Preview GameSpy gawks at Hordes of Underdark

[Crazy Tuvok]

Do you know the full prophecy? I sure don't. Perhaps, the drow doesn't want you dead yet. Perhaps she wants you for some lame ritual; but needs you alive; but needs to test your worth which is why she sent the "assassins'? Perhaps, she wants you not to have your stuff because it'll make you motivated to hunt for them which would lead you to her... There's a whole possible number of plausible reasons for the drow's motivation. The only problem with the plot is that it's BIo's plot which makes it free game to be attacked; not the plot itself. It's kinda ironic that you say that the plot is not well thought out when you are basing your not so ell thought out disagreement with it over a poorly written not well thought out preview by Gamespy/Gamespot.

I agree the mod is NOT the most original sounding. It's not even the best; but if people actually thought a 15-20 hour expansion would have a %* story; and espicially the intro; they are sadly mistaken. Quick frankly, I expect an okay story; not some legendary epic. Once again, BIo is being overrated by the masses who expect something that just won't exist.

Good point about the prophecy there are plenty of ways to make this beginning plausible.

But yeah I do expect my expansion of 15-20 hrs to do more than have a passble story with a *plausible* explanation and another prophecy/invasion...

Saying it is an expansion and therefore not accountable to the standards of a full game is bullshit. Look, e.g., at the expansions to Ghost Recon - they *improved* on the original, they did not just cash in on it.

 

[Seven]

I never said they were fully turn base. I said at their essence they have a turn base combat sytem run in RT.

As for SOU, youa re wrong. Characters do make a difference. Last I checked, your teacher made a difference. The one who saved you from your stoning made a difference. In Arcanu, the PC is THE one who made the main difference one wya, or the other. You can't really dispute that as that's pretty much accurate for ALL crpgs.

Your exact words were "it's TURNED BASED, trust me", and in that psot there were no qualifiers. So go roll your eyes at some one else.

As for you second statement, well you just rehashed what I said, except you spun it in favor of SOU while avoiding the fact that the protagonist in the game is the ONLY one who can make a difference thus marginalizing other characters in the game world. BTW, because you just rehashed what I said while avoiding the crux of the argument your statement actually supports my argument. THNX.

 

[Volourn]

Tuvok, I ahven't played that game so i wouldn't know. Aand, I didn't mean because it's expansion is it's exuse to suck. However, you can't expect an expansion to be at the same level as a full game. The satndards should still be there; but the story will be compressed thana fully game. Every expansion I have played, or for that matter any game that can be completed in about 20 hours is never as fully detailed as a game that is longer. At leats in most cases.

Seven9, I ahve never called the IE games TB esxcpet when being sarcastic. Just look at my many debates on this particular baord. It's pesudo turn base, or paus en play. Take your pick.

Actually, the key here is YOU rehased what I said; but spun it not in favour of SOU. Not to mention, the PC needs help to be successful. He (or she) doesn't do it all alone; therefore you lose. Or did you forget youa ctually lost your first encounter with the mian villainess? Oopps... I guess so...

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

[Your exact words were "it's TURNED BASED, trust me", and in that psot there were no qualifiers. So go roll your eyes at some one else.

As for you second statement, well you just rehashed what I said, except you spun it in favor of SOU while avoiding the fact that the protagonist in the game is the ONLY one who can make a difference thus marginalizing other characters in the game world. BTW, because you just rehashed what I said while avoiding the crux of the argument your statement actually supports my argument. THNX.

oh man do not get Volourn started on why he thinks NWN is a kind of turn based.

That said, most CRPGs in some way or the other involve the PC as the only one who can do x. It might be a tired game cliche but it is hardly unique to BIO.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

[quote="Volourn" However, you can't expect an expansion to be at the same level as a full game. The satndards should still be there; but the story will be compressed thana fully game. [/quote]

The only thing I forgive in an expansion is that it is not as long as the original; beyond that I expect improvement in more than just new tile sets, weapons or spells. And if it is a story-driven RPG I expect something new in terms of story.
HOTU as far as what has been announced is no more than new tilesets, weps and spells with a hackneyed story that has not only been done to death by others but by them.

Another question: so I can import my SoU char (if I had bought the game and actually had one) or I can create ...what? a lvl 12 starting char? Not being sarcastic just curious.

 

[Spazmo]

Not really. Fallout cast you as nothing more than the person who drew the short straw. In Arcanum, you are simply a lucky guy who survives a horrific crash unharmed (I myself actually really, really enjoyed the plot twist where you're not really some hot shit reincarnated god--that was utter goodness). In Fallout 2, you're sent out into the world for no other reason than because you're the son of the Elder, despite the "Chosen One" rhetoric. The parties in the Icewind Dale games are simply groups of adventurers who are adventuring. Stuff like prophecies or reincarnations or what have you are just crutches for lazy writers who can't be bothered to think of something less cliche.

