Interview From Torment to Eternity: MCA Interview at Gamasutra

[Vault Dweller]

You see, it is evident now that Obsidian's pitch relied on fanatical devotion of their fanbase and nothing else. They even didn't bother to prepare themselves for the campaign. I find that... dishonest.

How is it dishonest? Have they lied and pretended that they worked on it for months? No. Their pitch wasn't "hey guys, we have this great idea..." but more like "we're thinking of doing a BG-like game, any takers?". At least that's how I've read it. The lack of details pretty much confirmed it.

Why waste weeks (if not months) working on design details for a game that may fail to get funded? While unknown developers should put in more effort to prove that they have what it takes (skills, knowledge, commitment), an established studio doesn't have to go as far. It would have been nice if they did, but it's not really necessary. There is no dishonesty there.

As you can see, they came up with the details fairly quickly (not that anyone doubted they ability to do so), so, really, what's the big deal? I dislike a lot of things about Kickstarter, but this isn't one of them.

 

[Hormalakh]

I don't think Troika is a good example. Troika couldn't find publishing money to make games that they wanted to make. Tim Cain himself has said that all of his games were profitable and that the company closed in the black. He even kept employees on the payroll for 6 months so they didn't have to deal with insurance companies and losing health insurance. Source: Gamers at Work, Tim Cain Interview.

Tim Cain was first and foremost a gamer and a good programmer/designer. He might not have liked running a business, but that doesn't make Troika a "failure."

 

[Mrowak]

You see, it is evident now that Obsidian's pitch relied on fanatical devotion of their fanbase and nothing else. They even didn't bother to prepare themselves for the campaign. I find that... dishonest.

How is it dishonest? Have they lied and pretended that they worked on it for months? No. Their pitch wasn't "hey guys, we have this great idea..." but more like "we're thinking of doing a BG-like game, any takers?". At least that's how I've read it. The lack of details pretty much confirmed it.

Here we agree. They were not lying... they were just "economical with the truth". It was good old marketing over again.

As you can see, they came up with details fairly quickly (not that anyone doubted they ability to do so), so, really, what's the big deal? I dislike a lot of things about Kickstarter, but this isn't one of them.

The details they came up with are "fluff". Without proper plan they are meaningless. It's saying: "our game will have feature A, B and C, [and forgetting to add:] but since we are pulling this out of our collective arse, we have no idea how it will work, or how we will achieve it, or even how much it will cost us". This just is...

...meh.


I cannot rage anymore. What's done is done. They will likely deliver something. As always it will be a decent game with problems. Such a waste. They are really talented chaps. They just lack foresight.

 

[hiver]

The game has been developed in "alliance" with backers, Mrowak.
As all successful Kickstarter projects were and which is the goddamn purpose of it all.
Having the game planned out before they even started to make the pitch would be ludicrous.

I didnt want to say anything about your discrimination all this time but youre starting to sound extremely silly.

 

[Infinitron]

Please stop using the word "chaps" unironically, Mrowak M:

 

[Mrowak]

The game has been developed in "alliance" with backers, Mrowak.
As all successful Kickstarter projects were and which is the goddamn purpose of it all.
Having the game planned out before they even started to make the pitch would be ludicrous.

I didnt want to say anything about your discrimination all this time but youre starting to sound extremely silly.

Me sounding silly? Well, I may have been overzealous in my blind crusade but it is over. Now, over a month ago when I tried to impress on everyone that Obsidian does not have any plan, I was attacked from all direction by their advocates claiming that they "must have one, they just don't want to reveal it, revealing it would be [as you stated now] ludicurous".

Who is silly now, eh bros? I wonder what else will be ludicurous as the project goes on...

But as I said, unless some major news of a fuckup come up I am done with the issue. I wish them luck. They are going to need it.

 

[hiver]

I dont care what some people said, they were as wrong as you are.
It doesnt make much sense to have the complete plan - unless you can travel forward in time and see that particular plan is going to give you three- four times more money then you even considered asking.
or even reach the starting amount.

They started by saying what kind of game exactly they would like to make - and they are keeping to it.
Kickstarter is a platform where you develop a game in accordance with the "fans".

the only problem here is that they basically opened the planning stage to everyone. they did pre-production openly.
and thats what youre arguing against.

 

[Gondolin]

Wouldn't it be better if instead of buggy mess with a few interesting ideas they made high quality polished game that could be held as a paragon of RPG design for years to come?

