Jack Of Owls
Arcane
So this is the final chapter of BoA and it will complete a trilogy? I'm liking that. Been holding off for years playing this until the complete saga was available for download since I'm weird that way.
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Good Doom/Heretic/Hexen WADs
- Thread starter AngryEddy
- Start date
Curratum
Guest
Shouldn't have held off. That way you would know that half the maps in chapters 1 and 2 run at around of below 30 fps on a mid-range i5 and a 4 gb GPU that can run Red Dead Redemption 2 at around 50 fps on High.
BoA's biggest problem isn't even the difficulty and retarded hitscanners. The biggest issue is performance. The team has been repeatedly made aware that performance is completely broken but they continually refused to do anything about it or scale down their "vision".
It makes me sick and I frankly want to punch Tormentor in his hipster face, because this UNGODLY amount of amazing assets and levels are effectively flushed down the shitter just because everything runs at unplayable framerates most of the time.
Meanwhile, GrafZahl who is chiefly responsible for the development of the GZDoom engine keeps refusing to implement multi-core rendering because it "would not bring meaningful improvements". Meanwhile, if you happen to have a CPU with insane single-thread performance, BoA actually sorta runs at presentable framerates.
The ZDoom community in general is a bunch of intolerable coding nerds, modders who have their heads way up their rear ends and transitioning / fully transitioned sexually confused individuals. The only ray of hope in this absolute dump is Vostyok who works on Ashes 2063 / Afterglow and is actually a grown-up, cool, sane guy with a normal family.
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This is a common trait with modders as a whole. A lot of stalker mods push the engine to outright instability or horrific performance with features that the engine can't reliably handle (least before we got more stable 64 bit engine source ports).
Make the things optional or scale down your vision slightly. If it plays like shit and/or crashes all the time, it isn't a good experience.
lightbane
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2008
- Messages
- 10,552
Damn modders. I remember how H-Doom and many others decide to fuck you and make the WAD unplayable if even a trace of Brutal Doom's code is ever found, even if it comes from an unrelated mod.
This probably helps a lot.
Bonus video. Any players of this WAD and the collection featured in the description?
Ol' Willy
Arcane
A horse of course
Guest
Definitely not a fan of the distracting effects at 0:50/0:51. Give me a nice fireball sprite any day.
Curratum
Guest
No, Vostyok is not a Slav, in case it matters. Not sure why he chose that name.
lightbane
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2008
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- 10,552
*Checks BoA 3 trailer*
Wow, it's me, or is that stuttering in fucking GZDoom? In the trailer no less? How lame can you be to overload that simple engine with so much crap to the point it kneels over?
I hope you can disable all of these pointless shiny visual effects...
Wow, it's me, or is that stuttering in fucking GZDoom? In the trailer no less? How lame can you be to overload that simple engine with so much crap to the point it kneels over?
I hope you can disable all of these pointless shiny visual effects...
Curratum
Guest
It's the engine as well, honestly.
There's this whole meme / drama where modders keep asking for Feature X to be added, GrafZahl moans for a while, then adds it.
Fast forward 10 years - the engine is a ramshackle mess of poorly implemented features that end up breaking performance horribly when used, and it still runs on a single CPU thread, despite all the shit that's been pasted ontop of the base.
Meanwhile, BoA uses ALL of them at once, because Tormentor's creative vision cannot be compromised with.
Curratum
Guest
Just googled PillowBlaster, but before I managed to see what Doom stuff he's making, I saw he's retweeting posts from furries and I kinda closed the browser tab.
Ol' Willy
Arcane
Check Trailblazer. No furries inside.Just googled PillowBlaster, but before I managed to see what Doom stuff he's making, I saw he's retweeting posts from furries and I kinda closed the browser tab.
Jack Of Owls
Arcane
I remember reading the readme from one of the coders of GZDoom, I think, and he said something like: "I don't recommend Nvidia cards because they'll run slow under GZdoom compared to ATI." That was my first hint that there was a very fine, very faint line between fantasy and reality for many modders and coders. (Just for the record, even the most demanding Doom wads ran fine on my nvida card at the time).
Curratum
Guest
Do other people work on GZD in addition to GrafZahl?
Seeing how he reacts to someone even wording a question about some features and mapping for the engine poorly, I imagine he'd implode if someone actually worked on the same codebase with him.
Seeing how he reacts to someone even wording a question about some features and mapping for the engine poorly, I imagine he'd implode if someone actually worked on the same codebase with him.