Tuvok, most likely if you haven't got a character of appropriate level, you'll just make one and be given an appropriate set of items to have stolen. Just like BG2 and it's expansion.

This brings me to another thing: beyond simply not understanding good RPG design, BioWare doesn't even get D&D. By taking all your items away at the beginning of the game, they're neutering your character's ability to whoop ass. In D&D, much of a character's power depends on his items--this is true of fighter type classes and, to a lesser but still significant extent, spellcasters, especially divine ones. A twelth level character with no items or items appropriate to a first level character is not capable of facing EL 12 encounters.

Now, knowing BioWare, they'll just dump a kajillion items on you right from the start, and we all know how wrong that is (except Volourn, for some strange reason).

 

[Seven]

Actually, the key here is YOU rehased what I said; but spun it not in favour of SOU. Not to mention, the PC needs help to be successful. He (or she) doesn't do it all alone; therefore you lose. Or did you forget youa ctually lost your first encounter with the mian villainess? Oopps... I guess so...

There's no correlation with what you just said and what you've previously posted.
Here you compare Arcanum to SOU:

You were still the Chosen One in essence. The story was about your great deeds. It involved you. You were it, and only it. Everyone else was secondary. You were just as much the "Chosen One" in Arcanum as you were in NWN OC, and SOU.

What did I get out of this: other characters are secondary. Yes, exactly what I'VE BEEN SAYING, execpt in SOU this is being taken to an extreme.

As for SOU, youa re wrong. Characters do make a difference.

How do you know this? Aside from that it kind of contradicts your previous statement. Are you jumping back and forth on stances just to confuse me? :shock:

Volourn is right. You're not a "great one" or prophecized or anything in NWN or SOU. IN NWN and SOU, you have no past and are just a monster-killin', loot-collectin' puppet with no character or story anyways.

You agreed with this statement, so if it's true explain to me how NPC's can make a difference other than combat buddies?

Enough of this. YOU rehashed me by paraphasing:
I wrote: [/quote]No there's a difference. In SOU *you* are the one. There are no others, do noy pass go, do not collect $200.00, etc... Of course (playimg devil's advocate here) the story in Arcanum was about your great deeds, but which RPG doesn't have this. The thing about SOU (and other Bio games) is that your character is given supreme focus (ie. the world and other characters who inhabit it are in essense marginalized by your character because they cannot make a difference and do they not matter as result). BTW, have you come with a way to prove that infinity engine games are TB yet?
THEN you wrote: I never said they were fully turn base. I said at their essence they have a turn base combat sytem run in RT.

As for SOU, youa re wrong. Characters do make a difference. Last I checked, your teacher made a difference. The one who saved you from your stoning made a difference. In Arcanu, the PC is THE one who made the main difference one wya, or the other. You can't really dispute that as that's pretty much accurate for ALL crpgs.

You see, if I wrote it before you then it means that you rehashed what I said. Except you said "As for SOU, youa re wrong" without any support; it's just an unsybstaniated statement as it is. and then your last statement is says what I said. So who rehashed who?

Edit: got rid of the quote boxes, way to complimacated.

 

[Seven]

Not really. Fallout cast you as nothing more than the person who drew the short straw. In Arcanum, you are simply a lucky guy who survives a horrific crash unharmed (I myself actually really, really enjoyed the plot twist where you're not really some hot shit reincarnated god--that was utter goodness). In Fallout 2, you're sent out into the world for no other reason than because you're the son of the Elder, despite the "Chosen One" rhetoric. The parties in the Icewind Dale games are simply groups of adventurers who are adventuring. Stuff like prophecies or reincarnations or what have you are just crutches for lazy writers who can't be bothered to think of something less cliche..

That's my think too. In BIO games YOU are the one. They go and tell you this. Like in FO 2 when they explicitly call you the chosen one. BIO games are the same thing. Bhaal child/god child ring a bell. SOU does the same thing.

 

[Voss]

I actually expect a better story from an expansion than from the original game. After all, the engine is already built. Tweaks can be done, but there is much more room in the development cycle for story than there is when building an entire engine from scratch.

And frankly it isn't a matter of Bio-bashing. Its just a lame-ass intro. I'd complain about anyone pulling this kind of shit.

