Geneforge 2 - whadda want

[Crazy Tuvok]

Hey all - first post (tho I recgonize many here from the old FO boards and elsewhere) so I figured might as well make it a new topic.
So what would you like to see in Geneforge 2? I'd like the following:
(1) fix the damn XP system. As St P points out in his review this is a bit fubar'd. I understand the rationale for not giving me experience for a turret at level 10 but damn 3 or 4 can easily wipe the floor with my party at that level or at least make a tough fight and I want XP for it dammit!
(2) make Leadership more useful. I can count on nearly one hand the amount of times it is useful. High Leadership should also offset creations fleeing, not just their INT. Altho a low INT creation should be harder to control no matter the Leadership score. Also Leadership should either have more impact on the gameworld or more skills should be introduced. The only real problem I have with the game is that it is not all that viable to play the smooth-talking diplomat type.
(3) this may be asking for more of the same but I would love even more books to read, more dialogue and ways to discover the history of the world. Personally I loved the amount of reading in PS:T and would like more games to emulate the model. The world Mr. Vogel has created is so damn cool I want to explore it's history and peoples even more.
Many of these things are exactly what St P recognizes in his review but thought I'd throw them out there for discussion nonetheless.
Well those are the ones off the top of my head. Let no one mistake this thread as a critcism of Geneforge - the game is simply fantastic. I'd like to personally thank St. P for turning me onto this with his review and his posts on it. This is the way CRPGs are supposed to be (well this way and anyway Tim Cain makes them).

Peace.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Hey all - first post (tho I recgonize many here from the old FO boards and elsewhere) so I figured might as well make it a new topic.
So what would you like to see in Geneforge 2? I'd like the following:
(1) fix the damn XP system. As St P points out in his review this is a bit fubar'd. I understand the rationale for not giving me experience for a turret at level 10 but damn 3 or 4 can easily wipe the floor with my party at that level or at least make a tough fight and I want XP for it dammit!

I agree. Instead of XP per monster, it really should be per grouping. A lone turret isn't going to do anything to me at mid-level, but a group of four of them can waste me fast.

(2) make Leadership more useful. I can count on nearly one hand the amount of times it is useful. High Leadership should also offset creations fleeing, not just their INT. Altho a low INT creation should be harder to control no matter the Leadership score. Also Leadership should either have more impact on the gameworld or more skills should be introduced. The only real problem I have with the game is that it is not all that viable to play the smooth-talking diplomat type.

I agree here also. Leadership should give more speech options, like it does in the event of a few of the NPCs. I think it might also affect the factions and how they see you. If it doesn't, that would be a nice addition as well.

I agree on the creation thing, too. A high leadership should be able to offset a creature's low intelligence in some way. If not just a default modifier, make it a range effect. If a creature is in Leadership/2 squares of the shaper, then he won't freak.

I think the BIG THING that would make Leadership better, though, is more towns! I really wish there were more town locations up north, and places to pick up quests similar to those down south.

(3) this may be asking for more of the same but I would love even more books to read, more dialogue and ways to discover the history of the world. Personally I loved the amount of reading in PS:T and would like more games to emulate the model. The world Mr. Vogel has created is so damn cool I want to explore it's history and peoples even more.

About the main fault I'd have with PS:T;s dialogue is that it was too much reading without enough interaction. Too much of PS:T's dialogue seemed like you were reading a book using UNIX's more program. There'd be a long bit of speech from an NPC followed by the options to have more or quit, basically. I'd like more than that in dialogue, I'd like a word in edgewise here and there.

Well those are the ones off the top of my head. Let no one mistake this thread as a critcism of Geneforge - the game is simply fantastic. I'd like to personally thank St. P for turning me onto this with his review and his posts on it. This is the way CRPGs are supposed to be (well this way and anyway Tim Cain makes them).

I agree. Jeff Vogel and Tim Cain(and crew) are probably the two best in the business.

Other things I'd like to see in addition to the above:

1.) Batons aren't based on type, but are based on functionality. Make the thorns just ammo and the Batons actually do different things. Have burst baton, a scatter gun baton, a short range baton, sniper baton, and so on.

