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Editorial Gamasutra against Ability Cooldowns

Bulba

Learned
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
518
Oh and for people who are complaining about cooldowns being unrealistic? Let's say that magic is always used from items (or at least the kind of magic with cooldowns is) - you have your fireball ring, lightning bolt ring, frostbolt ring, and so on... You can invoke them at will otherwise but they need to recharge for a moment before being reused. Now you've got a perfectly sensible explanation for cooldowns, as far as plausibility of magic systems go anyway.

Who cares wether it's realistic or not? I would rahter go for tomato point system as long as it would be fun. Using a cooldown system is repetative, boaring and timewasting. I know threre are a lot of simple-minded people who play games and get the feeling of genius when working out that using your superuber abilaty and then running away from mosnters is the best tactic... but what about the rest of us? gona go and bash my head against the wall - this is bound to help!
Looks like the only way to play the new diablo would be while stoned... hope it's legal where you come from. Bliz should rename the game to Stoniablo.
 

Ebola1717

Novice
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
21
What about cooldowns paired with a MOTB-style spirit meter, or hunger system, or other time-based resource?

Also, if your spells are more creative than "do damage" there's tons of situations where you need cooldowns for spells. Even big heals and revives wouldn't really work without some sort of cooldown or resting system. Just look at DOTA style games.
 

Johannes

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Oh and for people who are complaining about cooldowns being unrealistic? Let's say that magic is always used from items (or at least the kind of magic with cooldowns is) - you have your fireball ring, lightning bolt ring, frostbolt ring, and so on... You can invoke them at will otherwise but they need to recharge for a moment before being reused. Now you've got a perfectly sensible explanation for cooldowns, as far as plausibility of magic systems go anyway.

Who cares wether it's realistic or not?
I don't, but a lot of people here seem to care.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Who cares wether it's realistic or not? I would rahter go for tomato point system as long as it would be fun. Using a cooldown system is repetative, boaring and timewasting. I know threre are a lot of simple-minded people who play games and get the feeling of genius when working out that using your superuber abilaty and then running away from mosnters is the best tactic... but what about the rest of us? gona go and bash my head against the wall - this is bound to help!
Looks like the only way to play the new diablo would be while stoned... hope it's legal where you come from. Bliz should rename the game to Stoniablo.

Repetative, boring, and timewasting? Maybe. Overused? Probably. However, it is a decent system to accomplish the goal of making a player diversify his actions. It's a heck of a lot better than the old D&D mechanic of Use a Spell, Lose a Spell. At least this way, I can fireball something, then use something else and then go back to the fireball. Also, it beats the hell out of casting times that older games used. There's a few where you cast something and got to wait on it to go off. Cooldowns are the opposite of that.

Cooldowns are just a really decent way of going about doing things like this for real time games, especially with multiplayer which most games require these days. They're sheer elegance in their simplicity(props to whomever knows where this line comes from).
 

nihil

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There's a few where you cast something and got to wait on it to go off. Cooldowns are the opposite of that.

There are some important differences between "power up" and cooldown that makes to former more fun, in my opinion. For example, looking at something like BG, you can only power up one spell at a time, AND you can chose to abort it. This is not only more intuitive (your mage needs to chant the spell, but can stop doing so), it also has some interesting tactical implications, like that you're telegraphing attempting to do something, and have to protect your mage while he's casting. As mentioned before, cooldowns often lead to "burn off all abilities, then kite around and wait until one is available again".
 

Bulba

Learned
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
518
Wow... the way all of the cooldown lovers put their fingers in ears and scream blablalbbla is...
100+ posts in and all they can come up with has been said in the first few posts. My guess this is some sort of IQ test system where all the retargs defend the retard system.
 

nihil

Augur
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Messages
490
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Sweden
Project: Eternity
however this sea guy is one of the dumbest guys on the planet.

For doing what? Pointing on a specific design flaw of many games and explaining it by example? I think that's a pretty good attempt at changing games for the better, even if it's not the biggest problem that's highlighted.
 

DraQ

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Cooldowns also reduce the value of long-term planning.
So it's better to not have long term planning, just spam the best attack over and over?
You got problems with reading comprehension or what? He addressed those issues in the quote that you posted.
Yeah, he addressed it. In a really retarded manner which I then debunked.

Who's retarded again?
:M
Not really, because player can just wait the exceptionally long cooldown out in between battles.

You might do that for a 3 minute cool down, but what about 5 minutes, 10 minutes, etc?
So what? The problem stays the same - outside of combat cooldowns have no mechanical effect - they merely annoy the player.

