Review GiN: KOTOR 2 combat is cleverly designed TB

[LlamaGod]

I've seen Game Industry News before and it has to be one of the worst websites i've ever seen.

It's like a wanna-be GameSpy, so not only do you have the moronic mainstream mindset, but you also have the extra aspiration to be so.

 

[Araanor]

Would it be turnbased if one gave all the orders to the PCs and then pressed a "play" or "execute" or "whatever" button to let the PCs do their turn simultaneously until pausing to make for another turn of action-giving.

That's phase-based.

 

[Shinan]

But on the other hand it is a system that many PnPs try to emulate so that the players have to choose what to do before the turn starts. (With a bunch of exceptions mostly having to do with interrupted and forced defensive actions)

pnps don't "emulate" turn-based. they ARE turn-based by necessity. it has nothing to do with when you choose the actions, but everything to do with how they are executed.

taks[/quote]
nonono. What I said was that PnPs (some. There are almost as many systems as there are... systems... I know at least two PnPs that actually have Real Time Combat... One of them's a comedy game and the other is just... disturbing. 8^)) emulate real-time by using something that resembles real-time with pause more than turn-based a la Fallout. Not only in interrupts and shots of opportunity but in a lot of other things as well. So that, in the end, the turns are basically executed simultaneously instead of being one-at-a-time like you said was the requirement for real turn-based.

I can imagine how a real time board game would be played:

Players ram their chess pieces around on the board smashing at each others hands. The game ends with a stalemate when one of them clocks the other.

Steve Jackson Games actually have some rather interesting real-time board games. And I think Cheapass Games has some too.

 

[DorrieB]

Hi. I just thought I'd mention, in defense of reviewers, that the KOTOR2 Manual itself claims that the game has 'Real-Time Turn-Based' combat. It's rather a self-contradictory thing to claim (in a zen way, maybe? Like the 'sound of silence' or 'the wisdom of ignorance'?) but if you're writing a review, and the game manual says something, you can maybe be forgiven for thinking you're on solid ground?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Hi. I just thought I'd mention, in defense of reviewers, that the KOTOR2 Manual itself claims that the game has 'Real-Time Turn-Based' combat. It's rather a self-contradictory thing to claim (in a zen way, maybe? Like the 'sound of silence' or 'the wisdom of ignorance'?) but if you're writing a review, and the game manual says something, you can maybe be forgiven for thinking you're on solid ground?

That's why playing the games themselves should be required for a game reviewer, instead of just browsing through the manual and write exactly what is there but in his own words. The "Real-time Turn-Based" line alone already is a glaring contradiction, but playing the game would actually dispel any remaining doubts (I'm going on the principle that people can tell the difference between individual, sequenced actions as opposed to simultaneous actions, but this may be too much for me to hope).

 

[DemonKing]

The combat in KOTOR2 sucks...once you get any of the mega powers that affect more than one opponent you'll never be challenged again. It's even worse than KOTOR where I had a few challenging fights up until the point I discovered Force Wave....

Also I hate how you can't force your entire group to move in combat, which means often your NPCs will be off somewhere getting slaughtered by themselves while you're trying to do something else. Although, I haven't quite had as many problems so far as I did in the original with the respawning hordes on the Star Forge.

 

[Claw]

nonono. What I said was that PnPs (...) emulate real-time by using something that resembles real-time with pause more than turn-based a la Fallout. Not only in interrupts and shots of opportunity but in a lot of other things as well.

Interrupts and shots of opportunity aren't unknown to turnbased games, and it's fairly self-evident why it doesn't contradict their turnbased nature. An interrupt, as the name implies, interrupts one participant's turn and gives the interrupting participant an extra turn.

So that, in the end, the turns are basically executed simultaneously instead of being one-at-a-time like you said was the requirement for real turn-based.

Can to combatants shoot each other simultanously?

 

[Shinan]

Interrupts and shots of opportunity aren't unknown to turnbased games, and it's fairly self-evident why it doesn't contradict their turnbased nature. An interrupt, as the name implies, interrupts one participant's turn and gives the interrupting participant an extra turn.

That's why I said not only, because those are fairly standard in any kind of turn-based system.

So that, in the end, the turns are basically executed simultaneously instead of being one-at-a-time like you said was the requirement for real turn-based.

Can to combatants shoot each other simultanously?

They almost can. It's hard enough to do it for real so it doesn't happen very often. More often two people fight in close combat at the same time something that also is handled in...

