KickStarter Grim Dawn

[Leechmonger]

Grim Dawn is the best Diablo-clone I've ever played, which is to say it's still quite bad.

Did they ever improve this game's performance?

 

[Saduj]

Did they ever improve this game's performance?

I don't think so. I started playing the final version recently after having played the beta last year and if anything it seems worse.

 

[Serus]

What's wrong with game performance... people, are you running a 486-66mhz rigs or something :D ?
As for the best Diablo (2) clone - my vote goes for D2 with medianXL mod (singleplayer) or PoE (multiplayer) but Grim Dawn is ok.

What bothers me is that Grim Dawn is such a small improvement overall over Titan Quest. Sure they improved a lot of small things (especially interface, added some tiny choices in quests, improved pace in early game, combat feel, etc...) but when it comes to the big issues they just copied their "choose two masteries" thing from Titan Quest. And all other major mechanics found in TQ too. They haven't improved on the main character building/gameplay systems in major way at all with the sole exception of Devotions. Devotions however feel like an afterthought and aren't that interesting mechanically. In fact GD regressed a bit from TQ in some aspects imo, masteries were more distinctive in TQ. And there was more of them... go figure. World building - same thing, feels like TQ except more generic (the latter is subjective - but levels do often look/feel similar), monsters - very uninspired, again nothing really new mechanically. Etc, etc...
This game feels more like TQ+ with new (mediocre at best) story. And the "+" part is not big enough. Probably the reason of all this i mentioned was money - or lack of it for making of GD and availability of it for TQ. Or people who are into making D(2) clones aren't into creativity. This is why i find PoE superior - at least the develeopers innovated in a few meaningful ways.

 

[anvi]

Ok, i believe you (i agree that Diablo 2 clones are formulaic and repetitive and can be called boring, all the "fun" parts are in the build's making - and the addiction, overall a crappy genre for sure) but why post it in this particular diablo clone disscussion thread ? This isn't even the worst clone. Go annoy D3 fans... Ah i see.
Please continue, but as of this moment you failed to generate enough butthurt to make it even mildly amusing. Your trolling is WORSE than an average diablo clone gameplay. An accomplishment for sure.

I can't really troll 10 different posts at once, I'm only human! But Grim Dawn, PoE, D3, Sacred, Titan Quest, Torchlight, whatever they are all identical to me. Also I am jealous they get such good 'build making'. If someone could match that but with the gameplay of a normal RPG, they would get my eternal love.

 

[deama]

Ok, i believe you (i agree that Diablo 2 clones are formulaic and repetitive and can be called boring, all the "fun" parts are in the build's making - and the addiction, overall a crappy genre for sure) but why post it in this particular diablo clone disscussion thread ? This isn't even the worst clone. Go annoy D3 fans... Ah i see.
Please continue, but as of this moment you failed to generate enough butthurt to make it even mildly amusing. Your trolling is WORSE than an average diablo clone gameplay. An accomplishment for sure.

I can't really troll 10 different posts at once, I'm only human! But Grim Dawn, PoE, D3, Sacred, Titan Quest, Torchlight, whatever they are all identical to me. Also I am jealous they get such good 'build making'. If someone could match that but with the gameplay of a normal RPG, they would get my eternal love.

What's your favourite ARPG (except for D2 and its mods)?

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

What's your favourite ARPG (except for D2 and its mods)?

Easily Ultima Underworld.

 

[deama]

What's your favourite ARPG (except for D2 and its mods)?

Easily Ultima Underworld.

I'm too young for that, got anything newer?

 

[anvi]

What's your favourite ARPG (except for D2 and its mods)?

I'm kinda anti ARPG so not the best to ask, but I loved Dark Messiah Might & Magic but not sure if that qualifies. Awesome game though, deserved to be bigger. Kingdoms of Amalur was ok, could have been better though, but I'd sooner play that than any Diablo type game. Elder Scrolls Online has impressed me. It is pew pew pew actiony combat but it is an engaging game, better quests than Skyrim, much bigger world, better combat, better character building, better everything really. I pretty much hated Skyrim though but TESO does enough different.

Some old ish but not ancient ones are System Shock 1 and 2, they are FPS but have enough RPG elements to just about qualify I guess. Also Jade Empire. Generally I think the split in genres is retarded though, action RPG's end up being mindless and dumb and tactical RPG's end up being tedious and snooty. I wish there could be games that fit right in the middle. Actiony but with depth and strategy. There are some that satisfy me but not many. I deserve more. Games industry needs to pull its finger out.

 

[Leechmonger]

If you're gonna bring up the System Shock games you might as well add Deus Ex and Vampire The Masquerade.

 

[deama]

What's your favourite ARPG (except for D2 and its mods)?

