GDC 2007: The Evolution of the RPG at 1UP

[doctor_kaz]

Here's a couple of predictions: Bioshock will sell less than 250,000 copies on the X-Box 360 and Dragon Age will easily outsell Mass Effect.

Honestly, that would be awesome, and it could happen. Then, hopefully, we'll see more PC-centric stuff out of Bioware and Irrational in the future.

If Biowhore is truly aiming at the RPG fansbase then the game will have proper turn based combat. Somehow I doubt there will be TB, for Biowhore is surely in the opinion that RPGers enjoy to watch the chaotically running arounds ants on the screen while constantly pressing pause.

Bioware has already said that the game will have real-time combat. But it will be a true real-time system, so in my opinion that instantly ranks the combat above adapted D20 games that have that crappy TB-shoehorned-into-RT-combat. Call me a naive idealist but I'm holding out hope for Dragon Age still.

 

[AlanC9]

Excuse me but this sort of dumbing down of PC series for the console kiddies has been happening for years. It almost always fails and yet they still try to push their game to the Xbox.

Unless "fails" means "fails to make games that The Walkin' Dude likes," the problem with console developing is that it succeeds.

If Biowhore is truly aiming at the RPG fansbase then the game will have proper turn based combat. Somehow I doubt there will be TB, for Biowhore is surely in the opinion that RPGers enjoy to watch the chaotically running arounds ants on the screen while constantly pressing pause.

So RPG = turn-based combat? What nonsense.

 

[Volourn]

Don't mind TWD. He's Tri Light. He of the turn base combat = rpg. L0L

 

[Shannow]

Oh, please. You need a magic weapon to hit a lich, but that's it. Defeating them is a matter of using your spellcasters properly. There are one or two magic items that can help, but they're not necessary.

Liches are also vulnerable to cheap exploits, like getting out of their LOS and sending pets in. They expend their spells on the pets, you wait until the durations expire on their protection spells, then kill them.

BG2 doesn't require much thought. You need some knowledge of the system, but after that you just run the standard playbook. Though TOEE was even worse in that regard.

I'm not a D&D-rules-geek, but: IIRC
1. Liches use protection against magical weapons.
2. Liches were imune to spells they knew and could cast every spell they knew as often as they wanted.

Correct me if i'm wrong.
I usually defeated them by waiting out the duration of protection against magical weapons and then hurting them or with the mace of undead-destruction (whatever it was called) or by exploiting traps...

 

[Volourn]

"I'm not a D&D-rules-geek, but: IIRC
1. Liches use protection against magical weapons.
2. Liches were imune to spells they knew and could cast every spell they knew as often as they wanted."

1. Not all of them. Like all magic users, they ahve to memorize the spell/have the spell in their spellbook.

2. Nope. They had some immunities; but nothing like that. Theyc ast spells exactly like mages do.


"Correct me if i'm wrong."

Always my pleasure to do this. :D


"I usually defeated them by waiting out the duration of protection against magical weapons and then hurting them or with the mace of undead-destruction (whatever it was called)"

The mace doesn't always work as liches have pretty good saves; but that's always handy though. Does make them easier than they otherwise be.

" or by exploiting traps..."

Traps. I hate the way BG2 (or any CRPG) handles traps. Munchkin city, indeed.

 

[Krafter]

Bioware has already said that the game will have real-time combat. But it will be a true real-time system, so in my opinion that instantly ranks the combat above adapted D20 games that have that crappy TB-shoehorned-into-RT-combat. Call me a naive idealist but I'm holding out hope for Dragon Age still.

Maybe someone can tell me otherwise (Volourn?), but I'm guessing Dragon Age will wind up somewhere between Gothic and the Elder Scrolls games, combat-wise. Whether this is good or not is anybody's guess.

I vastly perfer turn-based, and I'd like to see a ton of big time TB CRPGs come out, but that's not happening. Having said that, I'm looking forward to Dragon Age, anyway. Maybe Bioware will go with the 'extreme next-gen' crap for Mass Effect, and go more 'Return to Baldur's Gate' with Dragon Age. I hope so, anyway.

 

[Volourn]

Mass Effect will be awesome. It will likjely be better than either BG game, and it will 99.9% be better than them role-playing wise.

As for DA's combat style; all I know, IIRC, is that BIO has best describe dit as 'RT with stats'.

 

[suibhne]

Bioware has already said that the game will have real-time combat. But it will be a true real-time system, so in my opinion that instantly ranks the combat above adapted D20 games that have that crappy TB-shoehorned-into-RT-combat. Call me a naive idealist but I'm holding out hope for Dragon Age still.

Maybe someone can tell me otherwise (Volourn?), but I'm guessing Dragon Age will wind up somewhere between Gothic and the Elder Scrolls games, combat-wise. Whether this is good or not is anybody's guess.

Er, no, not really. DA is party-based, and Gaider has even suggested in these forums that they may have a semi-top-down "tactical view" for battles even tho the world exploration camera will be behind-the-shoulder (or, uh, something like that - I can't remember :wink: ). I don't know whether the separate tactical camera is still possible, but it at least sounds like Bioware wants combat to be genuinely tactical from a party-based perspective - nothing at all like either G3 or Oblivion/Morrowind, in other words.