 

[Volourn]

WOO HOO! Fun time! :shock:

Tuvok: It's adding more than that. Just check out the boards. Here are some fo things that they are adding - upgraded graphics (big whoop to me though as I don't mind the graphics), multiple henchmen (most people including myself whined about there only being one), interparty banter ala the IE games sans IWD series 9a good thing for those who like it), a better resting system (much like SOU where you can only rest in certain areas + now it seems in HOTU there'll be a chance to have your sleep interrupted by encounters), supposedly an evil type option that BIO hasn't done in a previous game (whatever that means), more descriptive writing of characters ala PST (we shall see), and on, and on.

As for the story itself, I agree, it's not original. Then again, I have never EVER played agame that had an original story; and only a small handful that I wouldn't call hackneyed. I just think it's a tad early to judge the quality of HOTU's story either way. It may suck; it may not. Heck, I wans't horribly impressed with SOu's story (though I liked other aspects of it), and was told off by certain people because of it.

As for your character levelm I presume it would just raise your PC to the required level. BIo has stated they have done some things with the character generation scheme. No exact details released. We shall see..

Spamzo: Huh? In FO1; youa re pretty much the only one who can find the water. Talk about lame. In FO2, you are literally the chosen one. IWD aren't full fledge rpi games. They are dungeon crawls. the story is literally secondary. I admit Arcanum is better; but still the world is basically about you.

Your character isn't going to be neutered. I seriously doubt your character will be at some great disadvantage. Don't be silly. Perhaps, those 12th level characters are not all powerful so even 'accidents" can befall them.

Ahh.. Wrong again. Just because I like BIO's games; doesn't mean Ia gree with all theird ecisions. I hit them hard for the LAaeness of ch2 SOU. Then againb, I'm sure you are one of those who reads all my positive statements about BIo's games; but conviently ignore ALL my criticisms of them. I hate phat lewt in any game which is find it funny people bash BIO over it as every single crpg I ahve ever played has too much loot. Period. Yyou should be thankful you don't have me as a dm in pnp (if you even play) as I am very stringent on equipment. Often called "bastard" for it. :shock:

Seven9y job is to confuse everyone - including me. :D

Anyways, what are you getting at? I explained the fact that your character in SOu isn't the only important person. You could not have been successful in your mission if it wasn't for your teacher who sacrificed himself, or the asabi merchant who SAVED you from being a stone statue for all etenrity. Yeah, how greta your PC is when he's a permenant statue.

Once again, I never said IE games were full fledge turn base, or that matter full fledge real time. Do the math. Just do a search on these very boards to find tons of my posts explaining my believes on that subject (right, or wrong they are there).

Voss: I'm not going to say the story is good, or bad as I don't know one way or the other. To me, it's too early to know for sure. However, I do know you shouldn't jduge a plot based on GS/GS's lame preview which was already torn to shreds by the one who is writing said story for being wholely inaccurate. It was WOTC who sent the clip to those sites; not BIO. If you want further details; just go to BIO's HOTU forum; and do a search on posts by Dave Gaider. That would explain things much better than I ever could sicne I don't know naything other than what is public knowledge.

Enjoy, and have fun everyone. 8)


edit: Also, here is a quote from David Gaider:
Hmmm... at the moment, some of your gear gets stolen, but not all of it as you wake up and interrupt the theft.

We're still playing with how this works in the module, however, so that may yet change... both in what's taken and how you get it back.

See, BIo isn't even 100% sure how this going to be implemented in the game so I don't know how one can say one way or the other if they ahve done the right or wrong thing.


Hmmm..

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You know, just once, just once, I want to see a villain look at this whole prophecy thing, with generic Chosen One hero, and stop and think. 'Maybe, if I pay attention to stories and legends, and ALL the other villains that have attacked a supposed Chosen One because of prophecy, there could be another solution. Like leaving the heroic smuck alone in the first place, never getting him involved in an epic quest that will ultimately lead to my defeat. So screw prophecy.'

Yup, this is basically the Moses Problem. A bad guy is given a prophecy, and in order to stop it, they target either the person or the group and end up causing the prophecy to come true. However, even the Bible, which is millenia old, made this more interesting because Ramses was never told which child, so he started killing all first born males. This caused Moses' mother to put him in the river, and Ramses' wife to find the baby and pretend it was hers, making Moses the first born of Pharoah and rising to power that way.

Coming right out and saying, Okay, evil type person, the only person in existance that can oppose you is Bob P. Quiverbolt who lives in South Bentsword, has red hair, is 5'2" tall, an elf, enjoys sunset walks on the beach, etc. is even a shallow simplification of this Moses Problem. It lacks the generic nature where it could have been any of the first born males, it's just Moses' mom thought of the river thing first.

Even Arcanum did it better. The Living One prophecy is so generic, and the twist is that the prophecy was false the whole time but was exploited by the evil guy to distract people from his actual plans.

