Game News Geneforge 5: Because 4 just isn't enough

[Higher Game]

Geneforge 1-3 are great, and got progressively more complex and interesting, but I think 4 is kind of a simplified 3 for more casual audiences, though still good. 5 ought to be really EPIC, since it's the final game of the series, which is admittedly a bit long in the tooth now.

And man, the first 3 Avernums look really aged, let alone Exile. I'd actually go as far as to say Avernum 4-6 should have been given new names, since it's as much a change as from Exile --> Avernum with its new engine.

So, I'd actually say Geneforge is truly the longest Vogel series. It probably should have been just 3 games, as with all his others, but he does have bills to pay. :wink: He does make good dungeon crawlers, but they're not really great as RPGs, and as I've said before, he's more of a skilled craftsman than an artist. I mean that on many levels.

 

[Sodomy]

@Elwro- You're forgetting the Sholia/Tulleogolites.

 

[Zhirzzh]

@Elwro- You're forgetting the Sholia/Tulleogolites.

But, they aren't really a FACTION, because they don't care what your relationship with the other factions is (well, Trajkov (sp) likes the Takers).

 

[OSK]

Damn. I still have to play 2, 3 and 4.

Geneforge is a solid game and I had a lot of fun with it. A game having nice choices & consequences and enjoyable turn-based combat is a winner in my book.

 

[Lurkar]

I liked 4 better then 3 personally, though 2 and 1 are still my two favorites for different reasons.

That said, I know I'll most likely buy this. I've been loving the Geneforge series, whereas I dunno if I even finished Avernum 5.

 

[Amasius]

G1 > G2 > G4 > G3

Fuck the haters. Geneforge isn't a JRPG. Is there a better Indie RPG series out there yet? Vogels writing is simple and the story is without fancy turns and twists but always decent and often pretty good. If you want a shiny RPG have fun with Fallout 3.

 

[Trash]

I just would like to see Vogel do something different in the storytelling department. Something a bit more epic, a bit grander. Why not involve the player in large scale combat, have places being destroyed after you have visited, have actions being shown in the game itself as having far reachig consequences?

The engine could handle it, but Vogel's games are always a linear path. The game starts in a starter town and from there you travel from area to area untill the final one where you defeat the big foozle. It's something that always bothered me about his games, even though I like them for a lot of other reasons.

I'd love to see him do something a bit different, but I guess he sticks to what he knows.

 

[Jasede]

If you want a shiny RPG have fun with Fallout 3.

I don't understand this mentality at all. Don't you think there can be a middle-ground? People who like good writing (something Geneforge doesn't have) and fun gameplay as well as a presentation that doesn't drag the game down?

Don't get me wrong, Geneforge is a pretty average, maybe even decent game (not as fun as Eschalon though, by any stretch) - but the presentation drags it down to at least awful, especially the laziness that oozes from Vogel. Was it that impossible to draw some cleaner tiles? Some less ugly and hideous interface? No.

Please, be reasonable: just because someone doesn't want to force himself to the eye-raping graphics of a Jeff Vogel game doesn't mean he suddenly likes retarded and stupid games like Oblivion or Fallout 3. Myself, I like games where everything has a degree of love in it - writing, art, graphics, music - if they form a harmonic whole I am happy. Games that do that and which I play regularly are things like KOTOR 2, PS:T, Thief, Terra Nova, Ultima Underworld, Lands of Lore... - it's plain unreasonable to say that just because someone values good art - which a Vogel game -never- has - that means he suddenly likes shiny graphics (not to mention that shiny graphics today often have awful art, see Oblivion).

Eschalon 1 is a good example: that game has much better art than Vogel's game. I can not forgive this Vogel guy for not at least trying to make his games somewhat visually appealing. The only excuse is laziness - he should have, after so many games, the time and money to fix this. He does not.

Graphics don't matter - but decent art design does. I'll tell you what - Jeff Vogel would be -much- better off making his games ASCII based - that way his awful, awful art and terrible sprites wouldn't bother anyone and people like me could actually play it. Clean ASCII is ten times more beautiful than Jeff's hideous games; and ADOM looked better than a lot of non-ASCII games.

 

[Amasius]

If you want a shiny RPG have fun with Fallout 3.

I don't understand this mentality at all. Don't you think there can be a middle-ground? People who like good writing (something Geneforge doesn't have) and fun gameplay as well as a presentation that doesn't drag the game down?

Don't get me wrong, Geneforge is a pretty average, maybe even decent game (not as fun as Eschalon though, by any stretch) - but the presentation drags it down to at least awful, especially the laziness that oozes from Vogel. Was it that impossible to draw some cleaner tiles? Some less ugly and hideous interface? No.

Please, be reasonable: just because someone doesn't want to force himself to the eye-raping graphics of a Jeff Vogel game doesn't mean he suddenly likes retarded and stupid games like Oblivion or Fallout 3. Myself, I like games where everything has a degree of love in it - writing, art, graphics, music - if they form a harmonic whole I am happy. Games that do that and which I play regularly are things like KOTOR 2, PS:T, Thief, Terra Nova, Ultima Underworld, Lands of Lore... - it's plain unreasonable to say that just because someone values good art - which a Vogel game -never- has - that means he suddenly likes shiny graphics (not to mention that shiny graphics today often have awful art, see Oblivion).

Eschalon 1 is a good example: that game has much better art than Vogel's game. I can not forgive this Vogel guy for not at least trying to make his games somewhat visually appealing. The only excuse is laziness - he should have, after so many games, the time and money to fix this. He does not.

