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Review GameOver talks about KOTOR

Vault Dweller

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Tags: Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

<a href=http://www.game-over.net>Game Over</a> posted a detailed <a href=http://www.game-over.net/reviews.php?id=894>review</a> of <a href=http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic>KOTOR</a> giving it <b>93%</b> which is according to the review is the highest rating they gave in 3 years.
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<blockquote>First and foremost, the balance is a little off in the game. KOTOR is a little easy to play, even on the highest difficulty setting. There are all sorts of things like stimpacks and shields and grenades, all of which should be useful, but which aren’t often needed. Bosses can be difficult to kill, but most other conflicts are a walk in the park, and all too often somebody decides to attack you or ambush you when they are hopelessly outclassed. In fact, there’s a bounty hunter that the game takes a lot of time to build up, and then when you finally face him it’s no contest at all. Part of the problem is that lightsabers are way too powerful -- they’re powerful to start with and then you can upgrade them -- but mostly enemies are just too easy to kill. There is also an issue with skills. They help characters so little there isn’t any reason to pursue them, making it straightforward to create powerful characters (among other things, you can take points away from intelligence and put them elsewhere).</blockquote>
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Combat is indeed one of KOTOR's many weak spots but the reviewer still thinks that KOTOR is "easily the best game of the year, and it’s the best role-playing game since Baldur’s Gate II in 2000". Some people are easily amused.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.gengamers.com">GenGamers</A>
 

triCritical

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I don't understand this logic at all. Needless to say that one of the most ubiquitous elements in all modern CPRG's with the exception of probably Fallout and PS:T is combat. How a game can be weak in a category that dominates the gameplay and still be a teh w1n is beyond me.

A CRPG with weak combat is like a strategy game with weak strategy.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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KotOR does fairly well in other areas, but yes, combat is a major area which should bring down the score - and there's a lot of it.
 

Vault Dweller

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What areas? Character development? Nope. Freedom of choice? Nope. We've already covered combat, so nope again. Actual role-playing? They have lotsa dark=jerk situations, the fact that they failed to provide proper choices after you realized who you are is unforgivable as the lack of Sith's options, they have some good and interesting situations, but the ratio is about 1:5. Then we have everyone carrying a sword which is fucked up, ranged weapons are nerfed, etc. So, overall, I'm having a hard time to figure out what exactly KOTOR does well? Care to help me, Saint?
 

Volourn

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NO freedom of choice? NO character development? Someone obviously didn't play the game.
 

triCritical

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Well IMO there is not any real freedom of choice. Just what the engine allows you to do. Some engine's and game design let you do more then others. KotOR offers very little freedom of choice with the obvious exceptions being hub-based linearity and dark and light. Much less choice then most other games allow.

Some examples would be dealing with bad guys when Bio wants you to deal them, because of them needing script the whole damn novel as you play. You can't do things your way, you do it Bio's way. What happens if you kill Calo Nord in the Cantina? You can't even initiate combat with anyone, no matter how much trash they talk. They instead initiate it with you. Talk about lack of freedom.

As for character development. There is indeed character development but the wrong kind. All the character development is your so called party members. The worst part is how the majority of them just sit in the Ebon Hawk twiddling their thumbs all day long.

KotOR did not a lot of stuff right like story, which I had little to no interest in, graphics, a lot of dialogue and lip sync'ing, but hub linearity and dark, or light do not equate to freedom of choice. Not to mention that when you actually make a choice it rarely matters.
 

Vault Dweller

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Exitium said:
Ummmmmmmm

What do you mean there's no character development?
There is? I must have missed because of the interface thing :) Seriously speaking, char development is pathetic and poor You have 3 classes to pick from now, and 3 later, being forced to multiclass. The skills and feats selection is minimal, comparing to IWD2 and ToEE, basically forcing you to take 1 or 2 development paths. Considering that ranged weapons are nerfed, melee is the only choice. Persuade, the only diplomatic skill, is being replaced later by Force Persuade, granted it doesn't work always, unlike high Persuade but it works often enough (90%) to erase the difference between a diplomatic char and a brute fighter.You don't get more converstaions if you're a Consular with high presuade, so the only difference is how do you kill'em. Considering that a lot of encounters could be resolved only through combat, KOTOR doesn't offer enough combat options to make it deep and interesting

There is no char development interaction-wise because there is no interaction, you can't talk to NPCs until you;re ready to hear another portion of their stories, and even then your answers rarely matter and change nothing unlike PST.

Volourn said:
NO freedom of choice? NO character development? Someone obviously didn't play the game
Freedom of choice? What choice? The obvious choice for a dark guy is to join the Siths. The obvious choice for Darth Revan is NOT to take all the silly tests in the Academy and make an example out of everybody who disagrees. Freedom to choose one outcome out of two, the order of planets, and the colour of your lightsaber is not really a freedom but an illusion of it. Freedom is a freedom to chose how I'm going to handle that quest. Can I kill the duel champion outside of the arena? No. Can I kill both gangs and save Bastila that way? No. Can I save Bastila any other way but the scripted event? No. Can I buy, steal, or talk the shopkeeper into selling me the droid before Canderous tells me about it? No. Can I use my uber security skills and open the door myself giving me a unique gameplay experience for being a scoundrel? No. Can I talk to Canderous before he decides to talk to me? No. And so on, no, no, no, so what freedom of choice are we talking about here?
 

chrisbeddoes

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Vault Dweller said:
so what freedom of choice are we talking about here?

You can always exercise your freedom of choice.

I have exercised mine by deciding not to buy this game.
 

Vault Dweller

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So, what happened with all those "OMG! He obviously didn't play the game that's loaded with choices and character development"? No more one-liners?
 

