Fuck YES!

[Phelot]

I must admit that Skyrim has made me want to go back through Daggerfall and Morrowind.

 

[Phelot]

The BG2 villain is indeed a late '90s JRPG pattern antagonist although I don't remember his sympathetic backstory

HIS ONLY CRIME WAS THAT HE LOVED

 

[Menckenstein]

I remember hating Arena because you had to fill out a fucking TPS report to select a spell.

 

[Jaesun]

Jaesun trying to act all mature, what a riot.

At least I am not a shit spam poster.

 

[Disconnected]

He had a fucking long sword and long, white hair @_@
And being angsty because you're not able to fuck your mommy isn't that much different for being angsty because you're not able to fuck some ugly elf queen.

Was there more to Sephiroth than mommy issues and a hefty doze of teh crazies?

Also, if you really have to reduce Irenicus to the absurd, wouldn't "artificial boy wants to be real" be more appropriate? - The whole elf fucking/cloning business was, after all, just an example of the really-really wrong excess an unemotional intelligence might go to, in its pursuit to understand and recreate its ability to love.

 

[Gragt]

So I have this perverse completionist mentality that forces me to read all books by an author, play all games in a series (in order), etc. Well after messing around with Skyrim for a bit, I decided I'd go through the Elder Scrolls series from start to finish since I had never finished Arena and had never even played Battlespire or Redguard. As you might imagine, I started with Arena and I quickly remembered why I had never finished it -- the game is fucking terrible. One long ass dungeon crawl after another with no other real gameplay to break up the monotony makes for a terribly boring game. "But", I told myself, "the latter games always refer to the period of the Imperial Simulacrum and the arch-traitor Jagar Tharn. If I don't finish this game I'll be tormented by my failure as I continue through the series."

Well, just a moment ago, I touched the staff of chaos to jewel of fire and watched Jagar Tharn melt. I feel proud, in a "why the fuck did I just subject myself to all of that" sort of way. At least I never have to play this game again.

You know, I did that last year but with Oblivion. Your tale is more prestigious than mine.

 

[curry]

I want to know what dickhead designed Irenicus' BDSM costume.

Really? I thought he was just a writer

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

He had a fucking long sword and long, white hair @_@
And being angsty because you're not able to fuck your mommy isn't that much different for being angsty because you're not able to fuck some ugly elf queen.

Was there more to Sephiroth than mommy issues and a hefty doze of teh crazies?

Also, if you really have to reduce Irenicus to the absurd, wouldn't "artificial boy wants to be real" be more appropriate? - The whole elf fucking/cloning business was, after all, just an example of the really-really wrong excess an unemotional intelligence might go to, in its pursuit to understand and recreate its ability to love.

Personally I've always disliked Irenicus. His character is a rather disjointed mess of ideas, and ultimately he's just another generically evil villain who wants to be a god. The main thing going for him is that his got a good design and voice actor.


Anyway, on the subject of Sephiroth, it's way worse than just going teh crazies over mommy issues. No, he also somehow had the notion that everybody hated him and some bullshit, which made no goddamn sense since in-universe he got showered with more praise and admiration than fucking Commander Shepard or Revan. And then he went crazy because BAWWWWW MOMMY WAS NOT HUMAN and BAWWWWW EVERYBODY HATES ME. Annoying prick.

 

[Metro]

I've never understood the plot of FF7.

 

[Azarkon]

Arena was a great game. The spell creation system at the time was revolutionary, though I do believe they took a good step in Skyrim by removing it, something which should have been done in Morrowind. And yes, the trick to beating Arena and Daggerfall with less frustration is mastering the Passwall spell.

Regarding villains, Irenicus was definately memorable. Excellently voiced too.Much better than Sarevok. Bodhi was stupid, however.

You know, now that I think of it crpgs lack for good, memorable villains. Fallouts had crap villains, Arcanum had a crap villain, KOTOR had a crap villain, Wizardry 8 had a crap villain (c'mon the Dark Savant was pretty stupid looking) all TES's have had crap villains, etc etc. The last great memorable villain I can recall before Baldurs Gate 2 was Batlin from Ultima 7. Not the Guardian though, as he was retarded.

Before that...I can't really think of any great villains in crpgs. Actually, this is where jrpg's somewhat shine. Dragonquest 8 had a great villain, the Dhoulmagus, Final Fantasy X had a great villain, Seymour, etc etc.

JRPG villains are, most of the times, stylishly dressed eye candies that are retarded, ridiculous, or both. When Sephiroth gets held up as one of the greatest JRPG villains of all time (because he killed Aerith, the horror), your genre has issues.

PST had one of the best video game villains in the form of "yourself." Adventure games, action games, and hybrid RPGs like SS2 and Bioshock seem to have better villains than RPGs in general.

Irenicus was good mostly because 1) he had a good voice actor and 2) he was in your face for most of the game, which is a hard effect to achieve without making the villain seem contrived and retarded.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

JRPGs do have a much bigger problem with retarded fandom than WRPGs though. Until recent years, the problems with Bethtards and Biotards seemed trivial next to the retardation going on in the JRPG crowd.

 

[Azarkon]

Flies are attracted to turds.

The community surrounding a game isn't arbitrarily determined. You get what you put out, or in this case, shit out.

 

[PorkaMorka]

I can't come up with anything nice to say about Irenicus.

