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Good Doom/Heretic/Hexen WADs

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by AngryEddy, Nov 23, 2012.

  1. Sceptic Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Sceptic
    Joined:
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    Divinity: Original Sin
    I've been dicking around a lot with Doom, for the first time in many many years. Downloaded and played a few maps, started a few megawads but didn't save and kept thinking "I'll do a proper playthrough later", but the net result is the revival of that Doom itch.

    One of the things that I only realized more recently is that the console versions of Doom really are their own thing; I'd always assumed they were just inferior ports, even though many people had told me Doom 64 especially was a very different beast. In any case this made me want to look into a PC conversion of the console-exclusive levels of Playstation Doom. I came across The Lost Episode but while it was interesting in some ways, it's really "vaguely inspired by" rather than a port of the console levels. The architecture and visuals can be quite unique and trippy, but the difficulty is all over the place and sometimes more obnoxious than challenging. It's also pretty ridiculous that PS Doom took Spawning Vats and cut down large chunks of it, then TLE took this cutdown version and reexpanded it into something that is similar to but not quite like the original.

    So I kept looking and I found GEC Master Edition, a not-quite-TC (it converts original console WADs, rather than recreate them) that converts all of Doom 64, and Doom and Final Doom for PS to a modified GZDoom to allow all the special rendering and physics of the console to work. Maybe not so useful for Doom 64 since EX exists, and initially I didn't particularly feel like playing through the entire 90 PS levels just to check out a few unique levels. Then I came across ConDoom, which tries to integrate the console levels into their logical place in the progression of the PC Doom and Doom II. I thought that was a really cool idea and was exactly what I was looking for, but the levels don't seem to have been adapted very well, and are missing their original unique textures, monsters, and special effects, including complete lack of scripting (which both PS Doom and ZDoom support, but not the original obviously). Since the GEC WADs for these levels do include these specials, I tinkered with them a bit to see if I could replace the ConDoom version of them with the GEC ones. I think it's possible, but not as easy (for me at least) as I had hoped. I said fuck it and decided to play GEC PS Doom instead.

    I must say I was surprised by how different, and how good, PS Doom actually was. The port has to deal with some severe limitations with geometry and with how many textures and sprites can be stored at once (and therefore available to use in a single level). Many levels are just completely gone. To compensate for this, the simplified levels really try to do their best with lighting to make everything better looking than it really is, and to my surprise it actually works. The music is fantastic, instead of Bobby's metal/ambient sometimes-pastiche, it's all dark ambient. The lighting, the colours (the palette is VERY different from PC Doom), the music, very different sounds, the new enemies, changes in the placement of old ones (including Doom II's pain elementals in Map01 out of almost 60!), it all creates an atmosphere that I guess is much closer to Doom 64's but that completely different from PC Doom's, even when playing familiar levels. Turning all 4 Doom episodes, plus Doom II, into a single continuous mega-episode does strange things to the progression, but then that's already thrown completely out the window with late-Doom II enemies appearing in E1 levels. In any case, I liked enough of what I saw to decide to play through both Playstation ports as if they were their own games. It helps that it's been a long time since I last played original IWADs, so I really can't tell what's new, what's changed and what's the same but I'm not remembering it. Which is a good thing. It would be nice to have a more faithful ConDoom, and I might try and get it working myself, but this GEC Edition is quite worth it too.

    My advice if you have something partially made, and are trying to motivate yourself, is to post stuff. Put up screenshots. Even, put up whatever incomplete pieces you already have, and let people see/play them. You'll get some "this looks cool!", the obligatory "lol u sux", but you might also get specific constructive criticism, and that more than anything might push you to want to get it out in finished form.

    As something of a compulsive tinkerer when it comes to WADs, I can say I'd definitely load up and have a look at whatever gets released.
     
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  2. MotherMachinae Arcane

    MotherMachinae
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    Chapter 3 for Blade of Agony is coming
    [​IMG]

    :killit:

     
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  3. Dayyālu Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Dayyālu
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    I'll brofist, but BoA is.... the ultimate example of Modders gonna mod.

    It's impressive, a work of love, shitton of stuff, detail an' crap....

    And no one checked that your impressive maps chock full of hitscan long-range enemies aren't a chore to play, or HP bloat galore. The basic gameplay loop of BoA is tedius, I even resorted to cheats to pass the Space levels in Episode 2, they're an unholy chore.
     
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  4. JackOfOwls Erudite

    JackOfOwls
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    So this is the final chapter of BoA and it will complete a trilogy? I'm liking that. Been holding off for years playing this until the complete saga was available for download since I'm weird that way.
     