2.) Interface based reload for batons. This plus #1 would make batons a hell of a lot more fun to use than they were in Geneforge.

3.) Noncombat creature types, like living tool beasts that can help pick locks. Healing beasts would be nice also. They don't fight, but act in support roles.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

Yup baton reloading would be *tremendously* helpful. Batons are a pain to use tho I find I use them all the time. It is irritating to waste APs to reload. Very cool idea about the burst baton et al. Plugging some Sholai with a burst of Submission thorns....

As far as PS:T goes I guess what I meant is how much you can learn about the Planes, Sigil etc thru conversation. I also really liked being able to click on nearly anything and get a brief description, a feature I thought was implemented in PS:T even better than in FO.

Like the idea of non-combat creations. A healing Vlish seems perfectly compatible with the gameworld.

I don't mind the absence of Northern towns especially considering what else is up there it makes some sense. Still more or bigger towns would be nice.

Another thing I would like would be a more configurable formation feature. As it is you can move yourself throughout the formation but not your creations - they are in order of creation date. Now the first creation (a Fyora) is generally not who I want taking point. There are a number of pure melee types I would prefer in front. This is especially irritating when comabt erupts suddenly upon opening a door and the doorway is blocked by my Fyora -which is essentially a range based fighter. So my choices are not attack at all the first round and move the Fyora or have my melee creation sit there pretty much useless. I'd like to be able to configure the formation more.
Altho part of this is that I cannot bear to have my first creation die - I have named her, nurtured her and kept her with me the whole game and refuse to let her die. Kinda funny all the work that Bioware, e.g. puts into NPCs and I care more about my creations than I do about almost any NPC I have ever encountered (except of course Dogmeat).

Peace.

 

[protobob]

Well I'm still playing Geneforge (about 17 hours so far), so I can't comment on the entire game yet.

I want even more dialogue/interaction in Geneforge 2. Maybe a tad bit less combat. I think consolidating some of the item types would help as well. As it is there is so much stuff, and I use so little of it, grin. I've got huge piles of loot laying in one of the towns where I drop stuff off to get my weight down between explorations (those living tools are heavy). Add to that I have never ever actually bought anything from a merchant, I just sell (well, besides the special deals some of them had). So maybe theres a bit too much loot laying around.

Back to my first point, it seems like once you've met everyone and done the initial quests, they don't really have much new to say. That probably goes along with making leadership more usefull in the mid-game.

I'm really enjoying this game.

 

[Deathy]

I want creations to be more personalised.
They pretty much give of the feel of pets, so things like customising their appearance and abilities to suit the Shaper would be a welcome addition.

Something like a Clawbug with the head of a Fyora that spits out acid at multiple targets would be a creation that I could get attached to.
Or maybe some really outlandish creations. If you can imagine it, you should be able to create it, assuming your character is powerful enough.

 

[Ibbz]

Anyone realise that one of Jeff Vogel's favourite games is Baldurs Gate 2 ? :D

RPGDot: Pease tell our readers your favourite role playing games. What kind of
game are you playing at the moment?
Jeff: Ultima IV and V. Baldur's Gate II. Planescape: Torment. I just finished
American McGee's Alice.

As for Geneforge 2, i hope he has less areas full of monsters that you have to clean out and more towns {Or area's which are interesting to explore and where your not in combat 3/4 of the time}!

 

[Walks with the Snails]

I guess I didn't get that attached to my creations. They were basically just cannon fodder. I realize some people like naming them and keeping them the whole game, but really it seemed a bit wasteful to me when my shaping skill usually outpaced my creations' level-ups, so I usually just made new ones when I levelled up. It would be nice to have the option to make creations that don't get experience so you can have it all to yourself, then send them to their doom in waves like they were intended to be. :twisted:

Also, I thought the skill system really over-emphasized specialization when it came to creations. It could get to be really expensive if you wanted more than one type of creation. The obvious solution was just to buy only fire shaping, but how much fun is that? I'd rather just have one general skill for shaping, since it wasn't as useful to buy up all the shaping skills as the combat and magic ones, which benefitted from casting a broader net.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