Terrible 90s character design.

His motivation was entirely forgettable. (Indeed, I pretty much forgot what it was immediately).

I had no idea why I was supposed to hate him except that he was involved in a lot of irritating cutscenes that served as an excuse to force the plot to go in a certain direction.

Sarevok > Irenicus.

In fact, most generic bad guys who burned down the main character's village > Irenecus.

 

[Grunker]

 

[Azarkon]

His ultimate motivation was shit, but ultimate motivation isn't always what's most important about a villain, especially when the main attraction of a villain like Irenicus is the way he drives you to chase him down and fuck him up.

And that's where it matters - presentation. Sarevok was a more sympathetic villain and had better motivations. But he was an absentee villain who you came to appreciate only in retrospect. Irenicus treated you and your friends like lab rats right off the bat, and screws with you, your friends, and your party composition so constantly that you begin to hate his guts.

If PST was about realizing hubris and regret, BG 2 was your standard clash of good and evil, and just as the incarnations were the manifestation of a (ultimately very human) tragedy, Irenicus was the personification of the amoral arch-villain who screws with people's lives and, until the end of the game, gets away with it.

 

[Turjan]

I had no idea why I was supposed to hate him...

Well. What to say to this. Some people think that the point that Irenicus kept you in a cage and electroshocked you until you fainted, then waited until you woke up, just to proceed with the shocks, etc., ad nauseam, would be enough for a certain dislike.

 

[861129]

As well as the kidnapping your sister/your soul etc bits. Not that the story requires you to actually *hate* him at all, especially if you're interested in the power he (or Bhaal) keeps promising, but there are reasons to act against him or at least to seek him out.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Best villain by Video game standards, would probably be Kreia or Leland (from AP , I know, I have to remind you). They had: Reasonable motives from the point of view of the game and actually acted their part with some sense.

There is nothing wrong with characterless, faceless or emo villains other than them being characterless, faceless and emo.

 

[Grunker]

Best villain [...] Leland

dis thread

 

[PorkaMorka]

Yeah, I guess you guys are right.

My issue is that I saw the entire horrible Bhaalspawn plot as an irritating distraction. I mostly only enjoyed the non Bhaalspawn/non main plot related segments. Subquests/exploring, adventuring, etc... So when I was forced to do that stupid opening dungeon, I was irritated at Bioware, not Irenicus. Similarly, when I didn't get to use Imoen for so long, I blamed the writers, not Irenicus.

BG2 is one of the few games I've played where I really enjoyed the game, but really hated the main plot, so I guess my opinion on Irenicus is probably not typical.

I just saw him as a tool for the developers to move their stupid plot along. Usually when I have no interest in the main plot I stop playing the game, but BG2 had so much non plot related stuff that it was worth continuing to play.

So I guess that is why he stands out as a particularly uninteresting villain, but I guess it is really more about the Bhaalspawn plot than Irenicus himself.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Best villain [...] Leland

dis thread

Radiant Intelligence.

 

[Roguey]

Leland's just a stupid greedy asshole who somehow got a job when he was seven years old (his dossier says he's 39 and joined the company in 1977).

 

[ValeVelKal]

Best vilains in a game were the Ur-Quan - great "motivation" for being evil, a real problem because they can the middle of the map and are pretty tough

Batlin comes close second, and first for a RPG. You know there is something fishy with him, but you cannot just murder him for that, can you ? And when you made sure something is fishy, he is out of reach, just a few "hours" in front of you.

Soviet Russia is the best historical vilain. It has great motivation, beyond unrealistic and manichean "me-want-to-conquer-the-world" like the Mongols or the Nazis have. Really, there is no relevant "morale" choice against them. Moreover, Lenin / Stalin / Trotsky have pretty good design as well (not counting the enemy in-fightings). Brejnev was a letdown as a vilain, though, they should have kept Khroutchev.

 

[BobtheTree]

Yeah, I guess you guys are right.

My issue is that I saw the entire horrible Bhaalspawn plot as an irritating distraction. I mostly only enjoyed the non Bhaalspawn/non main plot related segments. Subquests/exploring, adventuring, etc... So when I was forced to do that stupid opening dungeon, I was irritated at Bioware, not Irenicus. Similarly, when I didn't get to use Imoen for so long, I blamed the writers, not Irenicus.

BG2 is one of the few games I've played where I really enjoyed the game, but really hated the main plot, so I guess my opinion on Irenicus is probably not typical.

I just saw him as a tool for the developers to move their stupid plot along. Usually when I have no interest in the main plot I stop playing the game, but BG2 had so much non plot related stuff that it was worth continuing to play.

So I guess that is why he stands out as a particularly uninteresting villain, but I guess it is really more about the Bhaalspawn plot than Irenicus himself.

Yes. All the sidequests and adventures I stumbled upon were far more interesting and memorable to me than hearing another pseudo-intellectual fallen baddie wax esoteric when I should be fighting him instead. That and the fact your party characters want to talk to you all the damn time. Sure, I don't mind a conversation every now and again, but not when I'm in the middle of crawling through a dungeon or about to sell off my loot.

 

[Azarkon]

Leland was good for what he is.

Kreia and her motivation was totally out of place in a SW world, but is one of those characters that make you think, "and this is why George Lucas sucks" for how inserting any amount of intelligence into SW breaks its simplistic moral paradigm.