I'm kinda anti ARPG so not the best to ask, but I loved Dark Messiah Might & Magic but not sure if that qualifies. Awesome game though, deserved to be bigger. Kingdoms of Amalur was ok, could have been better though, but I'd sooner play that than any Diablo type game. Elder Scrolls Online has impressed me. It is pew pew pew actiony combat but it is an engaging game, better quests than Skyrim, much bigger world, better combat, better character building, better everything really. I pretty much hated Skyrim though but TESO does enough different.

Some old ish but not ancient ones are System Shock 1 and 2, they are FPS but have enough RPG elements to just about qualify I guess. Also Jade Empire. Generally I think the split in genres is retarded though, action RPG's end up being mindless and dumb and tactical RPG's end up being tedious and snooty. I wish there could be games that fit right in the middle. Actiony but with depth and strategy. There are some that satisfy me but not many. I deserve more. Games industry needs to pull its finger out.

Hmm, I was hoping for an obscure 10/10 game no one ever heard of.

 

[DeepOcean]

Ok, i believe you (i agree that Diablo 2 clones are formulaic and repetitive and can be called boring, all the "fun" parts are in the build's making - and the addiction, overall a crappy genre for sure) but why post it in this particular diablo clone disscussion thread ? This isn't even the worst clone. Go annoy D3 fans... Ah i see.
Please continue, but as of this moment you failed to generate enough butthurt to make it even mildly amusing. Your trolling is WORSE than an average diablo clone gameplay. An accomplishment for sure.

I can't really troll 10 different posts at once, I'm only human! But Grim Dawn, PoE, D3, Sacred, Titan Quest, Torchlight, whatever they are all identical to me. Also I am jealous they get such good 'build making'. If someone could match that but with the gameplay of a normal RPG, they would get my eternal love.

Never play a game that demands for you to play it three times before finishing your character, it is just a waste of time, especially with the two buttons combat system, doesn't matter the amount of bling your characters has at the end, you would be better served doing something else, there is always something better than to waste time chasing virtual bling and there are better games out there.

 

[Serus]

I never understood the "play three times before finishing" thing. Why most games of this sub-genre have three "difficulties" and not 4 or 7 or whatever ? Is it only because of some cargo cult of Diablo 2 or is there a deeper motive in play ? "Play 2 times" i could understand, it makes some sense, in first "diffuculty" you learn how to play your build, prepare the build itself and then start to play the "real" game. But when it comes to 3+ times... i am lost. Is it purely to make the game feel longer/more boring ? But WHY bother to do so ? It requires some additional balancing and playtesting = it costs money. Then what possible gain is in doing so - especially in the case of mostly single player games like Grim Dawn ? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ?

 

[Hobo Elf]

What's wrong with game performance... people, are you running a 486-66mhz rigs or something :D ?
As for the best Diablo (2) clone - my vote goes for D2 with medianXL mod (singleplayer) or PoE (multiplayer) but Grim Dawn is ok.

What bothers me is that Grim Dawn is such a small improvement overall over Titan Quest. Sure they improved a lot of small things (especially interface, added some tiny choices in quests, improved pace in early game, combat feel, etc...) but when it comes to the big issues they just copied their "choose two masteries" thing from Titan Quest. And all other major mechanics found in TQ too. They haven't improved on the main character building/gameplay systems in major way at all with the sole exception of Devotions. Devotions however feel like an afterthought and aren't that interesting mechanically. In fact GD regressed a bit from TQ in some aspects imo, masteries were more distinctive in TQ. And there was more of them... go figure. World building - same thing, feels like TQ except more generic (the latter is subjective - but levels do often look/feel similar), monsters - very uninspired, again nothing really new mechanically. Etc, etc...
This game feels more like TQ+ with new (mediocre at best) story. And the "+" part is not big enough. Probably the reason of all this i mentioned was money - or lack of it for making of GD and availability of it for TQ. Or people who are into making D(2) clones aren't into creativity. This is why i find PoE superior - at least the develeopers innovated in a few meaningful ways.

Arthur Bruno is the only person who had anything to do with design in Titan's Quest that also worked on Grim Dawn. He was the lead gameplay designer on TQ, but that game had another 6 designers who were absent for GD. Might explain why it felt so uninspired.

 

[prodigydancer]

Serus Elite is an opportunity to gather some basic gear for endgame but I'd make it optional for people who have already completed Ultimate. Just add more devotion shrines and double quest rewards for those who decide to skip Elite.

Still, if your build is good enough you can rush through Elite very quickly, so it's really not a big deal.

---

BTW, if anybody is relatively new to the game and wonders what's the best farm, I'd say the best is Crucible on Aspirant. People usually recommend Challenger but that's bullshit. Mobs will have much more HP, mutators will cripple you and loot isn't really better.

