Decline Gaming 2004 vs Gaming 2024 Comparison

[JarlFrank]

- Oblivion (2006)

bruh

 

[Lemming42]

Early 2000s was... a golden age for culture in general.

It was a fucking nightmare! Reality TV went apeshit, everything felt a lot seedier and crueller than before (especially some of the talk shows at the time here in the UK), the social progress of the mid-90s felt like it was backsliding, the post-9/11 climate was extremely dark and frightening, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were depressing as fuck and the counter-culture in response to them fucking sucked (remember Rise Against?), and worst of all, nobody would shut the fuck up about South Park. Oh, and Newgrounds, great.

The annoying twee-ness of 2009/2010 felt like a soothing balm at the time after a decade of absolute nastiness. Although having said that, I remember thinking things were getting better from around 2006/2007, but that's partly because I was completely off my head for a good chunk of the late 2000s and can't remember a fucking thing about it.

EDIT: I've just realised, this is how my mum must have always felt when I used to state that the 90s were a cultural golden age. She didn't have a clue what I was on about, because her main memories of the decade were financial trouble, a decaying Tory government, and music she absolutely hated. Now it's happening to me when early 2000s kids try to claim that was a golden age. When late 2010s nostalgia rolls around in about 15 years it's going to be an absolute trip.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

2004 was already decline. The last good western game was The Temple of Elemental Evil (2003).

1999 was possibly the best year in gaming history.

Heroes of Might and Magic III
System Shock 2
Planescape Torment
Quake 3 Arena
Unreal Tournament
Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun
EverQuest
Age of Empires II
Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver
Jagged Alliance 2
M&M 7
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
Dungeon Keeper 2
Silent Hill
Homeworld
Descent 3
Outcast
Omikron the Nomad Soul
(even the first public release of Counter-Strike)

These are literally some of the best games in their respective genres and are still unsurpassed

1991:

• Lemmings
• Another World
• Populous II
• Alien Breed
• Amnios
• Blade Warrior
• Carcharodon
• Fate: Gates of Dawn
• First Samurai
• Hunter
• Moonstone
• Oh No! More Lemmings
• Wayne Gretzky Hockey II
• Civilization
• Death Knights of Krynn
• Eye of the Beholder
• Might & Magic III
• SimAnt
• Sonic the Hedgehog (Megadrive/Genesis)
• A Link to the Past (Legend of Zelda III; Super Famicom/NES)
• Final Fantasy IV (Super Famicom/NES)
• Street Fighter 2 (arcade)
• The Simpsons (arcade)

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Early 2000s was... a golden age for culture in general.

It was a fucking nightmare! Reality TV went apeshit, everything felt a lot seedier and crueller than before (especially some of the talk shows at the time here in the UK), the social progress of the mid-90s felt like it was backsliding, the post-9/11 climate was extremely dark and frightening, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were depressing as fuck and the counter-culture in response to them fucking sucked (remember Rise Against?), and worst of all, nobody would shut the fuck up about South Park. Oh, and Newgrounds, great.

The annoying twee-ness of 2009/2010 felt like a soothing balm at the time after a decade of absolute nastiness. Although having said that, I remember thinking things were getting better from around 2006/2007, but that's partly because I was completely off my head for a good chunk of the late 2000s and can't remember a fucking thing about it.

EDIT: I've just realised, this is how my mum must have always felt when I used to state that the 90s were a cultural golden age. She didn't have a clue what I was on about, because her main memories of the decade were financial trouble, a decaying Tory government, and music she absolutely hated. Now it's happening to me when early 2000s kids try to claim that was a golden age. When late 2010s nostalgia rolls around in about 15 years it's going to be an absolute trip.

Exactly. In the '00s I started to look at the past, because the present was shit. In the '10s I was still looking at the past, but then I realized that the past now included the '00s too, that were shit. So I stopped looking at the past.

 

[luj1]

2004 was already decline. The last good western game was The Temple of Elemental Evil (2003).

1999 was possibly the best year in gaming history.