Dayyālu
Arcane
Yes. There are other
To elaborate on this: I somewhat... disagree. Performance is utter dogshit and they react violently to anyone even suggesting this on the official thread, but I can pardon the game being a slideshow on a PC that can run Eternal on max settings. Modders.
I can't pardon the gameplay design. There are several choices that are frankly puzzling: of course, the fact that many maps degenerate into long-range gunfights in poor visibility with hitscanner enemies. That's the basic.
Can we add the entirety of Episode 1's big foe, the Machine Men or whatever, that are both bullet sponges, have insane firing rates and in some varieties area attacks? And how you are bound to fight them in small arenas? Or how the boss of the secret level is essentially impossible to understand and you spray&pray until it dies?
Episode 2 has the utterly insane stealth section - the design is so try&die to be abominable - and the entire space levels are an exercise on frustration. The end boss of the space levels would be neatly designed, if you weren't sick of the bullet sponge enemies worsened by the endless ammunition drought.
And on all this you see so many potential good things. Assets are great. The Return from Castle Wolfestein ambience when it works works excellently. But it's all squandered in subpar design that's there because they need to Go Mod. Stealth, vehicles, more is more just because it's more.
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lightbane
Arcane
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- Dec 27, 2008
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- 10,552
It tends to happen. The few that know how to please the spirit of the machine lord over the others and you better join, or else. As much shit as Sarge was given, his mods are actually good performance-wise and the dude went out of his way to improve them further.
Sounds dreadful and popamole. Why is there that obsession to bring mechanics from modern games into classic ones, instead of using what's already there?
What secret level? I thought it had secrets here and there, but no actual secret levels. Can you elaborate how's said boss BTW?
It's like it was the 00s again. No-one loves them, and normal people still do.
Bigg Boss
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2012
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- 7,528
The reason is the drivers on some of the older cards are downright shit with Gzdoom.
Dayyālu
Arcane
As much as I'm not one of the Sarge haters, "good performance" and "Brutal Doom: Latest Versions" aren't a phrase I'd type, myself.
BoA , as Curratum correctly pointed out, needs to have everything. The sky is the limit. You have also infiltration missions and a couple of "war sequences" out of CoD, D-Day, Paris and the like. The entire thing makes the mod timeline a bit amusing to follow, the Germans are suffering dreadful losses yet manage to apparently still have presence in places like Egypt/Tunisia in 1944. It's pulp, I understand, but it's a bit jarring.
One for each episode. They're neat ideas, kinda tedious in execution.
Jack Of Owls
Arcane
Has anyone here played or re-played the latest versions (revised?) of Chapters 1 & 2 of BoA? It's mentioned in the trailer above that Chapters 1 & 2 were somewhat re-designed. Maybe some of the issues were fixed.
Curratum
Guest
I tried the updated CH 1 and 2. Perhaps there's spots where it's a little better, but the framerate is overall absolute shit (read "around 30 and sometimes lower") in large chunks again.
For reference, I'm playing on an i5 3470 and an RX 570 4gb.
Jack Of Owls
Arcane
Regarding BoA: I'm just gonna brute force that motherfucker to get 60+ FPS when I get my new upgrade put together with my 10850K's 10-cores at 5.2 GHz. Oh wait. GZDoom doesn't utilize multicore. Does it at least use 64-bit? Don't get me wrong I do love this source port, but I always hurt the one I love
I also remember the GZDoom coder getting so upset when another coder came into a topic I started on Doomworld and said how inefficient his coding skills were and went into detail and GZ Man was so shaken he literally couldn't respond to the guy who dared to put down his coding skills and just temporarily took down all new builds of GZDoom from his repository. I pictured GZ's face as he read that topic looking exactly like Billy Budd's when he was so upset he couldn't reply to the terrible lie Master-at-Arms John Claggart hurled against him, but instead of balling his fist and hitting and killing someone, GZ Guy took down his GZDoom. Coders are such sensitive souls.
I also remember the GZDoom coder getting so upset when another coder came into a topic I started on Doomworld and said how inefficient his coding skills were and went into detail and GZ Man was so shaken he literally couldn't respond to the guy who dared to put down his coding skills and just temporarily took down all new builds of GZDoom from his repository. I pictured GZ's face as he read that topic looking exactly like Billy Budd's when he was so upset he couldn't reply to the terrible lie Master-at-Arms John Claggart hurled against him, but instead of balling his fist and hitting and killing someone, GZ Guy took down his GZDoom. Coders are such sensitive souls.
Curratum
Guest
We've been going on about Graf too long.
Here, have a list of the Doom maps I still keep and rotate through when I feel like some Doom. This list contains stuff that's been collected over roughly 15 years and has been pruned over and over again until just the REALLY good stuff remained.