 

[Section8]

What irritates me is that such a lame intro paves the way for this sort of shit:

Assassin: Hey, you're the ward of Gorion, right?

My Bard with 18 Charisma: What? Who?

Assassin: Don't play dumb, I know you are.

Me: How can you be so sure? I have no particular identifying marks.

Assassin: Don't ask how I know, you just are! I'm going to offer up a feeble attempt to kill you now.

Me: <watching as idiot fumbles with his dagger> Who the fuck would hire you as an assassin anyway? You're completely inept! I'm a bard, and we're absolutely fucking useless in this game, and you can't fucking touch me. And shouldn't assassins be hiding and backstabbing anyway? If you're so sure it was me, why bother striking up a conversation with me? Just slit my throat while I'm sleeping or something, it's not that fucking hard. Are you done yet?

If the uber villain knows exactly who and where you are, you're fucked. Being an uber villain usually dictates you have uber henchmen, or at the very least the influence to hire some. Giving would-be assassins a single hit die is so very broken. It's like that typical anime bullshit of "AAHAAHAHAHA! I could easily you like swat fly, but wait for you growing strong for happy fight!! eeeeeeeee." Now I can understand that to some degree in a society where a fair fight is more honourable, but I don't think that's applicable with Drow.

 

[DrattedTin]

Once again, BIo is being overrated by the masses who expect something that just won't exist.

Completely erroneous.

Even if you think Arcanum has a cliched story (which I can't really understand), there's plenty of games with twisted, original plots. The funny thing is most so-called RPGs are more heavy on the stats than the stories. If you want some really intricate story-lines, look into the Legacy of Kain series sometime.

 

[chiefnewo]

supposedly an evil type option that BIO hasn't done in a previous game (whatever that means)

Asking for cash in advance instead of asking for more money after doing the quest?

 

[Araanor]

I liked how Arcanum did it. Pay attention to the names of the victims - they were all from the pre-made characters. Really gave me the impression that I was the lucky bastard of a survivor and got handed that ring by chance.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

If the uber villain knows exactly who and where you are, you're fucked. Being an uber villain usually dictates you have uber henchmen, or at the very least the influence to hire some. Giving would-be assassins a single hit die is so very broken. It's like that typical anime bullshit of "AAHAAHAHAHA! I could easily you like swat fly, but wait for you growing strong for happy fight!! eeeeeeeee." Now I can understand that to some degree in a society where a fair fight is more honourable, but I don't think that's applicable with Drow.

How about where the assasins get progressvely tougher as your characters do? Granted that in BG their was a bounty put out to any and all, but how come the least competent killers/bounty hunters find me before the really good ones?

 

[Section8]

I can dig having some poxy little assassins in the early stages of the game from a gameplay perspective, but as you said, why the hell should they find you before the competent ones?

I think that's why, in my opinion, decent RPGs are few and far between, because anything thrown in for gameplay purposes rather than game world purposes just doesn't fly.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

I can dig having some poxy little assassins in the early stages of the game from a gameplay perspective, but as you said, why the hell should they find you before the competent ones?

I think that's why, in my opinion, decent RPGs are few and far between, because anything thrown in for gameplay purposes rather than game world purposes just doesn't fly.

Exactly. Of course from a gameplay perspective it makes sense - but that is precisely where the sense ends.
I too loathe these kinds of mechanics. Like at Candlekeep - how did this pissant assasin even get in to the Keep, and if he can why not some much more qualified killer? Naturally you cannot have your lvl 1 char fighting some lvl 8 killer but putting in a lvl1 killer at this point completely destroys immersion as it defies common sense.
It wouldn't be that difficult to avoid these pitfalls if the designers put any goddamned thought into it.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well, I think that the reason they find you before the competent ones do is because the initial bounty on your head is around the figure of 200 GP (read the scrolls you pick up from their bodies), a paltry some which none of the competent or skillful assassins and bounty hunters would even bother to look at.

As you progress through the game, the bounty hunters become progressively tougher and the scrolls on their bodies reveal increased amounts of bounty value.

Towards the end, you meet up with a couple of skilled assassins in the Brothel area of underground Baldur's Gate who are laying in wait for you. The dialogue they offer up explains that they studied your decisions and knew where you would go, so instead of seeking you out, they waited for you instead. One of them has a +2 Longtooth dagger and the battle is pretty tough.

Although I agree with you guys on the whole "1-hit die assassin" issue at the start of the game, I do think that Baldur's Gate posed a challenge every now and then and it only makes sense that the weakest and poorest bounty hunters would hunt you down for that 200 Gold reward early on.