Heroes of Might and Magic III
System Shock 2
Planescape Torment
Quake 3 Arena
Unreal Tournament
Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun
EverQuest
Age of Empires II
Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver
Jagged Alliance 2
M&M 7
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
Dungeon Keeper 2
Silent Hill
Homeworld
Descent 3
Outcast
Omikron the Nomad Soul
(even the 1st public release of Counter-Strike)

These are literally some of the best games in their respective genres and are still unsurpassed

1991:

• Lemmings
• Another World
• Populous II
• Alien Breed
• Amnios
• Blade Warrior
• Carcharodon
• Fate: Gates of Dawn
• First Samurai
• Hunter
• Moonstone
• Oh No! More Lemmings
• Wayne Gretzky Hockey II
• Civilization
• Death Knights of Krynn
• Eye of the Beholder
• Might & Magic III
• SimAnt
• Sonic the Hedgehog (Megadrive/Genesis)
• A Link to the Past (Legend of Zelda III; Super Famicom/NES)
• Final Fantasy IV (Super Famicom/NES)
• Street Fighter 2 (arcade)
• The Simpsons (arcade)

Respect but not even close.

 

[v1c70r14]

Funny how all the games you list came out in 2004 or earlier. Not a single one from 2005 or later.
Almost as if that proves the point that 2004 was the end of the golden age.

Nope. I just didn't want to make a wall of text. But there quite a few good games of the second half of the decade too:

- Fallout: New Vegas (2010)
- Dark Messiah of Might and Magic (2006)
- Demon’s Souls (2009)
- Neverwinter Nights 2 (2006)
- Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (2007)
- Drakensang: The Dark Eye (2008)
- F.E.A.R. (2006)
- S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (2007)
- Resident Evil 4 (2005)
- Batman: Arkham Asylum (2009)
- Risen (2009)
- The Witcher (2007)
- Oblivion (2006)

Personally my heart is with the first half of the century, it was more dark and cooler. But is a stretch to say that the other half was complete shit especially because culture in general had cool stuff like movies and anime going strong. I bet everyone has at least one album or movie that dates from this time period. Once you hit the 2010 is when things might get seriously ugly due to culture stagnation.

I'd add Mirror's Edge to that pile, still holds up visually and it came out in 2008.

 

[The Decline]

Funny how all the games you list came out in 2004 or earlier. Not a single one from 2005 or later.
Almost as if that proves the point that 2004 was the end of the golden age.

Nope. I just didn't want to make a wall of text. But there quite a few good games of the second half of the decade too:

- Fallout: New Vegas (2010)
- Dark Messiah of Might and Magic (2006)
- Demon’s Souls (2009)
- Neverwinter Nights 2 (2006)
- Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (2007)
- Drakensang: The Dark Eye (2008)
- F.E.A.R. (2006)
- S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (2007)
- Resident Evil 4 (2005)
- Batman: Arkham Asylum (2009)
- Risen (2009)
- The Witcher (2007)
- Oblivion (2006)

Personally my heart is with the first half of the century, it was more dark and cooler. But is a stretch to say that the other half was complete shit especially because culture in general had cool stuff like movies and anime going strong. I bet everyone has at least one album or movie that dates from this time period. Once you hit the 2010 is when things might get seriously ugly due to culture stagnation.

I'd add Mirror's Edge to that pile, still holds up visually and it came out in 2008.

Ironic that you can't turn on all the bells and whistles (i.e. physx) with the latest Nvidia GPUs without it becoming a slideshow.

 

[Lemming42]

Every time the topic of the late 2000s comes up, I open my big list of games and think "I'll contribute a few to the thread to show it wasn't all bad" but I actually can't find any.

There's the obvious good stuff (F.E.A.R., Mirror's Edge, SWAT 4, Dark Messiah) but then I'm quickly forced into the realm of games that I'd consider good but with some big flaws (Mount & Blade, STALKER, Fallout 3, Men of War, Portal), then even more quickly into the realm of things that are kind of shit but maybe worth a look to see if you can wring some enjoyment out of it (Dragon Age, Witcher, BioShock, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Stolen) and then you're just left with things that are worth a recommendation either as a joke or in a "play it for a laugh and at best it's 4/10" way (Venetica, Soldier of Fortune Payback, Necrovision).

People who complain about gaming in the 2020s should be locked in a room and forced to play every retail game released from 2005 - 2009 as punishment. You get more worthwhile games in any six month period nowadays than you got in that entire era. It's so depressingly shit it defies belief. I'm genuinely surprised I didn't just kill myself back then.

 

[octavius]

2004 was already decline. The last good western game was The Temple of Elemental Evil (2003).

1999 was possibly the best year in gaming history.

