Good RPG or good game?

[Kamaz]

What would you think about game that offers many multiple stat-non-depandant choices that makes game's plot non-linear? If the game has no character stats (even invisible ones), but keeps track of your actions thus allowing you to play different characters with different attitudes, thinkings, inclinations, moral stances, motives, even background - would you consider it RPG?

We, of course, assume, there are plenty choices with considerably different outcomes, that one choice removes "impossible" choices later in the game (etc.) and overall game quality is splendid.

Do you need the stats to start calling game RPG?

 

[Relien]

Yes, I would definitely call it rpg. You don't necessarily need stats like STR, INT for that type of game, but they would help decide what is your character able to do. Of course I'm not talking (only) about fights, good rpg should have stat checks on many different things. But even without these classical stats rpg games need to store information about your actions in the game world and your progress, maybe you could call them stats. Let's say that for a savegame you need much more info than your position, health, weapons and amount of ammo

 

[Atrokkus]

Oh, you are just thinking what I was thinking some time before.

However, I am convinced that technically such a game cannot be called RPG, for it lacks the aspect of alter-egoism, of representing yourself in some fictional character, which affects the world by his own abilities and traits, with your guidance. That is, it is a simulation of real life, with *limited* abilities and possibilities. For without limitations, it pretty much becomes overly centered around the prescripted events and main storyline, which is a plague of adventure-games.

However, if the game is lacking *some* of the roleplaying aspects, such as fully character-stat-based combat, i don't think it cannot be considered RPG, if other aspects are fully-fledged. That's why I believe that Gothic is a pure RPG, perhaps not the classic one, though.

 

[Claw]

Sounds like interactive fiction.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

What would you think about game that offers many multiple stat-non-depandant choices that makes game's plot non-linear? If the game has no character stats (even invisible ones), but keeps track of your actions thus allowing you to play different characters with different attitudes, thinkings, inclinations, moral stances, motives, even background - would you consider it RPG?

We, of course, assume, there are plenty choices with considerably different outcomes, that one choice removes "impossible" choices later in the game (etc.) and overall game quality is splendid.

Do you need the stats to start calling game RPG?

Hm, this sound very much borderline adventure to me. How du you picture combat in this sort of game? I wonder if Shenmue I/II could be considered a sort of lightwieight atempt at this? I haven`t played the games my self, as I am no console whore, but I have friends hwo praise theese games to the skies and above.
A quick googleing give me the impression of a rather linear game tho...

 

[Drakron]

Shenmue is linear.

And you right, its a adventure game and not a RPG, even JRPG that have linear paths and lack the ability to create a character allow party creation and messing around with the characters a bit.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

all of u just STFU

 

[Sarvis]

I've asked this before several times in arguments. By and large codexers will say yes, that such a game is an RPG.

They are wrong, but they never listen to me so...

 

[Hamanu]

Well, this one piqued my interest. I've always been into less combat oriented rpgs and I've lately gotten into some statless rpg experiments and in my opinion these are no less 'true' rpgs than a stat based dungeon hack experience.

I find generally through DMing and playing that there are (to simplify) two distinct types of roleplayers, who come at the pasttime from entirely different directions.

First you have your roleplayer who considers the physical side of the character. Ie. strength, intelligence, etc. and uses character stats to decide outcomes ingame. Using dexterity and a die roll to decide lockpicking success for example. This is fine and is what most classical sysetms are based around. An example of this type of ssytem might be Greyhawk or Shadowrun.

Second you've got your player who will roleplay by trying to actually 'become' the character and make decisions based entirely on the PC's perspective and history, making a distinction between in character and out of character knowledge. These types of players (and I am one) care less about the statistical attributes of the PC and more about their mentality and how they would respond to situations. An example of a more philosophical setting that you might be familiar with is Planescape.

Obviously most players combine both of these aspects to a certain extent, but I'd think it accurate to say that most players will fall into one category or the other.

As to the original post, yes I'd consider that an rpg as you can create a character and take his role throughout the game, playing from his point of view. playing a role if you will. The difference between that and an adventure game is that in every adventure game I've ever played you're given a character to play, there is no choice involved and no need to think things through from the character's perspective.

 

[Imbecile]

Where would you place me in those two categories?

I play in character, although they are usually variations of me, and enjoy the stats, but the biggest kick for me is the problem solving element.

I like Call of Cthulu for this reason. Combat is rarely an option (and tends to result in your going mad, and getting eaten), and so stats tend not to enter the equation leaving me (hopefully) with a puzzle to help solve.

That I like.

 

[Hamanu]

I guess I'd say you're closer to the second group, playing one way doesn't necessarily mean you can't enjoy other aspects, I love a good dungeon crawl for instance. Still, it'd be hard (and probably wrong) for me to try to label you one or the other. What I outlined before were two archetypes, most real players will fall somewhere in the middle, though they will probably (like you) favour one side over the other.

On another note, I'm about to start my first game of Call of Cthulhu. Sounds like my kind of game. I've always liked Lovecraft, and it's cool that someone made a game in that universe.

 

[Drakron]

Several games were made, the first "Alone in the Dark" is almost a Cthulhu mythos game as Prisoner of Ice and Shadow of the Comet are fully Cthulhu mythos games.

 

[Imbecile]

Heh - I'm not a huge P &P'er but I like to dabble occasionally and Cthulu is one of my faves. Pick a murky night, get a sinister soundtrack going, and make sure one of your buddies is the one entering the basement first

On topic: I mentioned Cthulu because it seemed to tie in an RPG that was played with very little reliance on stats. I think the last time I played, I made 2 spot hidden rolls (and failed both - which was good ) and 1 hide roll in the entire "adventure". It was damned good fun.

It starts to get a little close to those murder mystery games you can buy for parties, but aI guess maybe those could be considered RPGs too?

Edit: Isnt there a Cthulu game out now? Dont think its an RPG though...

 

[Drakron]

Yes published by Bethsoft called "Call of Cthulu :Dark Corners of the Earth" but from what I seen its a FPS with some rather nice ideas (meaning, dont look down from heights or the screen will start spinning to simulate vertigo) and I agree that they end up more like adventure games, the Mythos is about how humans have no clue of the true nature of the universe, how there are being far more powerful that we are and how the human mind will snap in the presence of those creatures and the reality of the universe ... RPG mechanics simply cannot translate very well in a game were the objective is not being driven insane or worst.

Yes there is a D20 Call of Cthulu system and I think its predated by a D6 system.

 

[Elwro]

Yes there is a D20 Call of Cthulu system and I think its predated by a D6 system.

The older system used many types of dice. It was quite fun, although the mechanics were not the best part of it.

 

[Shagnak]

Yeah, it was a simple percentage based system, much like other Chaosium games like Elric (well, when I played it anyways). Err, and Runequest AFAIR.

Simple mechanics was all it needed, however.

Success and skills were percentile based, and damage and SAN loss were all sorts of dice.

 

[Drakron]

Well my guess is that Chaosium was offered a big sum of money for the d20 support, from what I understand they continued to support the old system but since my shoot of getting their books was slim to none I only seen the WotC supplement.

The mythos is hard to push on a RPG system more due to the combat nature of a RPG system that anything else, its clear the chance of someone going after a mythos creature and live is slim to none, my recollections of the d20 system is that you could not even pass 4th level as most creatures were all CR 10+ ... combat is simply not a option (expecialy withe the whole maddess system, its not even a question of surving their first attack but of not going mad just for looking at then).