I agree that there should either be less combat or make it easier thru character development to avoid combat. The best part of the game for me was coming across some abandoned Shaper facilty and discovering what happened and what the facility was. Places like the workshops and labs were just plain cool.
I also wouldn't mind if combat were a bit more sophisticated. Usually combat is either me and my creations completely kicking ass or getting our asses kicked. One of the best fights in the game is the Patrolled Dell with its heavily guarded bridge. Between the Sholai wizard, the Augmented Sholai and the turrets it took some real tactics (and several reloads) to beat them.
Of course I could have just avoided it altogether but as a Shaper I'll be damned if I will be told where to go and not go :wink:

 

[protobob]

I guess I didn't get that attached to my creations. They were basically just cannon fodder . . . The obvious solution was just to buy only fire shaping, but how much fun is that? I'd rather just have one general skill for shaping, since it wasn't as useful to buy up all the shaping skills as the combat and magic ones, which benefitted from casting a broader net.

At first I was somewhat protective of my creations, but once I started putting points in the shaper skills I just started letting them be cannon fodder. The only thing I feel when my battle alpha dies is fear, grin.

Maybe I'm missing out on the 'build of the day,' but I've pretty much been ignoring the fire shaping skill and putting points in magic and battle shaping. My favorite load out is 2-4 searing artila and a battle alpha and/or clawbug up front.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

I generally think of some of my creations as cannon fodder (or mine deactivators) except for my first ( a Fyora). Altho as Shaping improves creations become more powerful right from creation, there is a great advantage to keeping one throughout the whole game as they become quite powerful. My first creation is now almost maxed out in all stats with almost the entire northern half of the island left to explore. Also I admit to having some emotional attachment as well as she has been a boon companion since I landed on Sucia. I only name those who are able to stay alive long enough to earn it, which needless to say is not too many.

I like the idea posted above about the mix and match creations tho I think this should be restricted to higher levels. Assuming in GF2 you start at level 1 a novice shaper should only be able to create standard beasties as it would take a great deal more power and experience to create an entirely new creation.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

By putting all the points in fire shaping, you wind up with higher level creations for the same amount of points. Since all the fire creations have ranged and melee attacks, I didn't see much need for anything else. I just didn't see getting as much bang for the buck by buying battle and magic shaping, fire covered all the bases.

 

[MF]

Anyone realise that one of Jeff Vogel's favourite games is Baldurs Gate 2 ? :D

RPGDot: Pease tell our readers your favourite role playing games. What kind of
game are you playing at the moment?
Jeff: Ultima IV and V. Baldur's Gate II. Planescape: Torment. I just finished
American McGee's Alice.

As for Geneforge 2, i hope he has less areas full of monsters that you have to clean out and more towns {Or area's which are interesting to explore and where your not in combat 3/4 of the time}!

Guy must have been on crack.Alice is not an RPG, it's an FPS adventure with nice cinematic effects. (I'm not mentioning BG2. No. I'm not. I just have.)

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I agree that there should either be less combat or make it easier thru character development to avoid combat. The best part of the game for me was coming across some abandoned Shaper facilty and discovering what happened and what the facility was. Places like the workshops and labs were just plain cool.

I agree. This is the part I liked the most because it showed that there was a hell of a lot of thought put in to the game's world. It felt like the island was designed with functionality in mind first, and then Vogel progressed it to something that went wrong after years of neglect.

I also wouldn't mind if combat were a bit more sophisticated. Usually combat is either me and my creations completely kicking ass or getting our asses kicked. One of the best fights in the game is the Patrolled Dell with its heavily guarded bridge. Between the Sholai wizard, the Augmented Sholai and the turrets it took some real tactics (and several reloads) to beat them.

Dealing with the pylons in the main lab wasn't bad either.

 

[protobob]

By putting all the points in fire shaping, you wind up with higher level creations for the same amount of points. Since all the fire creations have ranged and melee attacks, I didn't see much need for anything else. I just didn't see getting as much bang for the buck by buying battle and magic shaping, fire covered all the bases.