No. The bugs can be dealt with in time with a patch or two, but a shit story stays shit forever. I still replay Fallout 1 & 2 every now and then. Same with Arcanum and Torment. I haven't touched a Blizzard game in 10 years and see no point in doing so. So I'll take the interesting, but buggy game over the polished turd.

 

[J_C]

Wouldn't it be better if instead of buggy mess with a few interesting ideas they made high quality polished game that could be held as a paragon of RPG design for years to come?

Yes, that would be great. But it is not essential for my enjoyment. Bloodlines, Arcanum, Fallout, some of the greatest RPGs of all time, and buggy mess all of them.

 

[Mrowak]

I dont care what some people said, they were as wrong as you are.
It doesnt make much sense to have the complete plan - unless you can travel forward in time and see that particular plan is going to give you three- four times more money then you even considered asking.
or even reach the starting amount.

They started by saying what kind of game exactly they would like to make - and they are keeping to it.
Kickstarter is a platform where you develop a game in accordance with the "fans".

the only problem here is that they basically opened the planning stage to everyone. they did pre-production openly.
and thats what youre arguing against.

I am done discussing that - I already answered those assumptions of yours elsewhere. I will only say that you are wrong in thinking they couldn't have planned it through. And the pre-production you talk about? It happened *after* the campaign was over, not during it - even Josh Sawyer confirmed it.

Wouldn't it be better if instead of buggy mess with a few interesting ideas they made high quality polished game that could be held as a paragon of RPG design for years to come?

No. The bugs can be dealt with in time with a patch or two, but a shit story stays shit forever. I still replay Fallout 1 & 2 every now and then. Same with Arcanum and Torment. I haven't touched a Blizzard game in 10 years and see no point in doing so. So I'll take the interesting, but buggy game over the polished turd.

You think it's just a matter of bugs? It's the matter of planning out the entire gameplay and making it not suck.

A history question: who fixed broken interface and attrocious encounter design in NWN2, poor gameplay in Dungeon Siege 3, abysmal level design of Alpha Protocol etc.? Do you think Obsidian planned to have those elements underperform? Did they plan their games to suck? No! They wanted to make better games, but hey didn't have the clear vision of their goal and messed up designs on so profound level that no amount of patching will help.

Now, I am not a fan of Blizzard. I find their politics to be abhorrent and their games to be overrated. But I have to give them credit where it is due: they make games they intended to make. It is evident that whole teams of specialists from different departments, from programmers to marketing squad, collaborate closely on each on every aspect of their games. They have vision. Even if shit goes wrong they quickly rally their ranks and come up with new solutions introduced in patches. This would have been commendable... if it weren't used to bring

I wish guys at Obsidian had similar level of focus. Unfortunately, they chronically phail at it. It is a shame.

 

[Gondolin]

Yeah, we all wish that, but the point still stands. I want good games, not good products.

 

[Mrowak]

Yeah, we all wish that, but the point still stands. I want good games, not good products.

I would argue that poor product cannot be a good game. Merely daring, ambitious, experimental.

Obsidian have some awesome people on board. If they got their shit together and actually combined their passion with ingenious foresight they could have been so much more... which should be made manifest in P:E, because as I repeated this is their "golden shot". It has to be much better than anything they produced as a studio. I will be satisfied if they reach BG2 level, although I have no clue (and it appears neither do they), how they are going to achieve that.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yeah, we all wish that, but the point still stands. I want good games, not good products.

I would argue that poor product cannot be a good game. Merely daring, ambitious, experimental.

Obsidian have some awesome people on board. If they got their shit together and actually combined their passion with ingenious foresight they could have been so much more... which should be made manifest in P:E, because as I repeated this is their "golden shot". It has to be much better than anything they produced as a studio. I will be satisfied if they reach BG2 level, although I have no clue (and it appears neither do they), how they are going to achieve that.

But they've been making exactly this kind of game for a long time. The IE-based game. They were the ones who made Torment, IWD, BG. This isn't something new for them so they can screw up. They've been doing exactly this kind of project for a long time. I really think you're worrying too much. If they were going into a new style (e.g. non-IE-style engine RPG with FPS mechanics) then I'd agree with you. But hell, many of them have learned from mistakes when working on those previous games and yet all their roots are in the isometric style game.

They are THE ONLY professionals when it comes to this type of game. Nobody does it better.

