Editorial Gamasutra: DPS and the Decline of Complexity in RPGs

[Slow James]

As Inifintron perfectly placed, is like the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, people only think in DPS-related terms now; they are unable to appreciate situational skills or support abilities is they don't affect DPS. Mages are only for fireballs now, not for teleport, light, detect magic, protection from evil, invisibility, identify, knock or the likes anymore...

Except that I can. And I think you do also?


Edit: and the more you actually need those interesting special abilities, the more people will appreciate them. If teleporting is more of a situational gimmick, and just nuking everything (or shooting them in the eye, or whatever) is the simplest way to go, why would people bother with more complex tactics?

But I think you just proved the point against yourself - instead of improving the teleport (or any other non-combat/non-damage dealing ability) mechanic, games are just stripping them out altogether. The Diablo skill tree (and its derivatives) have become the standard for RPGs now. If you have a skill that doesn't buff, debuff, do AoE or direct damage, then why even have it?

Except that it COMPLETELY negates out other solutions/gameplay elements/ideas. Skills like lockpicking, persuasion, magic outside of combat... games have taken away the option to use these, by and large. Even games like Skyrim or FO:NV that have these skills more often that not don't use them as alternate ways to solve problems, but more just bonuses for having used the skills, in the form of more XP (which you can use to make your character stronger in combat, a complete disconnect from reality) or in the form of loot/money (so you can use/buy better gear, again to help make your character stronger in combat).

A focus on DPS, with its corresponding lack of focus on combat or any other gameplay element, leads to using the same four skills, spamming endlessly until you level up and can access more L33t skill to replace one of the other four you spam, or until the end of the game. There is no sense of strategy in making a character to handle more than just combat, as optimizing your character for the highest DPS and damage in combat is all you will ever need to do in today's RPGs. Developers will never say "you didn't put points in lockpick, or teleport, or polymorph or another skill/spell that doesn't equal combat supremacy, therefore you can't access said content or, God forbid, be able to beat the main questline in a game, unless you grind. Meanwhile, this is exactly what developer's do when they assume players will make the highest DPS build every time they play, instead of trying to create a more balanced and nuanced combat system or gameplay experience.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Good mouning.

And a good mouning to you, hiver.

 

[hiver]

 

[RK47]

Did GW2 influence you to write this article sea?

 

[Excidium]

Probably not, considering how unimportant straight DPS is in GW2.

 

[RK47]

in PVP maybe.
in PVE, no fucking way it's unimportant.
There are some encounter that takes a shit load of time to accomplish with shit DPS classes.
And I think he made a point about sword = dagger = axe = fireball = icebolt damage because it's exactly how it works in GW2.
White damage = Normal = all those.
While the condition damage is 'something else'

 

[Excidium]

Yeah it's important but it's secondary to utility. That's why you see all those guardians and mesmers in dungeons but almost no thieves and warriors that don't have 30 in tactics since they don't bring much other than DPS.

And I think he made a point about sword = dagger = axe = fireball = icebolt damage because it's exactly how it works in GW2.
White damage = Normal = all those.
While the condition damage is 'something else'

White damage is reduced by armor, condition damage isn't.

And the complaint about damage types is kinda stupid, considering the example of damage type usage he gives is D&D where damage type is little more than a gimmick. The two damage types of GW2 have more impact in design and balance than the 4 or so of D&D.

 

[RK47]

Err, how is D&D dmg type a gimmick or stupid?
You face a fire elemental, you equip fire resist, or prepare anti-fire spells ... a mage memorizing fire balls while going into plane of fire is screwed, etc.

It's a good mechanic to differentiate type of dmg imo. Holy spells dealing more damage to demons etc.
At least it forces players to think and make preparation before going into an adventure.

All those guardians and mesmers?
LOL. More like. 1 of each + elementalist and 2 warriors.
There's Arah path 4 that demands DPS.
HotW is shit without good DPS.
Thieves are fucked in dungeon though. There's just not enough team support utility and good survivability with that DPS.

 

[felipepepe]

You face a fire elemental, you equip fire resist, or prepare anti-fire spells ... a mage memorizing fire balls while going into plane of fire is screwed, etc.

Even WoW had that in ye old days, I remenber how it sucked to play as a fire mage, since tons of enemies were simply immune to fire... Nowadays you can kill the Ragnaros, the elemental lord of fire by throwing fireballs at him...

 

[Weierstraß]

It's like the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis of gaming, bros. The terminology we choose to use influences and constrains the ways in which our games are designed.