You know the more I think about it the more they are exactly the same anyway and my point seem to be that there is no point. Since... Well there's always some amount of initiative or speed that affects it so that even in real life no two actions take place in the same time. The only real difference is that movement is simultaneous in a lot of PnPs, which is probably the case in CRPGs too if you just throw in a bit of the imagination used in PnPs.

Two people shoot at each other at the same time when their initiative is the same. Apart from that there's usually only the responsive actions (shoot back/find cover/stand and get shot at) left, and they are just another kind of interrupt.

Shit. So it wasn't as similar to real-time with pause as I first thought. It just looks that way 8^) Three posts for no reason whatsoever. I'll go back to lurking now.

 

[Claw]

Three posts for no reason whatsoever. I'll go back to lurking now.

I know the feeling.

 

[theverybigslayer]

@aboyd

Sadly, it is terribly inaccurate, and no, the system in both KOTOR games has nothing to do with TURN-based combat. The key word would be TURN, not queued action. In many RTS you can issue queued orders and commands, yet nobody thinks that such games are turn-based.

Both KOTOR games are TURN-based. Just they are very cleverly disguised, so cleverly that we will never find the turn-based gameplay in these games and we have to play in real-time with pause. Cannot you understand?

 

[Killzig]

Dear RPG Codex,

Please stop reporting on KOTOR2. The game has been released and thoroughly fellated by the gaming media. Unless there's a patch or someone discovers a way to put the much ballyhooed RPG elements into the game please don't mention it on the front page again.

Thanks,

Bored in Florida.

 

[Spazmo]

Dear Bored in Florida,

Eat a dick. Yes, the gaming press has massively fellated KOTOR2, which is exactly why I'd say we need to post about it to remind people about how thoroughly average it is in every respect. Furthermore, we're still waiting on that Project: Phoenix deal you told us would be really cool a while ago, so until your buddy EvoG comes along to save the RPG genre, we're stuck reporting on avatars of mediocrity like KOTOR2.

Thanks,

The RPG Codex.

 

[Stark]

Dear Bored in Florida,

Eat a dick.

they sell dicks in Florida?

 

[Fez]

Yes.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

And you would know, how?

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I would like to use this double post as an opportunity to practice my mad editing skillz.

 

[Fez]

I bought one. Any other questions, smartarse?

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Well, I was going to ask what you did with it, but I decided I did not need to know this info.

 

[Fez]

A wise choice. I have photos. Taken at strange angles.

 

[Stark]

which did you get? the straw berry one or the sour lemon one? and it must be very unfilling. i heard those sold in Florida are all very small.

 

[Fez]

Although always tempting to go with the well advertised and known branded products, I already heard about the negative reviews beforehand, so I was careful and shopped around and found an indie retailer who could sell me much higher quality products and with better personal service. I bought the black mambo, it's very reliable and always popular at parties, so there is plenty for everyone. I've got a three year on-site servicing policy with the purchase too, well worth the extra cost, I feel.

I found the magazines "Penis Shopper" and "What Dick?" to be very good buyer's guides.

The good folk at PNS CodexPutting the "lead" back in your pencil) were a big help too.

 

[Shagnak]

My penis i s hard. I just hought I'd menton that.

Its St PAtricks day and Im fucked off my nut.

PLwease make fun of me if it advances your cause.

Over and out.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I found a great site of euphemisms

http://www.amatory-ink.co.uk/thesaurus/morejack.htm

 

[bgillisp]

Returning to the original topic now. I do not understand why most reviewers cannot tell the difference between real time and turn based. I think the chess and basketball analogy given earlier is a great test. And, I am sure all of them have played both, so should know the difference.

Or, you can do my test. Make sure any AI is turned off for your party, and enter a battle. Then, leave for lunch right as battle begins. If you come back and nothing has happened, chances are it is a turn based game as it is waiting for your TURN. If the battle is over because you lost (due to no action), or you are badly injured, it is likely a real time system. This will fail in BG if you have turned on the pauses or party AI, and some Final Fantasy's pause you when you enter a menu, so not a fool-proof test, but it works really well.

 

[Volourn]

"This will fail in BG if you have turned on the pauses or party AI"

BIO's version of pause n play ruins your theory quite simply with the various pause options including - you guessed it - pause at the end of each round. Ding! Ding! Ding! Therefore, while BIO games are not Tb they are also NOT RT either. In fact, they're much closer to TB than they are RT.