Volourn

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Because, like we said, it's obvious you haven't actually played the game when you think it has NONE of those things. That's so much hyperbole; it makes the balony smell bad.
 

Jed

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VD is on the money. That said, it's still a fun game, just not a good CRPG. I liked throwing my lightsaber at people. Second place to Anachronox, which is the game I think it is most similar too.

Incidentally, Volourn, one of your chief complaints about ToEE was that the combat was too easy. I have to say that I think the combat in KotOR is the easiest combat in any C"R"PG; I only reloaded a couple of battles, once because of one of the several CTDs. How did your experience compare?
 

Vault Dweller

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Volourn said:
Because, like we said, it's obvious you haven't actually played the game when you think it has NONE of those things. That's so much hyperbole; it makes the balony smell bad.
well, do me a favour and back it up with some arguments so I can clearly see where I was wrong and learn from my mistakes in the future.
 

triCritical

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The more you know about DnD, the easier ToEE combat is. As for combat in a KotOR, their is only one battle that is mediocerly difficult. But how about your companions raising from the dead every time they die, that feels natural. KotOR would be so much better if it played like Leisure Suit Larry.
 

Volourn

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X, you must of missed it when I complained about KOTOR's combat bein too easy, and yes it definitely is easier than TOEE's. I don't know what exactly your point is here except to say we agree on this part of it.

VD, please. You say there is NO choice to be made. That is absolutely false. All has to do is look at the two endings which are a result of the PLAYER'S choice. I don't even have to go in depth; that alone makes your statement flat out wrong. And, that isn't even a matter of opinion; but of fact.

Tri, they aren't technically dead; but unconcious. Still, either way, I find that pretty dead. The party only dies if all party members fall unconcious.
 

Jed

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Volourn said:
X, you must of missed it when I complained about KOTOR's combat bein too easy, and yes it definitely is easier than TOEE's. I don't know what exactly your point is here except to say we agree on this part of it.
Yeah, I guess I did. My point was to discuss RPGs with you. My new year's resolution is to be more civil to you, V.
VD, please. You say there is NO choice to be made. That is absolutely false. All has to do is look at the two endings which are a result of the PLAYER'S choice. I don't even have to go in depth; that alone makes your statement flat out wrong. And, that isn't even a matter of opinion; but of fact.
You do have to admit that there is only one real choice, and it's a cheesey deusexed choice: At the Temple confrontation with Bastila, you can choose--regardless of every "choice" made between good and evil thus far in the game--to become "light" or "dark." Your alignment will change up to fifty percent based on that choice alone. That in itself renders all other choices up to that point utterly moot.
Tri, they aren't technically dead; but unconcious. Still, either way, I find that pretty dead. The party only dies if all party members fall unconcious.
Lightsabers and blasters that do subdual damage?
 

Volourn

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Ahh... I'll make sure to troll ya enough for you to break that silly Resolution. :wink:

Well.. It's the manin chocie that effects the ending; but it isn't the only choice. Most of the quests most certainly have different ways to complete them; and do effect how others react to you so they may not be as far reaching as that one; but choices most certainly do exist in the game which runs contrary to VD's point that there are *no* choices at all. I do agree, however, that that particualr chocie is deux es machina style that overruns all other choices on the light/dark axis is a poor decision on BIO's choice. In that regard; i think they should have done at least for endings - one where you are light all the way, dark all the way, one where you are redeemed 9dark to light), and one where you fall (light to dark). That would have amde things at the ending to be far more interesting.

I presume it's more on the lines they did enough serious damage to knock out and you are dying and your companions can't heal you until after the battle as it takes time to fix ya up in that sitautions. Think of it asas "death's next door" ala negative hit points in D&d. Surely, not the way I'd have done it; but oh well. *shrugs*
 

Jed

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Volourn said:
I presume it's more on the lines they did enough serious damage to knock out and you are dying and your companions can't heal you until after the battle as it takes time to fix ya up in that sitautions. Think of it asas "death's next door" ala negative hit points in D&d. Surely, not the way I'd have done it; but oh well. *shrugs*
Yeah, I know. It's just funny to see how they have to nerf dying/death in a setting that doesn't support high-magic style resurrections an full-heals.

Speaking of which, I'd like to see a game that balances magic-using characters by treating magic as a class issue, i.e. only the very lucky and/or wealthy possess easy access to it, thus the poor masses are always following around asking to be healed of disease and injury, criminals would constantly be trying/succeeding in stealing magic items, etc. Make magic powerful (it should be), but make it a burden as well. Kind of like how using the canisters in Geneforge (and especially GF2) had roleplaying consequences (NPC reaction, effect on ending slides, and the loss of diplomatic options for resolving confrontations).
 

Vault Dweller

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Volourn said:
VD, please. You say there is NO choice to be made. That is absolutely false.
Of course, it's false, I meant to say that choices suck. I felt that we know each other long enough to know that no long disclaimers are necessary. My original post was in reply to SP who said that "KOTOR does faily well in other (then combat) areas", I replied with "Char development? No,... etc" "No" meant that KOTOR doesn't do well in those areas, not there are no such areas at all. Read it again. In my reply to you I criticized choosing one out of two in KOTOR, so that surely implies that technically there are choices. So that's what I meant by disclaimer, I wrote a paragraph explaining what I meant and what I didn't. Next time give me some credit and save me some time :)

All has to do is look at the two endings which are a result of the PLAYER'S choice.
So what? Deus Ex had 3 (three :!: ) endings! Bow to the powah of DE's role-playing!!! :lol:

Ok, now that we are (hopefully) clear on my position, do you want to have a nice discussion about it?
 

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