Heroes of Might and Magic III
System Shock 2
Planescape Torment
Quake 3 Arena
Unreal Tournament
Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun
EverQuest
Age of Empires II
Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver
Jagged Alliance 2
M&M 7
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
Dungeon Keeper 2
Silent Hill
Homeworld
Descent 3
Outcast
Omikron the Nomad Soul
(even the first public release of Counter-Strike)

These are literally some of the best games in their respective genres and are still unsurpassed

And you didn't even mention Age of Wonders.

 

[Ash]

As you may know I am always sucking off 90s, and call the 2000s "The Terrible 2000s" and believe the overall decline started to set in around 2003 or so. However I want to defend some well-meaning devs. PC gaming was absolute trash by 2004, absolutely. I like VTM:B despite its many flaws but not a whole lot else around that time. Maybe some OK games like Dark Messiah. Console gaming had generally declined too, for much of the same reasons (selling out for big bucks, graphics & realism focus etc) however it hadn't been hit quite as hard as PC just yet, until around 2006-2007. There were still some very good games being made, up until the release of the Shitbox360. Here's some examples:

Ninja Gaiden (2004), one of the best action games ever made.
Resident Evil 4 (2005), it's Resident Evil only in name yet regardless it is a quality action horror romp.
Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth (2005), a hardcore action-adventure survival horror puzzle FPS hybrid. It's not the best thing ever but it is a title every gamer with taste and isn't a huge pussy for horror should check out at some point.
Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams (2006), cool campy hack and slash puzzle RPG hybrid. Definitely not top quality classic of all time material, but I consider this at least 7.75, maybe 8/10.
Castlevania: Order Of Eclessia (2006), simply a solid Metroidvania, though not the greatest.

And quite a number many more. Still decline overall compared to the golden days of gaming and many series were already turning into utter shit, but some serious quality was still getting released here and there by console devs (primarily Japanese ones, but not always) that hadn't got the sellout memo yet. As well as some plain old good or decent titles released in steady frequency.

 

[luj1]

(Dragon Age, Witcher, BioShock, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Stolen)

Harbingers of decline

Exact moment when the "cinematic decline" started

 

[Ash]

Early 2000s was... a golden age for culture in general.

It was a fucking nightmare! Reality TV went apeshit, everything felt a lot seedier and crueller than before (especially some of the talk shows at the time here in the UK), the social progress of the mid-90s felt like it was backsliding, the post-9/11 climate was extremely dark and frightening, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were depressing as fuck and the counter-culture in response to them fucking sucked (remember Rise Against?), and worst of all, nobody would shut the fuck up about South Park. Oh, and Newgrounds, great.

The annoying twee-ness of 2009/2010 felt like a soothing balm at the time after a decade of absolute nastiness. Although having said that, I remember thinking things were getting better from around 2006/2007, but that's partly because I was completely off my head for a good chunk of the late 2000s and can't remember a fucking thing about it.

EDIT: I've just realised, this is how my mum must have always felt when I used to state that the 90s were a cultural golden age. She didn't have a clue what I was on about, because her main memories of the decade were financial trouble, a decaying Tory government, and music she absolutely hated. Now it's happening to me when early 2000s kids try to claim that was a golden age. When late 2010s nostalgia rolls around in about 15 years it's going to be an absolute trip.

70s/80s/90s were all golden in their own way, though imperfect. Those imperfections would stand out to the prior generation, though they were never too numerous. 2000s and beyond however the selling out, degeneracy and decline just hit critical mass. Almost EVERYTHING declined and hard. Each prior generation would have numerous accomplishments, bristling culture, and respective golden ages (e.g mid 80s into the 90s golden age of action movies). There's so much decline, degeneration and mediocrity since the 2000s until now, though there are silver linings say like we're obviously in the golden age of indie games right now. But that simply does not compare to the vast accomplishments of the past.

One of the most obvious declines yet for some reason not often recognised: Does anyone remember how in the 90s the radio and charts would play metal, rock, reggae, hardcore, drum & bass, dance, trance, wide varieties of feel-good pop, R&B, hip-hop, 70s music, 80s music, there were almost no genre boundaries (though plenty underground stuff of course stayed underground). You were right, that very obviously is peak culture, even if there was some unfavorable aspects. Now you get only one flavor: trash (very slight exaggeration). Also, the degeneracy and brainwashing is increased considerably too, blasting disgusting hedonistic masculine whores on repeat bragging about getting infinite dick and money, as well as lot of pushing of feminism to ensure women remain fully integrated into the workforce or otherwise sow more division and cuckoldry of masculinity. Also, for all the DEI and woke shit in the declined western world, pop music these days is something like 50% black people 50% white it seems. Very little representation from any other race. Most of the western world is FULL of East Indians, Chinese and such, and yet...very curious eh?