Graphics don't matter - but decent art design does. I'll tell you what - Jeff Vogel would be -much- better off making his games ASCII based - that way his awful, awful art and terrible sprites wouldn't bother anyone and people like me could actually play it. Clean ASCII is ten times more beautiful than Jeff's hideous games; and ADOM looked better than a lot of non-ASCII games.

Eh? Wasn't it obvious that I was exaggerating?

Vogels games are ugly not because he is lazy - that's ridiculous - but because he isn't willing to afford an expensive artist. He's avoiding risks by keeping his costs low and he survives - there aren't many game companies out there who are that long in business. He hasn't any artistic talent but he is a good programmer (I doubt that I have ever played any games with less bugs except Tetris and Pacman.) and a good writer. Sure, he isn't the second coming of MCA but he while he doesn't tell an epic story he creates a believable, atmospheric world and that's more than you can find in most games.

You blame Spiderwebs games for being ugly and than you praise Eschalon because you like "games where everything has a degree of love in it"? Uh, Eschalons writing (and there wasn't much of it) was hardly as good as Vogels. I liked Eschalon but overall Genefore is by far the better RPG (by the Codex definition). The ugly graphics in Spiderweb games don't bother me because after some time in his games I totally forget the visuals. That's what I call immersion.

 

[Jasede]

I don't know, I think their writing was about the same, but Geneforge had a whole lot more of it. Look, I'm not meaning to argue - I'm sure somewhere in Vogel's games there's a good RPG, but come now! You say he can't afford an artist - I bet if you give me a week and a website I can find people wanting to draw sprites for his game for free, or a very, very small fee. I have no idea about indy development but I can't imagine it's that hard.

I like what Jeff does - make decent, old RPGs - but can't he at least invest a tiny bit of his profits to strive to make his newest game a little bit more accessible than his last? He's denying himself profit just by the sheery clunkiness and ugliness of his games - if they looked just a little bit friendlier, had a better interface he could easily sell more games and get even more money. It'd be a worthwhile investment.

 

[Trash]

I believe I once read that he's always on the brink of bankrupcy. So I don't think he's making a fortune of it.

He's already using quite a good artist. Look at the art at places like the title screen, the traits and character portraits. These are generally quite good. It just seems that the sprites don't get the same treatment. Dunno why.

 

[Amasius]

I don't know, I think their writing was about the same, but Geneforge had a whole lot more of it. Look, I'm not meaning to argue - I'm sure somewhere in Vogel's games there's a good RPG, but come now! You say he can't afford an artist - I bet if you give me a week and a website I can find people wanting to draw sprites for his game for free, or a very, very small fee. I have no idea about indy development but I can't imagine it's that hard.

I like what Jeff does - make decent, old RPGs - but can't he at least invest a tiny bit of his profits to strive to make his newest game a little bit more accessible than his last? He's denying himself profit just by the sheery clunkiness and ugliness of his games - if they looked just a little bit friendlier, had a better interface he could easily sell more games and get even more money. It'd be a worthwhile investment.

Oh my. Maybe you could find someone who does better graphics - that wouldn't take much - but good graphics for free or almost free? Which capable artist would waste his talents for nothing when he can earn the money he's worth? Folks like you would still whine if the graphics are just slightly better and good artists are expensive.

You've mentioned above KOTOR 2, PS:T, Thief, Terra Nova, Ultima Underworld, Lands of Lore - all those games had a big budged for the visuals. That's nothing a little Indie can afford and most developers of these games are nonetheless out of business now, so stop dreaming.

 

[Niektory]

Graphics don't matter - but decent art design does. I'll tell you what - Jeff Vogel would be -much- better off making his games ASCII based - that way his awful, awful art and terrible sprites wouldn't bother anyone and people like me could actually play it. Clean ASCII is ten times more beautiful than Jeff's hideous games; and ADOM looked better than a lot of non-ASCII games.

Yes, because looking up every fucking symbol you come across is so fun. Geneforge graphics aren't pretty but they're functional - I don't remember ever having problems telling what's going on on the screen. I think the graphics would have to improve a lot to convert any significant amount of people, I'd rather have him spend his time improving the gameplay.

 

[Elwro]

I liked Eschalon but overall Genefore is by far the better RPG (by the Codex definition). The ugly graphics in Spiderweb games don't bother me because after some time in his games I totally forget the visuals. That's what I call immersion.

I concur, after having played (and finished) both games. Eschalon's fun and the devs certainly have potential. But Geneforge is better in most of the RPG-wise important areas: it has more meaningful choices, better dialogue (it's written in good English and has e.g. Leadership and Luck influencing the optrions), a more interesting setting and plot, while also boasting engaging, turn-based combat (at least I found it engaging, while playing a Shaper). I moved to the Avernum series so I don't know if the next parts of the Geneforge saga aren't too similar to the initial title, though.

 

[Zhirzzh]

2 is the same but larger, with one more faction (and Obeyers replaced with Shapers), more sophisticated moral choices (The fact that the Awakened can only lead to an eternal war is pointed out), and with the canisters restricting dialog choices. It's a better game, but most people (including me) liked the first game better, because the setting was still new.

The 3rd game had real issues. C&C on one island doesn't really change the others until the endgame; there are only two factions; Rebels have to pretend to be Shapers until the end of the game.

I haven't played 4th yet, I hear it's better than third though.

 

[Chork]

I just hope the Barzites are back.