In combat cooldowns can only work if they are at most as long as the longest combat and not always even that - if the battle dynamics relies on cooldowns too much it just means that running around like a retard turns into a bizarre equivalent of FPS popamole. Even if they do work, they just work like regenerating mana bar, but with only one spell worth of mana, less timing and no resource management.

Plus, most of the time cooldowns are just moronic and don't make sense.
 

Condiments

Educated
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Nov 10, 2011
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72
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Shoulder of Orion
Criticizing why cooldown timers suck is difficult unless you explain within the context of the entire system they reside in. A pretty recent terrible example of cooldown timers in videogames has to be Dragon Age: Origins. Cooldowns are lazy limitation enforced on the player, and are most likely a result of the decreased need for resource management in modern games. In DA:O, mana consumption was never much of a problem for me due to the fact it would regenerate between combat encounters. Players could make incredibly risky decisions like bombing their own party with AOEs, and spam high mana spells with little long term penalty. The only thing the developers could really do to prevent players from trivializing encounters was imposing cooldowns on the awesum button abilities(cone of cold=I win). While this system should allow for the developers to throw continuously difficult, well designed battles consistently at the player due to the lack of resource management, most opt to take the "traditional approach" of attempting to whittle the player down with a lot of trash mobs. This is contrary to the design, and makes regular encounters an exercise in patience than conservation/strategy.

Hell they could have just gotten rid of the cooldown system and removed the players ability to regenerate health/mana, and it would have been a better game if the right tweaks were made(spell cost, mana/energy pools, etc.). Cooldowns just seem like an un-nessecary addition when there are far more effective means of limiting the player. Another problem I have with these cooldowns is how the values are decided. It would be much harder to balance a game around how much time it takes to complete certain tasks/battles/dungeons versus mana pool/cost relative to dungeon length and difficulty.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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So what? The problem stays the same - outside of combat cooldowns have no mechanical effect - they merely annoy the player.

They can annoy the player, but typically the longer cooldowns are for the more ridiculous powers. In terms of WoW, though, I think the only cooldown that typically ticked me off was the Heartstone. The other ones, I just typically used something else. Of course, I typically don't play classes with a lot of spells either.

In combat cooldowns can only work if they are at most as long as the longest combat and not always even that - if the battle dynamics relies on cooldowns too much it just means that running around like a retard turns into a bizarre equivalent of FPS popamole.

Actually, they work beyond combat as I've mentioned above. If you're in a dungeon, and you're spanking the critters up to the END BOSS of DOOM, you might decide to use a 10 minute cooldown AoE attack to clear the way to that boss only to have it unavailable at the boss. Now, you can argue that you're just going to sit there and wait for that cooldown to attack the boss and that's annoying. Then again, that's not a problem with the mechanic, that's a problem with you or the people you're playing with. The one reason I thought the Leroy Jenkins video was so funny. If you're spreadsheeting that much, you're not really playing the damned game. If you're waiting around for one attack to cooldown as opposed to using another method while it cools down, that's either on you or the game itself is poorly designed. That wouldn't be the fault of the mechanic.

It's just like saying turn based sucks because you can choke point a door and just shoot at the door because everything has to wait to come through that one door, one at a time. I can name several games where the turn based doesn't work well. Even if it does work well over all, there are maps where it doesn't work well. Fallout 2's Enclave location, for example. You can kill the entire Enclave at that location about halfway through the game because of all the door choke points. The combat in most of the game works really well, but that location is easy to exploit just because of the map.

Even if they do work, they just work like regenerating mana bar, but with only one spell worth of mana, less timing and no resource management.

Actually, all timing and the resources you manage are your abilities.

Also, most games that rely on mana also have mana potions or other ways to quickly regain mana. So, you can argue that just forces players to take up inventory slots.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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After seeing some reviews of DA2, I didn't bother. I thought DA was merely "okay" with nothing really driving me to finish it. I think I still have it installed and planned on finishing it for DA2's release. However, seeing videos of DA2's gameplay and watching some video reviews, I passed on it. Even the positive reviews of it made me think it was going to be something I wouldn't like.

I'm just not ready to seal the fate of a mechanic for a few shoddy implementations. I'd rather have real time with cool downs, despite some botched implementations, as opposed to the real time with pause mechanic which I never thought worked well. Then again, I liked Diablo 2 a heck of a lot more than Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.

FUN FACT: So did Roshambo. Him and I used to play Diablo 2 with a few other hardcore CRPG fans for S&Gs.
 

nihil

Augur
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Messages
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Project: Eternity
If positioning doesn't matter, if party mix doesn't matter, if there's no true specialization, there's no tactics. And since WoW doesn't have those it will never have real tactics and combat will always be banal shit boring.

Agreed. But cooldowns is still a boring and cop-out mechanic when used as statically as in WoW or D3.