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  5. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
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    Shouldn't have held off. That way you would know that half the maps in chapters 1 and 2 run at around of below 30 fps on a mid-range i5 and a 4 gb GPU that can run Red Dead Redemption 2 at around 50 fps on High.

    BoA's biggest problem isn't even the difficulty and retarded hitscanners. The biggest issue is performance. The team has been repeatedly made aware that performance is completely broken but they continually refused to do anything about it or scale down their "vision".

    It makes me sick and I frankly want to punch Tormentor in his hipster face, because this UNGODLY amount of amazing assets and levels are effectively flushed down the shitter just because everything runs at unplayable framerates most of the time.

    Meanwhile, GrafZahl who is chiefly responsible for the development of the GZDoom engine keeps refusing to implement multi-core rendering because it "would not bring meaningful improvements". Meanwhile, if you happen to have a CPU with insane single-thread performance, BoA actually sorta runs at presentable framerates.

    The ZDoom community in general is a bunch of intolerable coding nerds, modders who have their heads way up their rear ends and transitioning / fully transitioned sexually confused individuals. The only ray of hope in this absolute dump is Vostyok who works on Ashes 2063 / Afterglow and is actually a grown-up, cool, sane guy with a normal family.
     
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  6. Tacgnol Shitlord Patron

    Tacgnol
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    This is a common trait with modders as a whole. A lot of stalker mods push the engine to outright instability or horrific performance with features that the engine can't reliably handle (least before we got more stable 64 bit engine source ports).

    Make the things optional or scale down your vision slightly. If it plays like shit and/or crashes all the time, it isn't a good experience.
     
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  7. lightbane Arcane

    lightbane
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    Damn modders. I remember how H-Doom and many others decide to fuck you and make the WAD unplayable if even a trace of Brutal Doom's code is ever found, even if it comes from an unrelated mod.

    This probably helps a lot.

    Bonus video. Any players of this WAD and the collection featured in the description?

    Show Spoiler


     
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  8. Ol' Willy Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Zionist Agent

    Ol' Willy
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    Judging by the nickname, isn't he a Slav? :D

    PillowBlaster is a cool guy as well
     
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  9. Ed123 Arcane Patron

    Ed123
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    Serpent in the Staglands Wasteland 2
    Definitely not a fan of the distracting effects at 0:50/0:51. Give me a nice fireball sprite any day.
     
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  10. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
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    No, Vostyok is not a Slav, in case it matters. Not sure why he chose that name.
     
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  11. lightbane Arcane

    lightbane
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    *Checks BoA 3 trailer*
    Wow, it's me, or is that stuttering in fucking GZDoom? In the trailer no less? How lame can you be to overload that simple engine with so much crap to the point it kneels over?
    I hope you can disable all of these pointless shiny visual effects...
     
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  12. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
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    It's the engine as well, honestly.

    There's this whole meme / drama where modders keep asking for Feature X to be added, GrafZahl moans for a while, then adds it.
    Fast forward 10 years - the engine is a ramshackle mess of poorly implemented features that end up breaking performance horribly when used, and it still runs on a single CPU thread, despite all the shit that's been pasted ontop of the base.

    Meanwhile, BoA uses ALL of them at once, because Tormentor's creative vision cannot be compromised with.
     
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  13. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
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    Just googled PillowBlaster, but before I managed to see what Doom stuff he's making, I saw he's retweeting posts from furries and I kinda closed the browser tab. :(
     
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  14. Ol' Willy Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Zionist Agent

    Ol' Willy
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    Check Trailblazer. No furries inside.
     
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  15. JackOfOwls Erudite

    JackOfOwls
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    I remember reading the readme from one of the coders of GZDoom, I think, and he said something like: "I don't recommend Nvidia cards because they'll run slow under GZdoom compared to ATI." That was my first hint that there was a very fine, very faint line between fantasy and reality for many modders and coders. (Just for the record, even the most demanding Doom wads ran fine on my nvida card at the time).
     
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  16. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
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    Do other people work on GZD in addition to GrafZahl?

    Seeing how he reacts to someone even wording a question about some features and mapping for the engine poorly, I imagine he'd implode if someone actually worked on the same codebase with him.
     
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  17. Dayyālu Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Dayyālu
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    Yes. There are other victims developers on GZDoom, but as far as I remember the entire process has very little "formal" internal communication. Again, I'm very thankful to the fact that GZD exists, but one has to consider that Modders Gonna Mod and that Graf as clearly an ego the size of a battleship. It is how it is.

