Interview From Torment to Eternity: MCA Interview at Gamasutra

[Roguey]

Torment "wasn't fun"??? Featured a "vomit of text"??? What the hell is wrong with this guy? Why does he keep pissing on his own legacy? Planescape Torment is pretty much the only Black Isle or Obsidian game that really achieved anything, and the only reason Avellone is famous in the first place.

Pretty sure he means that it wasn't fun to make. Not to play. Learn 2 context

He doesn't think it's fun to play either. "Games shouldn't be boring novels with bad combat"-- a sentiment Avellone has expressed multiple times.

 

[Infinitron]

He doesn't think it's fun to play either. "Games shouldn't be boring novels with bad combat"-- a sentiment Avellone has expressed multiple times.

That may be so, but the usage of the phrases "at the time, at certain points" indicate that is not what he meant in this particular instance.

 

[Brother None]

http://colinmccomb.com/?p=157
Blog post from Avellone's partner.
Let's hope that is Obsidians next kickstarter

Fuck, I should have seen this yesterday.

You should have. It's interesting. For a variety of reasons.

Torment "wasn't fun"??? Featured a "vomit of text"??? What the hell is wrong with this guy? Why does he keep pissing on his own legacy? Planescape Torment is pretty much the only Black Isle or Obsidian game that really achieved anything, and the only reason Avellone is famous in the first place.

He's said so before. He regrets focusing only on writing and not enough on the gameplay elements of Torment.

 

[Infinitron]

You should have. It's interesting. For a variety of reasons.

I see what you did there.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Okay, it's time to settle this once and for all.

Paging Anthony Davis!

Is it normal for a professional developer's pitch to a publisher to be about as sparse in detail as Project Eternity was when its Kickstarter was launched?

Not always. Sometimes there is more detail, sometimes there is less. It doesn't really matter though because I can guarantee the finished game won't look like the original pitch. Scope, Time, Resources, and New Ideas can all affect the final product.

I have a hard copy of the original Planescape Torment pitch, a gift from Avellone, and while you can most certainly tell it is Torment, it is not remotely the same as the final game.


Project Eternity, and other Kickstarter/Indie funded games, have an advantage in that they can tailor the game content to what people want because they are communication with the fans as part of the funding process.


With publishers you have to actually argue and convince them what the fans may or may not like.

 

[Infinitron]

Not always. Sometimes there is more detail, sometimes there is less. It doesn't really matter though because I can guarantee the finished game won't look like the original pitch. Scope, Time, Resources, and New Ideas can all affect the final product.

Well, I did say "about as sparse". How do Project Eternity, and Kickstarter pitches in general, compare to pitches to publishers, on average?

And yes, we're aware of the original PS:T pitch. *shudder*

 

[hiver]

I am done discussing that -

yeah? well, probably for the best. cause youre not making any sense at all.

I will only say that you are wrong in thinking they couldn't have planned it through. And the pre-production you talk about? It happened *after* the campaign was over, not during it - even Josh Sawyer confirmed it.

it started happening the moment they all set down and started discussing the project ideas, went on through kickstarter and is still going on - right now.[/quote]

 

[Brother None]

I have a hard copy of the original Planescape Torment pitch, a gift from Avellone, and while you can most certainly tell it is Torment, it is not remotely the same as the final game.

I do believe that's this pitch. And yes, pretty much that. Very different, very sketchy on some points, very "holy crap I can't believe the Interplay chiefs ok'd this to go forward".

 

[Anthony Davis]

Not always. Sometimes there is more detail, sometimes there is less. It doesn't really matter though because I can guarantee the finished game won't look like the original pitch. Scope, Time, Resources, and New Ideas can all affect the final product.

Well, I did say "about as sparse". How do Project Eternity, and Kickstarter pitches in general, compare to pitches to publishers, on average?

And yes, we're aware of the original PS:T pitch. *shudder*

I can only speak for what I saw at Obsidian and what I have read in game journals.

What was shown for eternity initially, and there may have been more that wasn't shown, was lighter than most.

However, kick starter != publisher. Kick starter needs to be short, dynamic and clever. Think about doublefine's kick starter, we knew NOTHING about their game other than it would be an adventure game and Schaeffer and Gilbert would be working on it, which was enough for me.

 

[ironyuri]

Anthony Davis

Just jumping in here: What the fans want is not necessarily the artistic vision the developers want to deliver. Focus groups do not a game make and communication does not necessarily a good game make. I'd rather a game Sawyer and Avellone *want* to make, then a game they want their fans to like.