- Dark Messiah of Might and Magic (2006)
- F.E.A.R. (2006)
- Batman: Arkham Asylum (2009)
- The Witcher (2007)
- Oblivion (2006)

This is a mix of OK at best (Dark Messiah, FEAR) to utter shit decline (Batman, Oblivion). You need some serious INCLINE my friend.

 

[Silverfish]

People who complain about gaming in the 2020s should be locked in a room and forced to play every retail game released from 2005 - 2009 as punishment.

 

[Ash]

People who complain about gaming in the 2020s should be locked in a room and forced to play every retail game released from 2005 - 2009 as punishment.

Definitely a solid point, but it is important to recognize the following: only indie (very low budget) is carrying gaming right now. The core industry is utter trash, when it used to drive us forward as well as deliver absolutely top quality games with sizable budgets and cutting edge technology in the 90s. Also very important is the core industry is still consumed in mass quantities by newer generations and normies, which dumbs them and their culture down, and overrides or dilutes ours (connoisseurs of incline) in present and well into the future. True incline the likes of which I experienced ever surfacing again is sadly seemingly completely out of reach. One final note is for every great quality indie, there are 100 or more utter shit. Easy to ignore those but it's still not good to be so inundated by crap. Browsing steam for a good game is a very...unique experience.

 

[Lemming42]

Definitely a solid point, but it is important to recognize the following: only indie (very low budget) is carrying gaming right now. The core industry is utter trash, when it used to drive us forward as well as deliver absolutely top quality games with sizable budgets and cutting edge technology in the 90s. Also very important is the core industry is still consumed in mass quantities by newer generations and normies, which dumbs them and their culture down, and overrides or dilutes ours (connoisseurs of incline) in present and well into the future. True incline the likes of which I experienced ever surfacing again is sadly seemingly completely out of reach. One final note is for every great quality indie, there are 100 or more utter shit. Easy to ignore those but it's still not good to be so inundated by crap. Browsing steam for a good game is a very...unique experience.

I think part of it is that gaming is very fragmented now in a way it wasn't before; everyone was aware of stuff like Doom and Myst even if their interests lay outside those genres since they served as milestones in both tech and game design which had ripple effects on gaming in general, which doesn't happen so much today. You can find as many good games as ever today but you don't get those Doom-style moments every year like you used to where it feels like the entire medium is taking a leap forward. So browsing the Steam store for indies feels depressing and isolating even if you're technically coming across a large number of good games, since the culture around gaming has dissolved and atomised.

You sometimes get games that breach containment and end up popular outside their own subgenre and even attain a small degree of wider cultural relevance (Baldur's Gate 3 being the most obvious example that springs to mind from the past couple years) but it's not really the same, there's not much about BG3 in terms of game mechanics or technology that can seep into other genres in the way that Doom made everyone think "fuck, 3D first person perspective is cool, let's put that in our adventure/puzzle/platform game".

 

[Ash]

You can find as many good games as ever today

Highly debatable. What is not debatable though is you don't get as many absolutely top quality games. I'm loving indie gaming but not too many would make my top 100, even fewer my top 50, and almost certainly none in my top 10. But you're right about fragmentation....maybe I just need to play some of the indies you have played? Got a top 5?

 

[Nifft Batuff]

It's interesting that this thread started with a comparison between 2004 and 2024 to see how much the world has declined, but soon changed to a reminiscence of the abyss that the '00s represented.

And another note: people that are conflating the decline with the insurgence of DEI, feminism, wokeism, etc. should be aware that in the '00s the cultural climate was the opposite, i.e. the zeitgeist of the post 9/11.

 

[Lemming42]

But you're right about fragmentation....maybe I just need to play some of the indies you have played? Got a top 5?

I'd have a hard time picking a top 5 but here's some off the top of my head I've really liked from the past 15~ years:

FTL: Faster Than Light
Starcom: Unknown Space
Subnautica
Slay the Spire
Peaks of Yore
Dead in Vinland
Legend of Grimrock
Outer Wilds
Fights in Tight Spaces
Dungeon Rats
Desperados 3 (debatable if it counts as indie or not, but Mimimi were a small enough team)
Filcher
Ready or Not (bizarre writing, but otherwise a great update on SWAT 4)
Hades (not as much of a fan of this as everyone else, is but it's undeniably fun for a few runs)
SKALD: Against the Black Priory
Dread Delusion
Fallen Aces (early access but good so far)

The "boomer shooter" revival is a whole other thing too, some good entries (Overload, Ion Fury, Zortch), some decent ones, mostly pretty awful though.