Doom 2 megawads:
Doom 2 single / multi-map wads:
Doom 1 mixed bag, both megawads and episodes and single / multi-map wads:
Sorry for the blurry text jpegs, I thought I was saving PNGs but realized what they are once I uploaded them.
Here, have a list of the Doom maps I still keep and rotate through when I feel like some Doom. This list contains stuff that's been collected over roughly 15 years and has been pruned over and over again until just the REALLY good stuff remained.
Doom 2 megawads:
Doom 2 single / multi-map wads:
Doom 1 mixed bag, both megawads and episodes and single / multi-map wads:
Sorry for the blurry text jpegs, I thought I was saving PNGs but realized what they are once I uploaded them.
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2010
- Messages
- 10,880
They're not blurry at all for me (or maybe that's what my normal eyesight is like now...), and thanks for posting the list. I've been going through the Cacowards nominations and making my own to-play list. I'm personally not a huge fan of the Plutonia school of design, and I see you have several of those in there, but it's nice to have something to cross-reference against. I also see you have included every "The Way id Did" megaward, that's promising, as I had high hopes for them too. I'll definitely be checking many of your recommendations out.
As for me I just finished playing through Playstation Doom minutes ago. Took 11h40 in total, that included getting 100% on almost every map. Some things I missed due to known bugs, others I just have no idea what I am missing (notably, I missed a few kills in Monster Condo, but I have absolutely no idea where they were hiding). Obviously it would've been much shorter if I hadn't aimed for 100%, but I wasn't trying to speedrun and frequently slowed down to soak in the atmosphere and admire the designs and lighting. I think it also would've taken me much longer to 100% if I hadn't played the originals as much. My memory was uneven on some levels (I really wasn't sure a lot of times if the levels had been changed when ported or if I had just forgotten so much), but others I blazed through because it all came back to me.
My impressions of the Playstation version are generally quite positive. As I mentioned before progression is weird since you have only one start point (though I guess you could pistol-start every single map...), so compared to PC Doom you have a much more powerful arsenal at points when you have much weaker opposition (MAP31 is the most obvious; it might be the halfway point here, but back on PC it's a MAP01). On the flip side some very clearly not-starter Doom II monsters appear as early MAP01. If I was judging this as a purist this might've annoyed me, but I found this kind of surprise actually refreshing, and Midway were smart enough not to overdo it. I missed some of the removed levels, especially since all of the largest most open ones are gone, but some of the exclusive ones are pretty good too, Twilight Descends and Threshold of Pain were especially good for where they're inserted (after what was E4M8 on PC, and before Doom II proper). The new Doom II secret level (Mansion) was good too, and the super-secret level, while 100% gimmicky, was a hilarious surprise. Unfortunately the very last level (MAP54 Redemption Denied) is also new, and this one is very meh.
Early levels were a LOT more modified than later ones, a quick glance at comparison maps shows large chunks missing from many Doom I levels (Spawning Vats is missing more than half the level), whereas the design seems a lot more conserved in Doom II levels (at least the ones they did keep). I wonder if that's because the Doom I ones were originally ported to the Jaguar first and then to the Playstation, while the Doom II ones were modified specifically for the Playstation and so they had more leeway in how much they could keep. In any case, even when the general layout of the level is intact, a LOT of detail is missing. I really noticed this with switches; Doom sometimes had a dozen different ones on each level, yet here each level will only use one (two if particularly generous), probably to save memory. The texturing and decorative objects of the original almost seem lavish compared to how barebone the port can be (the very first level is already a striking example). The engine tries its best to compensate for this, and IMO it mostly works, with a lot of the colour coming from the lighting instead of the textures, with a LOT of really cool light tricks used very intelligently. The moody atmosphere created by the dynamic and coloured lighting and the dark ambient soundtrack works best up until two thirds or so; once you hit the later Doom II levels, the onslaught of 150+ enemies per level doesn't mesh as well with the atmosphere as with the PC's more action oriented version. I did feel the late levels were much weaker than the first half or so, but that may be the case even with their equivalents in late Doom II, especially since the more creative levels are missing here.
Still, the next time you feel like playing the original levels while thinking you know them too well to enjoy, give Playstation Doom a shot. Me, I'll be trying Playstation Final Doom.
