Development Info Geneforge 2 website open

[Saint_Proverbius]

An interesting way to look at it. I think "worrying" (I use the term very loosely hear) that Vogel might priase BG2 or EQ sort of misses the point. For one, his games aren't really like BG2 (EQ is obviously not relevant). In fact, they share more in common with other games I think we would agree are superior to BG2. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

It doesn't "worry" me in the least. I just find it perplexing. Jeff's been loving EverQuest for years now, and that didn't stop him from making Geneforge.

Of course, it may be why Geneforge had that experience system similar to EverQuest where you don't gain XP for certain things which can kill you in numbers because you're more powerful than the lone creature, which I'm not fond of. I always hate getting slayed by Reaper Turrets mid-game, when I don't get experience for them.

I understand the idea behind this, but I just don't care much for it in terms of gameplay.

Secondly, his columns are interesting read but I highly doubt he was going to do a column one day and tee off on a another (for a variety of reasons). Rather, he simply picked games that had elements he thought worked well to use as examples, and probably deliberately picked popular games to do so. I'm not saying he is sitting in a room right now going "hahaha, I fooled them all, I really hate BG2", but his praising it (certainly the way it and other games were disucssed in the columns) does not indicate he doesn't have a lot of criticisms.

I'm not sure. I think sometimes Vogel does things to shake things up, which isn't that bad typically. Vogel's always been good about priasing the games of others, as well, even though I've typically felt that his games were better than the ones he's praised. Perhaps he's just modest.

I think this is a clear cut case where extending certain design concepts, continuing a larger story arc (to a degree, see the Avernums), and fixing things that didn't work lead to an excellent sequel opportunity. Sometimes, sequel's are a good thing. His haven't ever failed to please, to be sure.

Also, I think part of his planning revolves around reusing an engine a few times, which is pretty smart when you think about it.

Well, there's a lot not seen in Geneforge. I have to disagree with Deathy about there not being room for originality in the setting of Geneforge 2 because we only got a glimpse of ruins of Shaper things past. There are a number of things we've not seen, such as Shaper politics, the council, working and lively Shaper villages, and so on.

 

[Spazmo]

Reaper turrets can kill the player at any level. They're crazy powerful. It's very vexating to slog through a bridgeful of them and get all of 0 XP for my efforts. At least you get reaper thorns.

And Saint, Geneforge-style XP schemes work best, I think. It lets you keep the XP numbers relatively small and easy to calculate, as opposed to the often astronomical experience totals you often see in games like AD&D. I really like the idea of Challenge Ratings and Encounter Levels in 3rd Ed., because it makes it a lot easier for DMs to judge whether or not their PCs are capable of handling a monster or encounter.

 

[Deathy]

Well, there's a lot not seen in Geneforge. I have to disagree with Deathy about there not being room for originality in the setting of Geneforge 2 because we only got a glimpse of ruins of Shaper things past. There are a number of things we've not seen, such as Shaper politics, the council, working and lively Shaper villages, and so on.

Well, one of my favourite parts of Geneforge was speculating about the nature of Shaper society. I've been in a number of interesting conversations with you and others about it, and the mystery really added to Geneforge itself. I'd have to say that that kind of intellectual stimulation was one of the reasons I liked Geneforge to begin with, and, with Geneforge placed in the middle of the above mystery, I'm kinda afraid that it will shatter the idea of the enigmatic Shaper society.
I would really have preferred if it were set on a frontier area, or another barred isle, because then, there's the oppurtunity to leave the Shapers as they are best, an enigma.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

And Saint, Geneforge-style XP schemes work best, I think. It lets you keep the XP numbers relatively small and easy to calculate, as opposed to the often astronomical experience totals you often see in games like AD&D. I really like the idea of Challenge Ratings and Encounter Levels in 3rd Ed., because it makes it a lot easier for DMs to judge whether or not their PCs are capable of handling a monster or encounter.

Yeah, I agree, the CR part of 3E is really one of the best parts. I think games should try to adopt the group CR aspect, though, it does more accurately reflect the threat. Games I've seen that use the concept all work with individual monsters, which doesn't necessarily work. Not to mention if you're going to toss monsters at the player when there's no challenge, what's the point? And if they are a challenge, maybe you need to add mitigating circumstances. Under 3E, your party might not get experience for killing a goblin. 20 goblins, with ranged weapons, situated in a strategically advantageous position, who've set up an ambush? That could very well be a different story.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Reaper turrets can kill the player at any level. They're crazy powerful. It's very vexating to slog through a bridgeful of them and get all of 0 XP for my efforts. At least you get reaper thorns.

And Saint, Geneforge-style XP schemes work best, I think. It lets you keep the XP numbers relatively small and easy to calculate, as opposed to the often astronomical experience totals you often see in games like AD&D. I really like the idea of Challenge Ratings and Encounter Levels in 3rd Ed., because it makes it a lot easier for DMs to judge whether or not their PCs are capable of handling a monster or encounter.

The reason I don't like it is because if there is risk, there should be reward. That is to say that if you can die, you should get some kind of advancement value for survival because you've done it in a manner as to not die. It's that whole, that which does not kill me makes me stronger thing that RPGs really need.

There's a difference between that and using CR, where the threat is based on the situation rather than the individual creatures.

Well, one of my favourite parts of Geneforge was speculating about the nature of Shaper society. I've been in a number of interesting conversations with you and others about it, and the mystery really added to Geneforge itself. I'd have to say that that kind of intellectual stimulation was one of the reasons I liked Geneforge to begin with, and, with Geneforge placed in the middle of the above mystery, I'm kinda afraid that it will shatter the idea of the enigmatic Shaper society.
I would really have preferred if it were set on a frontier area, or another barred isle, because then, there's the oppurtunity to leave the Shapers as they are best, an enigma.

But, if Geneforge 2 lacked anything new about Shaper society, there would be no new discussions, would there? I doubt Geneforge 2 will have a complete guide to Shaper politics in it, but I'm sure it'll offer new things and insights in to what makes them tick or not.

 

[Section8]

And Saint, Geneforge-style XP schemes work best, I think. It lets you keep the XP numbers relatively small and easy to calculate, as opposed to the often astronomical experience totals you often see in games like AD&D.

I like the idea of scalable XP systems, but like most people have already said they don't really work with groups. However, in a game where there are discrete combat/non-combat states, group XP is more viable. It's still going to need some fairly bloated algorithms and creative design to determine what constitutes a challenging group battle as opposed to killing a bunch of guys one by one without exiting combat mode. The simplest means I can think of would be to tally the maximum number of enemies who make attacks on a single player character or ally in a single round.

 

[Spazmo]

Saint: of course, the scalable XP system would have to be slightly better designed than that of Geneforge: as you said, if there's a threat, there should be a reward. But if done right, it works great.