I always wonder when I'm playing new games how I would have felt about them if they'd come out in 1998 and I was judging them by the standards of that time, rather than approaching them in a kind of post-decline "alright, this game better show me what it's got or I'm uninstalling it" kind of way. It was in my head a lot when I played Subnautica for some reason, I was just thinking "if there'd been a game exactly like this when I was a kid that let you dive anywhere on an ocean planet, I would have jizzed myself".

 

[Ash]

I will quote one of your games listed there: "Gone is the age of ambition. Nigh is the age of delusion".

It's delusional to think today's indie matches the golden age of incline, even if it's in a very good place right now. The production values for starters don't have anything on the multi-million dollar budgets of top quality games in the late 90s. The game design will never be as uncompromising and deep, broadly-speaking. Indies are also pretty lacking by comparison in the realm of music in my experience, unfortunately.

"It was in my head a lot when I played Subnautica for some reason, I was just thinking "if there'd been a game exactly like this when I was a kid that let you dive anywhere on an ocean planet, I would have jizzed myself".

There's been quite a few diving games over the years. Pretty sure Subnautica was not the first to have a mini-open world to dive in. Also you can't dive anywhere on an whole planet. Subnautica's playspace isn't that big (and nor should it be particularly big).

 

[Lemming42]

The only game older 3D diving game I can remember was AquaNox, which was pretty fun, but much closer to Descent than it was to Subnautica.

Indies are also pretty lacking by comparison in the realm of music in my experience, unfortunately.

This is true, I'll never understand why "retro" styled FPS games have decided to adopt shitty heavy metal rather than the electronic/DnB stuff that the likes of UT99 and Deus Ex had (or even the more atmospheric, tuneful metal-inspired stuff in Heretic). Though the new trend seems to be throwback imsims rather than Doom clones, so maybe that'll change.

 

[Ash]

There were numerous retro FPS (or TPS) with amazing electronic music too. I am willing to bet you've not played them though, because they weren't on PC! Well, aside from Unreal 98 & 99. Juicy electronic soundtracks those two. Quake 2 can count too, since it was a very cool hybridization of electronic and metal.

 

[luj1]

It's delusional to think today's indie matches the golden age of incline

I will say that KotC2 has outmatched ToEE. It is possibly the best combatfag RPG ever created.

Also, while Underrail cannot match Fallout's atmosphere, story, and worldbuilding, it has vastly bested its combat and build variety.

Grimoire is like Wizardry 6-8, but with more of everything. It's on steroids.

Lastly, some NwN modules (Swordflight, Against the Cult of the Reptile God, etc.) are better than dozens of commercially available RPGs from most eras.

 

[anvi]

It's delusional to think today's indie matches the golden age of incline

I will say that KotC2 has outmatched ToEE. It is possibly the best combatfag RPG ever created.

Also, while Underrail cannot match Fallout's atmosphere, story, and worldbuilding, it has vastly bested its combat and build variety.

Grimoire is like Wizardry 6-8, but with more of everything. It's on steroids.

Lastly, some NwN modules (Swordflight, Against the Cult of the Reptile God, etc.) are better than dozens of commercially available RPGs from most eras.

Yeah I think modern indies are mostly lame and a million miles from the golden age games. But there are definite exceptions. KOTC 2 is a masterpiece. I love Arma2 and 3 sort of. Monster Train is one of my comfiest games. I liked the first Orcs Must Die a lot and an amazing tower defense game called Dungeon Warfare. Also Besiege was good. I hear Starsector is v good. I like Age of Wonders 3 which is kinda modern and kinda indie.

 

[luj1]

I liked the first Orcs Must Die a lot and an amazing tower defense game called Dungeon Warfare. Also Besiege was good

If you like tower defence, you should try this too

KOTC 2 is a masterpiece

Try Hearkenwold. It's even better than Augury of Chaos (imho) and probably the best RPG I played in years

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah I think modern indies are mostly lame and a million miles from the golden age games. But there are definite exceptions.

The thing with indie games is you have to dig a little deeper instead of just skimming the surface. The gems are often hidden.