As much as this might sound like a throwaway joke line it is very much true.

The entire problem is an interesting one. When measure of progress can be unified in a single variable the efficiency of any action, mechanic or decision exists only in a one dimensional space. Of course, MMOs often try to counter this by the introduction of roles, but with healers and tanks in addition to the DPS role you've essentially three separate one dimensional spaces rather than one three-dimensional one, which is no improvement. The best solution in my mind is to have, even in games focused entirely on combat, a goal other than pure destruction of the opposing party, a bomb to plant or something of the sort.

 

[J1M]

Are the lot of you being obtuse because you like the topic and have nothing to add or because you genuinely think the most important thing to discuss for three pages was the exact wording that sea used in his piece?

There is nothing in there that suggests division of damage by time is a "bad mechanic".

It is clearly about the unintended consequences of:
a) Making this information readily available
b) Making this information easy for players to compare
c) The successive homogenization of other mechanics that result from a focus on this information

Now, I'm not one to support the hiding of stats from players, and we've had that debate before. Instead let's discuss how other, non-dps information, could be made more visible to players and increase its importance.

What level of visibility would things like buffing/debuffing, resource generation, and mobility require for something to break into and add a 4th role to the holy trinity of tank/dps/healing? How can that be done?

Does it just take a sophisticated DPS meter that assigns 15% of your damage done to the guy who gave you 15% haste?

Does it require encounters that force you to have a certain class for their special ability?

Would it be better for all characters to have an equal portion of this utility or for extreme specialization? I assume the latter, I like my party games with odd support classes, but perhaps there is an argument to the contrary.

 

[Excidium]

Err, how is D&D dmg type a gimmick or stupid?
You face a fire elemental, you equip fire resist, or prepare anti-fire spells ... a mage memorizing fire balls while going into plane of fire is screwed, etc.

It's a good mechanic to differentiate type of dmg imo. Holy spells dealing more damage to demons etc.
At least it forces players to think and make preparation before going into an adventure.

It just exists to put damage resistance to certain types on things. That's where damage type starts and where it ends in D&D. As long as you're not fighting something with resistance to it, if your weapon deals slashing or piercing damage doesn't matter at all. It's not like other games that have different effects, critical tables, etc.

HotW is shit without good DPS.

Why? HotW is already really fast to clear, specially if you skip pulls and do the path 3 -> 2 shortcut.

Even WoW had that in ye old days, I remenber how it sucked to play as a fire mage, since tons of enemies were simply immune to fire... Nowadays you can kill the Ragnaros, the elemental lord of fire by throwing fireballs at him...

Yeah, that is p. retarded. But it makes sense as they made the gear and classes a lot more specialized.

 

[RK47]

Why? HotW is already really fast to clear, specially if you skip pulls and do the path 3 -> 2 shortcut.

Did 3-2-1 last night.
Let me remind you. Bosses only and the initial trash to clear.
Nothing in between.

10 mins each. Just hitting the same meatbag over n over.
It's a shit instance that's begging for maximum DPS, cause the fight mechanic is simply nonexistent.
The Zealot throws explosive jelly fish that ppl just dodges and continues dpsing over n over.
Wollan the Plunderer is a bitch since he throws hard hitting melee that makes aqua melee nigh impossible. We simply used our wimpy ranged weapons and went all out dps utility slots. There's nothing else you need in this fight.
And the last dude with totems? It wasn't designed for melee and that's where the game just went full retard. I melee the totem of protection and just scepter him to death, casting the occasional heal when needed.

 

[felipepepe]

What level of visibility would things like buffing/debuffing, resource generation, and mobility require for something to break into and add a 4th role to the holy trinity of tank/dps/healing? How can that be done?

A proper support role would be the fit for the 4th one... imagine a time mage, with no damage spells, but that can keep doing channeling rituals to slow down enemies, haste friends, teleport the group, spread invisibility, detonate enemy bombs and other stuff.

However, in the end is what Weierstraß, battles need extra objetives to make other resources important. If all you have to do is kill a foe by dealing damage, obviously that dealing moar damage is always better. Problem is, is hard to add non-combat stuff in a MMO without limiting players acess. I.e., it's impossible to kill the Lich King if you don't have a priest to dispeal the diseases he casts. May sound like an improvement, but it actually only means that you MUST have a priest to do this fight, he will cast a spell 2-3 times thought the 10-minute long fight, and that's it.