 

[Infinitron]

Not always. Sometimes there is more detail, sometimes there is less. It doesn't really matter though because I can guarantee the finished game won't look like the original pitch. Scope, Time, Resources, and New Ideas can all affect the final product.

Well, I did say "about as sparse". How do Project Eternity, and Kickstarter pitches in general, compare to pitches to publishers, on average?

And yes, we're aware of the original PS:T pitch. *shudder*

I can only speak for what I saw at Obsidian and what I have read in game journals.

What was shown for eternity initially, and there may have been more that wasn't shown, was lighter than most.

However, kick starter != publisher. Kick starter needs to be short, dynamic and clever. Think about doublefine's kick starter, we knew NOTHING about their game other than it would be an adventure game and Schaeffer and Gilbert would be working on it, which was enough for me.

Thanks. Would you say that by the end of the Kickstarter, it was about as informative as a publisher pitch? Or still less?

 

[Roguey]

Just jumping in here: What the fans want is not necessarily the artistic vision the developers want to deliver. Focus groups do not a game make and communication does not necessarily a good game make. I'd rather a game Sawyer and Avellone *want* to make, then a game they want their fans to like.

Game developers make games for their audiences, not themselves. Sawyer's mentioned before that very few people would be interested in something that catered completely to his tastes.

Of course I'm sure they all want to make an Infinity Engine-successor with good art, writing, and gameplay.

 

[ironyuri]

And I'd also add that "an adventure game by Schaeffer" etc, or a "game by MCA/Sawyer" is not enough. Yes, they have a proven record. But it is not enough for them to ask for a few million and say "hey it's us, trust us". It maintains the same closed system that has spiralled into the closed games industry of today.

Kickstarter is the game-ification of funding as much as anything. Stretch goals are like internet trophs or badges you earn by spending more real money on concepts which may or may not ever end up coming into existence depending on the development cycle. The system is highly flawed, and while I'm willing to give Obsidian, nXile, etc. the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves untrustworthy, that does not change that the structure of the kickstarter system is flawed.

We, the funders, are the publishers. We are paying for the game's development and release. Plain and simple, it's our money that is providing for this game's existence and the work of the team. I can happily give them my money, small as the amount may have been, on the basis of it being an RPG by Josh Sawyer, but when I did it, it was because I want it to be his work. Not his work as negotiated with ten thousand fans who pull in different directions. I want Sawyer to show me what he can do without interference, and then if he pulls off something great, I'll give him more money next time.

Roguey

There's a difference between making a game for your audience because it's your vision, or making one for your audience because it's what they want.

In the first case, Sawyer is his own audience. We're all probably educated 20-30 something men who have had some experience of pen and paper roleplaying and who enjoy the kind of games we all grew up with in the golden age of rpgs. That's an audience.

In the second case, if ten thousand fans want anal sex with dwarves in the game. That's making a game that your audience wants. That might be shit in practice.

 

[Marsal]

AIn the second case, if ten thousand fans want anal sex with dwarves in the game. That's making a game that your audience wants. That might be shit in practice.

You can never go wrong by adding anal sex with dwarves, bro. Just ask Volourn.

 

[Roguey]

We're all probably educated 20-30 something men who have had some experience of pen and paper roleplaying and who enjoy the kind of games we all grew up with in the golden age of rpgs. That's an audience.

Hh.

In the second case, if ten thousand fans want anal sex with dwarves in the game. That's making a game that your audience wants. That might be shit in practice.

http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36725834932/on-narrative-design-part-4-creating-characters

Some people don’t like romances, for instance, and fair enough. Personally, I get a bit annoyed at those who sneer at us “pandering to the fangirls” by including them. Pandering being the operative word, one assumes, because we aren’t pandering to them. Which then wouldn’t be pandering, obviously, as it would be… oh, let’s say art.

 

[ironyuri]

 

[Marsal]

We're all probably educated 20-30 something men who have had some experience of pen and paper roleplaying and who enjoy the kind of games we all grew up with in the golden age of rpgs. That's an audience.

Hh.

After recent tranny "incidents", the new policy is to require proof.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Anthony Davis

Just jumping in here: What the fans want is not necessarily the artistic vision the developers want to deliver. Focus groups do not a game make and communication does not necessarily a good game make. I'd rather a game Sawyer and Avellone *want* to make, then a game they want their fans to like.

Of course.

Most of the things added as stretch goals aren't the point of the game, they are extras that the game doesn't need.

 

[Gondolin]

Such as a pre-production budget for another game?

 

[tuluse]

We're all probably educated 20-30 something men who have had some experience of pen and paper roleplaying and who enjoy the kind of games we all grew up with in the golden age of rpgs. That's an audience.

Hh.

