten charm and characteristic melancholy. It's just hard to find anything that makes Lufia 2 stand out. And yet, it would always be in a top list of my SNES RPGs, just because, even without anything particularly amazing to it, it is just so good all around.

Felt like ranting, NieR OST does that to me.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I think Lufia 2's story is exceptionally well done. It's the only game I've ever played with a romance (a love triangle at that) that played out in a sensible way. The second half of the main story has far better roots than other 'save the world' plots as well, since it's based on parents being drawn into the fight after having their child abducted. It also has a lot of great individual moments (Fucking Dekar man, only goofball character I've ever liked...) including probably the best (series of)final battle(s) I've ever had in a jrpg.

I think it's exploration and itemization were done expertly as well. Finding a new weapon or armour in that game after solving a puzzle or finding a secret is often incredibly satisfying, because it makes a huge difference having a new IP attack or the element the boss is weak to or whatever. The only other game I've seen match that aspect is Chrono Trigger. And Chrono Trigger didn't make me giddy 7 times during the game because I found a new pokemon to screw around with.

Hell, I think I could write a book on all the things Lufia 2 did well and why other games fucked up the same aspects.

 

[Jasede]

Let's not talk about this, I think, our opinions on this are like night and day. The one thing we can agree on is that it's a good (to great) game.

 

[MRY]

I think Lufia 1 has higher highs, notwithstanding the endless grind of the combat and many of its flaws. The way the game opens is, in my opinion, the best of any jRPG.