If instead, let's say, there were ice pillars that melee guys could break, trap switches that mages could teleport to and dead corpses that priests could ressurect or druids decompose to avoid being raised as skeletons, you would have a dynamic fight where ever class would have a role and each raid configuration would result in a different battle. That would be something glorious to see, but that would also be harder to program & balance than a entire DPS-race instance, so we get only the dumb, cheap way...

 

[Excidium]

Did 3-2-1 last night.
Let me remind you. Bosses only and the initial trash to clear.
Nothing in between.

10 mins each. Just hitting the same meatbag over n over.
It's a shit instance that's begging for maximum DPS, cause the fight mechanic is simply nonexistent.
The Zealot throws explosive jelly fish that ppl just dodges and continues dpsing over n over.
Wollan the Plunderer is a bitch since he throws hard hitting melee that makes aqua melee nigh impossible. We simply used our wimpy ranged weapons and went all out dps utility slots. There's nothing else you need in this fight.
And the last dude with totems? It wasn't designed for melee and that's where the game just went full retard. I melee the totem of protection and just scepter him to death, casting the occasional heal when needed.

Yeah, I see what you mean. More DPS certainly makes it less of a bore with all the tank spank boss fights.

If instead, let's say, there were ice pillars that melee guys could break, trap switches that mages could teleport to and dead corpses that priests could ressurect or druids decompose to avoid being raised as skeletons, you would have a dynamic fight where ever class would have a role and each raid configuration would result in a different battle. That would be something glorious to see, but that would also be harder to program & balance than a entire DPS-race instance, so we get only the dumb, cheap way...

That's like Burning Crusade encounter design vs Cataclysm encounter design.

 

[J1M]

What level of visibility would things like buffing/debuffing, resource generation, and mobility require for something to break into and add a 4th role to the holy trinity of tank/dps/healing? How can that be done?

A proper support role would be the fit for the 4th one... imagine a time mage, with no damage spells, but that can keep doing channeling rituals to slow down enemies, haste friends, teleport the group, spread invisibility, detonate enemy bombs and other stuff.

I agree. But would you stop at 4 roles? How do you generalize the job so that more than one class can do it?

 

[Excidium]

Class roles is bad RPG design to begin with.

 

[J1M]

Class roles is bad RPG design to begin with.

No, it is how the market naturally organizes itself.

When you want to build a house you don't hire 6 random construction workers. You hire a plumber, an electrician, a carpenter, a drywaller, a painter, and a mexican.

 

[Mangoose]

Classes are roles.

 

[Excidium]

No, it is how the market naturally organizes itself.

When you want to build a house you don't hire 6 random construction workers. You hire a plumber, an electrician, a carpenter, a drywaller, a painter, and a mexican.

Yeah, I mean strict roles. Like the cancerous trinity.

 

[J1M]

Classes are roles.

Role is what you do. Classy is how you do it.

 

[Shannow]

Wow, this thread is full of decline. Several codexers (some of which I thought were not retarded) cannot grasp the concept that a system with several types of damage, resistances and armor cannot be depicted in "DPS". Only decline games where dmg is dmg and armor is armor can even be sensibly depicted in dps.

 

[felipepepe]

I agree. But would you stop at 4 roles? How do you generalize the job so that more than one class can do it?

It's a tough thing, especially in banal shit boring MMOs. Imagine a PnP dungeon where you have to run through it, oppening locked doors, passing through traps and beating monsters.

A thief would pick the lock, disarm the trap and backstab/sneak past the fights.
A mage would "knock" the door, teleport/phase through the trap and fireblast/invisibility through the fights.
A warrior would break the fucking door, endure the trap and beat the shit out of the enemies.
(countless other classes/solutions omited for sanity's sake)

If they were together, any combination of that becames possible, players are free to choose the best/easier/cooler combination.

However, MMOs don't offer all that variety of challenges, only fights, and worse, unskippable ones. So your whole dungeon run becames limited to backstab/fireball/beat down enemies. And since that's the only challenge you'll face, everyone will have to contribute to the fight, and equally, otherwise it would be unbalanced and some classes would be useless. IMHO, the best way to remove the heretic trinity and kill DPS worshiping is to add non-damage challenges to dungeons and/or boss fights, that would still be solveable by all classes, but in different ways. If you abolutly must fight dwarves coming from a gate, make so the mage can blast the doorway to block reinforcements, or the thief can lock the gate, while the warrior will simply crush them all.

As I said before, that would make each playthough different according to the classes & choices you make, while exploring gameplay mechanics beyond DPS.

 

[Excidium]

Thing is, the players don't want that.

 

[J1M]

And it still doesn't give the support classes anything to do in combat.