Then again, I liked Diablo 2 a heck of a lot more than Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.

D2 is a fine ARPG, but it also didn't have cooldowns. Not saying it would've been pure shit with them, but it would've been less fun.
 

made

Arcane
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Dec 18, 2006
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Germany
Cooldowns are an MMO mechanic, where they do their job quite well. Coordinating cooldowns between individual players is a tactical consideration. They don't work nearly as well in SP games that have much better systems at their disposal.

Makes no sense to me to write a long piece about how cooldowns suck and then cite DA2 as an example, it just prompts "well, duh" replies.
 

hello friend

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Feb 26, 2012
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I'm on an actual spaceship. No joke.
D2 is a fine ARPG, but it also didn't have cooldowns. Not saying it would've been pure shit with them, but it would've been less fun.

I realise this is nitpicking, but as I mentioned previously, Diablo 2 DOES have cooldowns.

NextDelay is a property that activates a hidden "hit timer" that limits how often any attack from that group(i.e. all the skills listed here) can damage a single target. This works similarly to the infamous spell timer, which limits how often any spell in that group can be cast. The difference is that the hit timer doesn't prevent you from attacking, it just sets everyone's(includes you, your minions/merc, other players(hostile/neutral/allied), and their minions/mercs) chance-to-hit that monster (with a hit timer attack) at zero until the timer runs out.

Here's a list of skills that are affected by NextDelay, and the lengths of them:

25-Frame Delay (1 second)
Shock Web
Blade Sentinel
Twister
Tornado

10-Frame Delay (0.4 seconds)
Volcano (initial eruption)

6-Frame Delay (0.24 seconds)
War Cry
Grim Ward

5-Frame Delay (0.2 seconds)
Fissure
Volcano (small fireball)

4-Frame Delay (0.16 seconds)
Multi Shot
Strafe
Lightning Strike
Chain Lightning
Nova
Frost Nova
Poison Nova
Shock Wave
Fist of Heavens (Holy Bolts)
Wake of Fire
Claws of Thunder (only 2nd and 3rd charge charges have Next Delay. 1st charge does not trigger Next Delay)
Phoenix Strike (only 2nd Chain Lightning and 3rd Chaos Orb charge have Next Delay. 1st charge does not trigger Next Delay)
Dragon Flight
Battle Cry
Battle Command
Battle Orders

So, the moment a certain skill from the list damages a monster, it prevents every other skill on the list from hitting the said monster for the original skill's NextDelay duration (whether from you or any other character).
 

nihil

Augur
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Messages
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Project: Eternity
D2 is a fine ARPG, but it also didn't have cooldowns. Not saying it would've been pure shit with them, but it would've been less fun.

I realise this is nitpicking, but as I mentioned previously, Diablo 2 DOES have cooldowns.

Interesting. It's still very different from what is generally meant with cooldown, and I think you can see that. In D2:

1) "Cooldown" is tied to the monster being hittable, not the skill being castable.
2) Groups of skills share timers.
3) Delays are in fractions of seconds, not in many seconds or minutes.

In D2, it's a more or less invisible (and pretty complex) mechanic to improve balance/prevent abuse (I assume). You can still use the skills you want in quick succession.

The fact that I didn't even know about it kind of proves the point that it's very different from D3 or WoW.
 

hello friend

Arcane
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I'm on an actual spaceship. No joke.
Some spells have a more typical cooldown. Still, never more than several seconds. But the NextDelay thing is a pretty interesting mechanic, yes. In any event it seems they placed a bit more thought into it than they're doing now.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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But the NextDelay thing is a pretty interesting mechanic, yes. In any event it seems they placed a bit more thought into it than they're doing now.
Yes, it's a nice system, and they could even make it longer using some a animations or energy concentrations as cover-ups. Definetly a great example on how the fault is not on cooldowns, but on lazy developers chosing the easy route and poorly implementing them.
 

nihil

Augur
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Jun 11, 2006
Messages
490
Location
Sweden
Project: Eternity
Yeah. I guess the difference between our opinions is that I have a more narrow definition of "cooldown", including the long durations with visible timer, one timer per spell, etc. Obviously I'm not against animations or delays of all kinds.
 

felipepepe

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Probably they were first implemented as an anti-lag measure, so players with faster connection woundn't be invincible spamming attacks....
 
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That, or for balance. A party quickly raining down all their skills on a monster would require it to have tons of health for battles to last more than a few seconds (and probably huge attack power so they would have a chance of defeating the players before dying), but that would make the game unplayable if you aren't in a party.
 

Johannes

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Have some of the fundamentally anti-cooldown crowd played any DoTA-likes btw, and if you have, your thoughts on cooldowns and them?
 

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