Isn't the fire skill more expensive (4 vs. 3 for a shaper) than the other two? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. If so it seems that Jeff realized that the fire was better so he raised the price. Or maybe I'm just making this all up. Hmm.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Yes, but you buy 1 level of fire shaping for 4 points and one level of battle shaping and magic shaping for 6 points. If you expect to make different types of troops for melee and ranged, they're either going to be lower-level or you're going to have spent a lot more points.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Anyone realise that one of Jeff Vogel's favourite games is Baldurs Gate 2 ? :D

RPGDot: Pease tell our readers your favourite role playing games. What kind of
game are you playing at the moment?
Jeff: Ultima IV and V. Baldur's Gate II. Planescape: Torment. I just finished
American McGee's Alice.

As for Geneforge 2, i hope he has less areas full of monsters that you have to clean out and more towns {Or area's which are interesting to explore and where your not in combat 3/4 of the time}!

Oh, for shame!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yes, but you buy 1 level of fire shaping for 4 points and one level of battle shaping and magic shaping for 6 points. If you expect to make different types of troops for melee and ranged, they're either going to be lower-level or you're going to have spent a lot more points.

You know, I'd actually prefer Geneforge 2 to go classless, but in such a manner that you could build the classes from the previous game. If Jeff implimented Advantages and Disadvantages similar to Avernum but designed for Geneforge's setting, then you could easily be able to make a Shaper class with something like Greater Shaping Ability combined with Lesser Fighting Ability, which would balance each other out in terms of experience bonus/restriction.

 

[Peacedog]

So what would you like to see in Geneforge 2? I'd like the following:

I beta tested Geneforge, and I've seen some suggestions in this thread I know I made, and I got the feeling some other testers made. Who knows what Vogel will do, but from previous experience (I also beta tested all 3 Avernums) he seems to listen to his testers.

(1) fix the damn XP system.

The combat could be quirky, and the example you provide is excellent idea of how. I personally liked the combat, but situations like this did frustrate me, and I know I brought it up on a couple of occasions. Turrets were the bane of my existence even after I got really powerful. Did you try Avernum 3 yet? He changed the game system in it pretty significantly from Avernums 1 and 2. It looks the same on the surface, but many internal calculations are done differently. I wonder if this means there will be changes for Geneforge.

(2) make Leadership more useful. I can count on nearly one hand the amount of times it is useful.

I actually recall more than that, but I think most of the times involved low leadership scores, so that a medium investment could end up with you missing that it was working. One thing I like from recent IE games (and Neverwinter Nights) is when they display what skill is being used when it is used in dialogue (as in: [persuasion]: blah blah blah)/.

The suggestion you have about tying it into creatures fleeing ties in with my complaint about creations (well, one of my two). After dumping lots of points into, say, battle creations, and getting all sorts of items that boosted the stats of creations, I still had to put 2 points into intelligence. That really made no sense to me. I think the whole creation thing could use some tweaking. I like the foundation, but I think it needs work.

(3) this may be asking for more of the same but I would love even more books to read, more dialogue and ways to discover the history of the world.

Given that it is a one man operation, I think expecting too much more here is a mistake. Vogel is often saying how he doesn't want people to sit down and have to read books when they play his games. He definately doesn't try to over do that stuff. Though I find his games to be far more atmospheric than most "big" titles. Geneforge especially so.

I'm inclined to call Geneforge his best game ever now, where it used to be Nethergate.

I think the BIG THING that would make Leadership better, though, is more towns! I really wish there were more town locations up north, and places to pick up quests similar to those down south.

Saint_proverbius, I'd actually disagree with you here. I think the number of settlements/towns/groups on the island was deliberately low, to fit the theme: a supposedly abandoned island that is not what it seems. I'd have liked more as a general rule, but I think they would have been out of place. Perhaps more elaborate towns, but I chalk that up to it being just one person, and Jeff's personal philosphy. That said, I hope the sequel does feature more populated areas where you get a chance to interact with the locals (and they to react to whatever it is you are getting yourself into).

I'd prefer the inclusion of some sort of background stuff similar to the Avernums as well. I wonder if he will keep the classes or not (I assume he will, but I guess we'll find out soon enough).

1.) Batons aren't based on type, but are based on functionality. Make the thorns just ammo and the Batons actually do different things. Have burst baton, a scatter gun baton, a short range baton, sniper baton, and so on.