In the second case, if ten thousand fans want anal sex with dwarves in the game. That's making a game that your audience wants. That might be shit in practice.

http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36725834932/on-narrative-design-part-4-creating-characters

Some people don’t like romances, for instance, and fair enough. Personally, I get a bit annoyed at those who sneer at us “pandering to the fangirls” by including them. Pandering being the operative word, one assumes, because we aren’t pandering to them. Which then wouldn’t be pandering, obviously, as it would be… oh, let’s say art.

Does Gaider et all include romances because it's the stories they want to write or because the loudest of their fanbase clamors for them?

I'm pretty sure they do pander shamelessly and he's lying through his teeth right here, while mis-characterizing the criticism.

 

[Roguey]

Does Gaider et all include romances because it's the stories they want to write or because the loudest of their fanbase clamors for them?

I'm pretty sure they do pander shamelessly and he's lying through his teeth right here, while mis-characterizing the criticism.

They want to write them, and Bioware hires writers who want to write them. Patrick Weekes wrote this thing ages ago.

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah, if there's one thing I'm convinced of, it's that Bioware's writers truly are proud of their mediocrity. They are the Masters of Middlebrow.

 

[Anthony Davis]

We're all probably educated 20-30 something men who have had some experience of pen and paper roleplaying and who enjoy the kind of games we all grew up with in the golden age of rpgs. That's an audience.

Hh.

In the second case, if ten thousand fans want anal sex with dwarves in the game. That's making a game that your audience wants. That might be shit in practice.

http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36725834932/on-narrative-design-part-4-creating-characters

Some people don’t like romances, for instance, and fair enough. Personally, I get a bit annoyed at those who sneer at us “pandering to the fangirls” by including them. Pandering being the operative word, one assumes, because we aren’t pandering to them. Which then wouldn’t be pandering, obviously, as it would be… oh, let’s say art.

Does Gaider et all include romances because it's the stories they want to write or because the loudest of their fanbase clamors for them?

I'm pretty sure they do pander shamelessly and he's lying through his teeth right here, while mis-characterizing the criticism.

Agreed.

I like David Gaider, a lot, and I have a lot of respect for him, but that is a stupid thing to say and argue. He doesn't even state what the opposition's demands ARE. It's like trying to prove a negative, it can't be done, and it's poor form to boot.

Most of the people I know who are anti-romance in RPGs is not born out of some hatred for the idea of a romance, but rather the end result is always the same, spending resources to PANDER to a subset of fans that seek validation and some sort of shallow emotional fulfillment from whichever video game character they tried to romance. It's kind of sad.
I don't agree with Josh Sawyer all the time, but on this point he and I see eye to eye. The only game to have done romance right was Tim Schaeffer's Full Throttle. Everything else is just self-indulgent intellectual masturbation... and in some cases actual masturbation too I'm sure.


I mean look at the history of it and imagine NOT calling this pandering:

First it was adding just a romance for the male protagonist.
Then it was adding one if the player decided to play as a female protagonist.
Then it was add more romantic options, ie. I want to romance the tough girl/guy, or the sweet girl/guy.
Then it was answering the demand for same sex relationships.
... and now we have Commander Sheppard nailing any orifice within reach.

I would honestly not be surprised if DA3 just said the hell with it and added bestiality into it, ala protagonist sex with a dragon or something else.


Now I want to be clear here. I think originally the intention was neat, and adding the diversity was a noble intention, but he only does it for romances, which is kind of insulting, and I think the end result has now become a laughing stock.



Adding Romances, if you are going to add them, should be because it is central to the narrative or point of the game. Then it becomes one of your core pillars. For example, if you were making an RPG about a marriage, or a High School RPG which would involve dating, or simply a dating sim.

 

[Roguey]

I don't agree with Josh Sawyer all the time, but on this point he and I see eye to eye. The only game to have done romance right was Tim Schaeffer's Full Throttle.

There was nothing wrong with Safiya. It made sense given the circumstances and it didn't get gross. Gann was superfluous, sure.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I don't agree with Josh Sawyer all the time, but on this point he and I see eye to eye. The only game to have done romance right was Tim Schaeffer's Full Throttle.

There was nothing wrong with Safiya. It made sense given the circumstances and it didn't get gross. Gann was superfluous, sure.

As much as I like MotB and as proud as I am of it, it didn't need the romances.

From a DEVELOPER point of view though, I found it FASCINATING because George Zeits and Chris Avellone, two master writers, worked, discussed, disagreed, and collaborated on a lot of the character dialogues and romances.

Chris I think had a lot more in common with Josh, and George probably a lot more with Gaider. In the end, they both learned something from each other.