    To elaborate on this: I somewhat... disagree. Performance is utter dogshit and they react violently to anyone even suggesting this on the official thread, but I can pardon the game being a slideshow on a PC that can run Eternal on max settings. Modders.

    I can't pardon the gameplay design. There are several choices that are frankly puzzling: of course, the fact that many maps degenerate into long-range gunfights in poor visibility with hitscanner enemies. That's the basic.

    Can we add the entirety of Episode 1's big foe, the Machine Men or whatever, that are both bullet sponges, have insane firing rates and in some varieties area attacks? And how you are bound to fight them in small arenas? Or how the boss of the secret level is essentially impossible to understand and you spray&pray until it dies?

    Episode 2 has the utterly insane stealth section - the design is so try&die to be abominable - and the entire space levels are an exercise on frustration. The end boss of the space levels would be neatly designed, if you weren't sick of the bullet sponge enemies worsened by the endless ammunition drought.

    And on all this you see so many potential good things. Assets are great. The Return from Castle Wolfestein ambience when it works works excellently. But it's all squandered in subpar design that's there because they need to Go Mod. Stealth, vehicles, more is more just because it's more.
     
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  18. lightbane Arcane

    lightbane
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    It tends to happen. The few that know how to please the spirit of the machine lord over the others and you better join, or else. As much shit as Sarge was given, his mods are actually good performance-wise and the dude went out of his way to improve them further.

    Sounds dreadful and popamole. Why is there that obsession to bring mechanics from modern games into classic ones, instead of using what's already there?

    What secret level? I thought it had secrets here and there, but no actual secret levels. Can you elaborate how's said boss BTW?

    :decline: It's like it was the 00s again. No-one loves them, and normal people still do.
     
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  19. Bigg Boss Arcane

    Bigg Boss
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    The reason is the drivers on some of the older cards are downright shit with Gzdoom.
     
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  20. Dayyālu Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Dayyālu
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    As much as I'm not one of the Sarge haters, "good performance" and "Brutal Doom: Latest Versions" aren't a phrase I'd type, myself.

    BoA , as Curratum correctly pointed out, needs to have everything. The sky is the limit. You have also infiltration missions and a couple of "war sequences" out of CoD, D-Day, Paris and the like. The entire thing makes the mod timeline a bit amusing to follow, the Germans are suffering dreadful losses yet manage to apparently still have presence in places like Egypt/Tunisia in 1944. It's pulp, I understand, but it's a bit jarring.



    One for each episode. They're neat ideas, kinda tedious in execution.
     
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  21. JackOfOwls Erudite

    JackOfOwls
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    Has anyone here played or re-played the latest versions (revised?) of Chapters 1 & 2 of BoA? It's mentioned in the trailer above that Chapters 1 & 2 were somewhat re-designed. Maybe some of the issues were fixed.
     
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  22. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
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    I tried the updated CH 1 and 2. Perhaps there's spots where it's a little better, but the framerate is overall absolute shit (read "around 30 and sometimes lower") in large chunks again.

    For reference, I'm playing on an i5 3470 and an RX 570 4gb.
     
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  23. JackOfOwls Erudite

    JackOfOwls
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    Regarding BoA: I'm just gonna brute force that motherfucker to get 60+ FPS when I get my new upgrade put together with my 10850K's 10-cores at 5.2 GHz. Oh wait. GZDoom doesn't utilize multicore. Does it at least use 64-bit? Don't get me wrong I do love this source port, but I always hurt the one I love

    I also remember the GZDoom coder getting so upset when another coder came into a topic I started on Doomworld and said how inefficient his coding skills were and went into detail and GZ Man was so shaken he literally couldn't respond to the guy who dared to put down his coding skills and just temporarily took down all new builds of GZDoom from his repository. I pictured GZ's face as he read that topic looking exactly like Billy Budd's when he was so upset he couldn't reply to the terrible lie Master-at-Arms John Claggart hurled against him, but instead of balling his fist and hitting and killing someone, GZ Guy took down his GZDoom. Coders are such sensitive souls.
     
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  24. Curratum Magister

    Curratum
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    We've been going on about Graf too long.

    Here, have a list of the Doom maps I still keep and rotate through when I feel like some Doom. This list contains stuff that's been collected over roughly 15 years and has been pruned over and over again until just the REALLY good stuff remained.

    Doom 2 megawads:

    [​IMG]

    Doom 2 single / multi-map wads:

    [​IMG]

    Doom 1 mixed bag, both megawads and episodes and single / multi-map wads:

    [​IMG]

    Sorry for the blurry text jpegs, I thought I was saving PNGs but realized what they are once I uploaded them.
     
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