EDIT: I just realized the Playstation version has an option to somewhat alleviate the progression problem: on the main menu, the default when starting a new game is "Ultimate Doom", which puts you on MAP01, ie E1M1 of Doom I; but you can also set it to start a new game of Doom II, which puts you on MAP31, ie MAP01 of Doom II. So it might be best to start Ultimate Doom, play until you get the mid-game voiced intermission, then quit to main menu and start a new game of Doom II. Playstation Final Doom has similar options for the Master Levels, the Evilution levels, and then the Plutonia levels.
As for me I just finished playing through Playstation Doom minutes ago. Took 11h40 in total, that included getting 100% on almost every map. Some things I missed due to known bugs, others I just have no idea what I am missing (notably, I missed a few kills in Monster Condo, but I have absolutely no idea where they were hiding). Obviously it would've been much shorter if I hadn't aimed for 100%, but I wasn't trying to speedrun and frequently slowed down to soak in the atmosphere and admire the designs and lighting. I think it also would've taken me much longer to 100% if I hadn't played the originals as much. My memory was uneven on some levels (I really wasn't sure a lot of times if the levels had been changed when ported or if I had just forgotten so much), but others I blazed through because it all came back to me.
My impressions of the Playstation version are generally quite positive. As I mentioned before progression is weird since you have only one start point (though I guess you could pistol-start every single map...), so compared to PC Doom you have a much more powerful arsenal at points when you have much weaker opposition (MAP31 is the most obvious; it might be the halfway point here, but back on PC it's a MAP01). On the flip side some very clearly not-starter Doom II monsters appear as early MAP01. If I was judging this as a purist this might've annoyed me, but I found this kind of surprise actually refreshing, and Midway were smart enough not to overdo it. I missed some of the removed levels, especially since all of the largest most open ones are gone, but some of the exclusive ones are pretty good too, Twilight Descends and Threshold of Pain were especially good for where they're inserted (after what was E4M8 on PC, and before Doom II proper). The new Doom II secret level (Mansion) was good too, and the super-secret level, while 100% gimmicky, was a hilarious surprise. Unfortunately the very last level (MAP54 Redemption Denied) is also new, and this one is very meh.
Early levels were a LOT more modified than later ones, a quick glance at comparison maps shows large chunks missing from many Doom I levels (Spawning Vats is missing more than half the level), whereas the design seems a lot more conserved in Doom II levels (at least the ones they did keep). I wonder if that's because the Doom I ones were originally ported to the Jaguar first and then to the Playstation, while the Doom II ones were modified specifically for the Playstation and so they had more leeway in how much they could keep. In any case, even when the general layout of the level is intact, a LOT of detail is missing. I really noticed this with switches; Doom sometimes had a dozen different ones on each level, yet here each level will only use one (two if particularly generous), probably to save memory. The texturing and decorative objects of the original almost seem lavish compared to how barebone the port can be (the very first level is already a striking example). The engine tries its best to compensate for this, and IMO it mostly works, with a lot of the colour coming from the lighting instead of the textures, with a LOT of really cool light tricks used very intelligently. The moody atmosphere created by the dynamic and coloured lighting and the dark ambient soundtrack works best up until two thirds or so; once you hit the later Doom II levels, the onslaught of 150+ enemies per level doesn't mesh as well with the atmosphere as with the PC's more action oriented version. I did feel the late levels were much weaker than the first half or so, but that may be the case even with their equivalents in late Doom II, especially since the more creative levels are missing here.
Still, the next time you feel like playing the original levels while thinking you know them too well to enjoy, give Playstation Doom a shot. Me, I'll be trying Playstation Final Doom.
EDIT: I just realized the Playstation version has an option to somewhat alleviate the progression problem: on the main menu, the default when starting a new game is "Ultimate Doom", which puts you on MAP01, ie E1M1 of Doom I; but you can also set it to start a new game of Doom II, which puts you on MAP31, ie MAP01 of Doom II. So it might be best to start Ultimate Doom, play until you get the mid-game voiced intermission, then quit to main menu and start a new game of Doom II. Playstation Final Doom has similar options for the Master Levels, the Evilution levels, and then the Plutonia levels.
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Curratum
Guest
That was an interesting take. I've never played PS Doom but the sprites, art style and colored lighting and general lack of darkness always turned me off when I watched videos.
Might grab it and try it for a dollar sometime.
Edit: Posting before your first coffee for the day is bad. I meant Doom 64, not PS Doom...
Might grab it and try it for a dollar sometime.
Edit: Posting before your first coffee for the day is bad. I meant Doom 64, not PS Doom...
Ol' Willy
Arcane
Hell Revealed >>>>>>>>>>>> Hell Revealed 2
Curratum
Guest
Bonus item - if you're actually interested in Heretic, here's the best Heretic maps that are out there:
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