The battles that you encounter with some of these guys are by no means easy - as experienced by the group of female bounty hunters equipped with poison weapons in the area after the Nashkel mines, or the the guy waiting for you at the friendly arms inn, whose initial Magic Missile is enough to take down 3/4ths of your health -- with that said, it's not as if you're a hundred percent expected to win these fights.

Think of it this way: If you lose the fight and die, Sarevok wins and assumes the Throne of Bhaal, as opposed to you.

What's nice about this is that Bioware did actually follow up on this line of thought, during the dream sequences in Baldur's Gate 2, Sarevok mentions how he would be in a similar situation to yours, with Tomoko by his side, if you had died and he had won.

In Throne of Bhaal, you have to undergo a series of trials in your Plane area (the place with that annoying imp), and at one point the ghost of Gorion (or was it the female bad guy?) tells you how your mother was a cultist of Bhaal and had you kept at a Temple of Bhaal and that the letter Gorion wrote you in Baldur's Gate 1 saying that he had adopted you didn't tell you the entire truth - he wasn't your mom's lover and probably never knew her. At least I think that's how it goes.

What happened was, him and his harper buddies attacked a temple of bhaal and found you there, with many other children, including Sarevok. They helped the kids to escape but during the chaos, most got lost (some taken by priestesses of bhaal and such) - but Gorion and friends managed to rescue both you and Imoen and raised you both.

Sarevok ran away and had to lead a small life of crime on the streets until he pickpocketted the wrong man - his soon-to-be stepfather, who was the lord of the Iron Throne, who took him under his (rather abusive) wing and educated him.

Some of the others were raised by priestesses of bhaal, such as Yuger or whatever that big Fire Giant's name is. He was raised by the witch at the derelict Temple of Bhaal in TOB.

Anyway, I'm running off topic here - Sarevok mentions how he would be you and you may very well be him, had he been the one rescued by Gorion instead of you. While not exactly 'generic', I think it could be said that any one of the Bhaalspawn you meet could be you. Pretty cool eh?

Can't say the same about NWN though - what the hell happened?

 

[Volourn]

They listened to the fans too much.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Just so you know, I'm not defending BG as an RPG, because it's a pretty horrible one in that sense. I'm just saying that some of the plot devices it used were alright.

What bugged me about the game is how you couldn't play a bad guy due to the flaming fist chasing your ass down, or being given any real choices to play a bad guy.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

Ex: good point I had forgotten about the increasing bounty - k. That makes sense I guess.
And I thought other than the final battle, the bounty hunter fights were just about the toughest in the game. That and the battle before the mines in Cloakwood or whereever against a group of Sarevok's minions.

 

[Sol Invictus]

While I enjoyed Baldur's Gate (and Baldur's Gate 2 to a lesser degree due to its overabundance of stupid dungeons) here are some problems I had with BG aside from the crappy CTB mode:

1-hit die assassins (already mentioned)
+2 longswords early in the game
kobolds carrying +1 and +2 arrows.
lame mages
little or no choice in being a 'good guy'
pathfinding
no real decisionmaking

What I liked the most about BG was the whole night/day thing. That came as a huge surprise to me as I saw the hues changing while I was playing and a 'sun setting' movie. Pretty neat. Fallout had that too, and I absolutely loved it. Things were different at night - peasants were inside their houses instead of outside. Nice touch there. Pity some places didn't really have that consistency, though. IWD2's early areas addressed that - but that's a different game.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

Well I Iiked the BG series more than most around here, tho not as much as some. What I really liked about BG was the free form exploration; e.g no reason to explore the coast but if you did you might encounter those water nymphs or sirens or whatever they were and a hidden cave with a neat tome in it. Or a mining expedition in the middle of the wilds etc...
I also prefer games that don't give you uber-level; esp in DnD I like a max level of 10-12.
And the city of Baldurs Gate was I thought really well done - it felt alive to me.

Well there you go somehow this thread has turned into a BG discussion.

 

[Seven]

Anyways, what are you getting at? I explained the fact that your character in SOu isn't the only important person. You could not have been successful in your mission if it wasn't for your teacher who sacrificed himself, or the asabi merchant who SAVED you from being a stone statue for all etenrity. Yeah, how greta your PC is when he's a permenant statue.

My apologies, I should have addressed this earlier since you use it so much. 8) I take issue with these scripted events because they are hard (is this the right word?) scripted. What I mean to say is that there's no other options (they're forced upon you despite your choices within the world) So IMO those events are plot devices and do not reflect the characters within the game world's ability to affect you because they have no choice, but to act because of your lack of choice. This is bad game design, not NPC's making a difference.