It will be interesting to see what he does there. I personally never used them though some of the nicer ones seemed useful; I found it easier to use creations, spells, or buff up and run to the monster in a situation required them (mostly when I was trying to deal with turrets or other ranged beasties). Also like Tuvok, I was annoyed by the reload thing.

I personally would have liked to see where a higher level baton could use lower level ammo, and that the effect would be greater than using a stinkier baton, but not the full power of the baton. That would require some reworking, but I think it makes more sense. A more easy means to reload them would also be nice, but I'm guessing he will add that.

That's an interesting baton suggestion, though. You should email it to him

3.) Noncombat creature types, like living tool beasts that can help pick locks. Healing beasts would be nice also. They don't fight, but act in support roles.

My other problem with creations was there wasn't quite enough variety I felt. This would help. Trying to give each creation some very unique features (or more, in some cases) would be nice.

My biggest want for Geneforge 2 would be more scenarios where you have multiple options to accomplish something. Hmmm, I'm getting a yearning to play again.

Also, why are people saying that someone thinks Alice is a RPG (or CRPG, because I think that's what most people assume when someone asks "what RPGs are you playing?", even though CRPG and RPG are different). The interview block makes it clear it asks for his favorite RPGs, and what game he is playing currently. Two distinctly separate things.

 

[murraysku]

(2) make Leadership more useful. I can count on nearly one hand the amount of times it is useful. High Leadership should also offset creations fleeing, not just their INT. Altho a low INT creation should be harder to control no matter the Leadership score. Also Leadership should either have more impact on the gameworld or more skills should be introduced. The only real problem I have with the game is that it is not all that viable to play the smooth-talking diplomat type.

And with leadership, it'd be great if all the other stats had a much greater effect than in combat or puzzle-solving. For instance, a highly intelligent character should be able to argue better than a stupid character, while a stronger character would probably be more effective at delivering threats. (I.e., a highly intelligent Shaper might be more quick to the point out the inconistency of the Awakened's treatment of the servant mind). Aside from the-odd- leveling/XP system, the only thing I could have wished for more in the original Geneforge was more dialogue options. Not that I'm complaining-it was still leaps and bounds above just about every other game on the market.

Beyond dialogue, stats could have other implications as well. For instance, if when coming upon some sort of ruin/abandoned facility/other type of mystery, a high intelligence character may be able to deduce something or realize the importance of an object that an less perceptive/intelligent character would not. Or perhaps a character with high mechanics skill could realize the purpose of some long lost machine without having to be told by another character or finding instructions in an abandoned tome.

And on a side note, it really does show how moronic the mainstream gaming media is when Neverwinter Nights gets heaped with awards and accolades despite being a 50 man POS while one guy in his garage can make the best RPG in years, PERIOD, shareware or commercial. Not unlike the Grammy's

P.S. I hope I quoted right-I have almost no experience with ubb or any other type of message board.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Saint_proverbius, I'd actually disagree with you here. I think the number of settlements/towns/groups on the island was deliberately low, to fit the theme: a supposedly abandoned island that is not what it seems. I'd have liked more as a general rule, but I think they would have been out of place. Perhaps more elaborate towns, but I chalk that up to it being just one person, and Jeff's personal philosphy. That said, I hope the sequel does feature more populated areas where you get a chance to interact with the locals (and they to react to whatever it is you are getting yourself into).

Well, there were towns of intelligent rogues in the north, but they weren't that fleshed out. There was the town controlled by the Servant Mind, can't remember it's name, but that could have been scripted to behave more like the servile faction towns. Also, there was the town of Battle Alphas which could have been more fleshed out.

There were towns up north, it's just they needed more things to do in them.

It will be interesting to see what he does there. I personally never used them though some of the nicer ones seemed useful; I found it easier to use creations, spells, or buff up and run to the monster in a situation required them (mostly when I was trying to deal with turrets or other ranged beasties). Also like Tuvok, I was annoyed by the reload thing.

The problem with batons is that they are annoying to use. If they did more and were easier to use, a la "reload", then people would probably use them more. There were a lot of complaints on the forum about how batons were done.

That's an interesting baton suggestion, though. You should email it to him

I posted it on the Geneforge forum a long time ago.