 

[Infinitron]

That's exactly what I've been telling Mrowak again and again, but he thinks there's some essential flaw in Obsidian that prevents them from doing anything well, as opposed to it being a problem of the right company being forced to make the wrong kind of games.

 

[Gondolin]

I would argue that poor product cannot be a good game. Merely daring, ambitious, experimental.

I would argue that a polished turd cannot be a good game. Merely technically sound.

 

[Bulba]

I must admit that their latest interviews/actions made me doubt just how much experience they actualy do have. apart from a coulple of game designers the rest seems totaly new to that shit ie this guy who claims to be big fan of bg does not know who boo is or another programmer that did lets play iwd2 and also claimed that he was a big fan of ie looked like he never actualy touched those games in real life. Those thigs make me realy question of whether it's just those two guys are total liers or the entire obsidian?

Now it looks more and more like they are full of shit, don't have a clue what they are doing and their game in best case scenario will be total abomination, worst case scenario it will never launch due to bugs. On the good side you will be able to read story in the manual/seperate book released. Story fags will be satisfied, but what about the rest of us???

 

[Wyrmlord]

When you first announced the Kickstarter, you didn't really give any details. Was that a deliberate strategy, or where you actually making it up as you went along?

CA: To be honest, we had been working on elements of the title only a short time before the Kickstarter started, so there weren't actually that many details to reveal. We did have design time over the course of the Kickstarter to discuss those design ideas, we had design meetings, proposed the classes, discussed the system stuff.

There wasn't a huge extensive design doc before we started. There were just some basic principles for the kind of game we wanted to make, and then it just kind of developed over the course of the Kickstarter.

:facepalm:

FFS, Chris!! Of all people you should have known better!

Back then, Project Eternity was just a notion. Now that they are funded for it, they can spend money on it to make it a concept. As time goes by and more development occurs, Project Eternity will eventually be turned into an idea.

 

[roshan]

Torment "wasn't fun"??? Featured a "vomit of text"??? What the hell is wrong with this guy? Why does he keep pissing on his own legacy? Planescape Torment is pretty much the only Black Isle or Obsidian game that really achieved anything, and the only reason Avellone is famous in the first place.

 

[Infinitron]

Torment "wasn't fun"??? Featured a "vomit of text"??? What the hell is wrong with this guy? Why does he keep pissing on his own legacy? Planescape Torment is pretty much the only Black Isle or Obsidian game that really achieved anything, and the only reason Avellone is famous in the first place.

Pretty sure he means that it wasn't fun to make. Not to play. Learn 2 context

 

[roshan]

Torment "wasn't fun"??? Featured a "vomit of text"??? What the hell is wrong with this guy? Why does he keep pissing on his own legacy? Planescape Torment is pretty much the only Black Isle or Obsidian game that really achieved anything, and the only reason Avellone is famous in the first place.

Pretty sure he means that it wasn't fun to make. Not to play. Learn 2 context

That doesn't make much sense. It's kinda obvious from the game itself that whoever designed those quests and areas poured lots of creativity and passion into it. I would think whoever designed the game had a pretty good time at it. From the interview: "I really enjoyed writing and designing that game."

 

[Infinitron]

That doesn't make much sense. It's kinda obvious from the game itself that whoever designed those quests and areas poured lots of creativity and passion into it. I would think whoever designed the game had a pretty good time at it. From the interview: "I really enjoyed writing and designing that game."

PS:T was a death march for MCA, this is well known. He ruined his health working on that game.

 

[Rake]

http://colinmccomb.com/?p=157
Blog post from Avellone's partner.
Let's hope that is Obsidians next kickstarter

 

[Infinitron]

http://colinmccomb.com/?p=157
Blog post from Avellone's partner.
Let's hope that is Obsidians next kickstarter

Fuck, I should have seen this yesterday.

 

[Gondolin]

I think the real strength of the game – certainly from my perspective – was that we wanted to make a conscious effort to avoid overly repetitive dialogues with most characters. Some of them, sure, it’s unavoidable. But we wanted to make dialogue feel more organic than a five-node dialogue tree, and we took care to make many dialogues condition-dependent – Intelligence scores, possessions, party members, and so forth.

That’s the kind of thing I’d like to do again. Based on the team we had for Wasteland 2, I think it’s possible.

Make it happen, Mr. McComb.

 

[Rake]

Question. Has any of you read McComb's books? Are they good?