I'm also pretty sure it's already been confirmed as RTwP, not straight RT. Anyone else remember?

 

[doctor_kaz]

Bioware has already said that the game will have real-time combat. But it will be a true real-time system, so in my opinion that instantly ranks the combat above adapted D20 games that have that crappy TB-shoehorned-into-RT-combat. Call me a naive idealist but I'm holding out hope for Dragon Age still.

Maybe someone can tell me otherwise (Volourn?), but I'm guessing Dragon Age will wind up somewhere between Gothic and the Elder Scrolls games, combat-wise. Whether this is good or not is anybody's guess.

Er, no, not really. DA is party-based, and Gaider has even suggested in these forums that they may have a semi-top-down "tactical view" for battles even tho the world exploration camera will be behind-the-shoulder (or, uh, something like that - I can't remember :wink: ). I don't know whether the separate tactical camera is still possible, but it at least sounds like Bioware wants combat to be genuinely tactical from a party-based perspective - nothing at all like either G3 or Oblivion/Morrowind, in other words.

I'm also pretty sure it's already been confirmed as RTwP, not straight RT. Anyone else remember?

The Bioware pitch is that it's Baldurs Gate without D&D, with a toolset, and also with a close up 3rd person camera during exploration. Sounds pretty good to me so far. I'd prefer turn-based, but without that, a true real-time system with pausing isn't bad.

 

[Volourn]

It's BG+ NWN + KOTOR+ JE + ME + SS+ MK2 + WHATEVER OTHER GAME BIO HAS OR WILL MAKE BEFORE THEN

R00fles!

 

[Shannow]

"I'm not a D&D-rules-geek, but: IIRC
1. Liches use protection against magical weapons.
2. Liches were imune to spells they knew and could cast every spell they knew as often as they wanted."

1. Not all of them. Like all magic users, they ahve to memorize the spell/have the spell in their spellbook.

2. Nope. They had some immunities; but nothing like that. Theyc ast spells exactly like mages do.


"Correct me if i'm wrong."

Always my pleasure to do this. :D

1. That of course was no general D&D rule for liches, but the way they behaved in BG2. (At least i don't remember any fight in which the lich didn't use the protection spell first. If Bioware implemented the rule that they have only a limited amount of spells, they really gave them LOTS of them. I fought one lich who cast imprisonment at least 10 times on me. Probably more like 15-20 times. Damn saves. Thats quite a lot of lvl 9 spells (Didn't help him. I was protected against [insert magic school].)

And thanks for the info.

 

[Texas Red]

Shannow, the only lich that can cast impisonment so many times is Kangaxx the Demilich. If I recall correctly they did or do have this ability in D&D.

 

[Drakron]

You recall INCORRECTLY.

2nd ed. AD&D lich never had imprisonment, in fact neither did the demilich but the demilich did had two special abilities, a instant death ray attack and a soul trap attack (the soul was imprisoned in the gems that replaced the teeth).

Kangaxx had the death attack but the soul trap attack was replaced with the imprisonment spell (likely because it was impossible to implemented the ability as written).

3rd Ed D&D have the soul trap attack but only demilich have it, regular lich do not.

 

[Volourn]

"2nd ed. AD&D lich never had imprisonment,"

Sure, they did. As a 9th level spell if they so chose since all AD&D liches were, at minimum 18th level not counting the stupid elven arch lich. L0L

 

[Drakron]

Never had as a special ability, not as a spell.

 

[Volourn]

Next time clarify that or be labeled moron. oops. Nothing can change that label of yours. Sorry.

 

[suibhne]

Next time clarify that or be labeled moron. oops. Nothing can change that label of yours. Sorry.

I'll see his "Erudite" and raise him a "Pretty Princess".

R00fles!

 

[galsiah]

The Evolution of the RPG: 30 years on, and still bitching over (A)D&D minutiae.
Truly we've come a long way.

 

[HardCode]

He with the biggest pocket protector is the AD&D rules king.

 

[Volourn]

Hilariously enough, I have never owned a pocket protector nor have I ever seen one person who does. R00fles!

 

[doctor_kaz]

AD&D was, indeed, a horribly cluttered system. 3rd Edition is the best ever example of "streamlining to make things more accessible without dumbing down" I have ever seen.

 

[Volourn]

And, you call yourself a doctor. I thought doctors were intelligent.

 

[Fez]

It depends on what he is a doctor of. Maybe he's a doctor of love.

 

[bobo_monkey]

THE DINGO'S ATE MY BABY!

Fucking dingos.

Imagine if somebody did a Japanese manga about a Lich encountering some adventurers. He would cast time stop, grow some tentacles, and do unspeakable things to the scantily clad female fighter in a chainmail bikini. Then she would pull a magic sword (which resembles a large dildo) out of her bikini top, lop the liches skull of and have sex with all the male fighters and their summoned pets.

Now thats my kind of lich fight.

 

[psycojester]

*sigh* somebody get the warehouse on the phone. They've misread the order and sent us another Volourn. We really don't need this shit.

BTW shadow of the Colossus was awesome indeed. It always struck me as the half of Black and White that Molyneaux forgot to put into the game. You know the Good half