Construct 4x fire beacons (upgrade each of them once if you're low on DPS). Choose to start on wave 100 with extra spawn point enabled. On Aspirant fire beacons will burn trash on their own so you can focus on bosses. Do 50 waves, gather loot, restart on wave 130 and your beacons will still be there.

Best map is Crucible of the Dead - I wouldn't even bother with any other. Waves aren't really random, you can predict what will spawn next. Beware of Anasteria paired with Salazar or Valdaran. Everything else should be easy.

 

[ArchAngel]

What difference does the time make? In a MOBA I have 4 spells maybe more with items, and it an intense and fun 30 minutes. I'd much rather do that than 50 hours of pressing 2 buttons. People think of mobas as being dumb kids games yet they have a lot more depth than these diablo clones.

Not everyone wants intense action that asks for 100+ apm. Most aRPG are chill experience where you have fun building your character and moving down masses of enemies with 30 apm all that is required.

I never understood the "play three times before finishing" thing. Why most games of this sub-genre have three "difficulties" and not 4 or 7 or whatever ? Is it only because of some cargo cult of Diablo 2 or is there a deeper motive in play ? "Play 2 times" i could understand, it makes some sense, in first "diffuculty" you learn how to play your build, prepare the build itself and then start to play the "real" game. But when it comes to 3+ times... i am lost. Is it purely to make the game feel longer/more boring ? But WHY bother to do so ? It requires some additional balancing and playtesting = it costs money. Then what possible gain is in doing so - especially in the case of mostly single player games like Grim Dawn ? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ?

Because game developers figure out 3 times same content is just enough playtime for those more demanding. For people like you , you can play it once and that is it.
But 3 is not a required numbers, Path of Exile at one time had 4 difficulties (when it only had 2 acts), then they lowered that to 3 difficulties after they added Act 3. Now there is talk that after they add Act 5 they would lower the number of difficulties to two.

 

[anvi]

Hmm, I was hoping for an obscure 10/10 game no one ever heard of.

I know stuff like that but only tactical RPG's. Action RPG's everyone already knows because they are so mainstream.

What difference does the time make? In a MOBA I have 4 spells maybe more with items, and it an intense and fun 30 minutes. I'd much rather do that than 50 hours of pressing 2 buttons. People think of mobas as being dumb kids games yet they have a lot more depth than these diablo clones.

Not everyone wants intense action that asks for 100+ apm. Most aRPG are chill experience where you have fun building your character and moving down masses of enemies with 30 apm all that is required.

Well yea but I don't like high apm games either. I just want a middle ground, some action that is better than 2 buttons. To me good action is Street Fighter 2, Dark Messiah, etc. They aren't high apm games you just need to focus and there are more to do than 2 abilities. "ARPGs" you hardly even need to watch the screen.

 

[4249]

some action that is better than 2 buttons

Well, good for you that most, if not all, builds in Grim Dawn use more than 2 buttons. So could you either fuck off with your inane babbling about PoE and other unrelated shit or, you know, start actually talking about Grim Dawn?

 

[ArchAngel]

some action that is better than 2 buttons

Well, good for you that most, if not all, builds in Grim Dawn use more than 2 buttons. So could you either fuck off with your inane babbling about PoE and other unrelated shit or, you know, start actually talking about Grim Dawn?

Do they? I played a fair bit of GD and most builds come down to using 2 buttons 80% of the time with occasional use of another one or two. The current character I play is Elementalist that uses Primal Strike 75% of the time,Primal Strike + Life drain totem 20% of the time, and both+ Flashbang 4% of the time and the rest 1% of the time.
On the other hand, I cannot not watch the screen while playing because missing to cast the life drain totem at the right moment will kill my character.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

Guys, what are you sperging about, all HnS games come down to mashing 2 buttons and chugging potions. Also yanking out power cables if you're hardcorefag.

 

[4249]

some action that is better than 2 buttons

Well, good for you that most, if not all, builds in Grim Dawn use more than 2 buttons. So could you either fuck off with your inane babbling about PoE and other unrelated shit or, you know, start actually talking about Grim Dawn?

Do they? I played a fair bit of GD and most builds come down to using 2 buttons 80% of the time with occasional use of another one or two. The current character I play is Elementalist that uses Primal Strike 75% of the time,Primal Strike + Life drain totem 20% of the time, and both+ Flashbang 4% of the time and the rest 1% of the time.
On the other hand, I cannot not watch the screen while playing because missing to cast the life drain totem at the right moment will kill my character.

So what you're saying is that you use more than 2 buttons and you have to use them properly unless you want to die. Sounds like mindless snoozefest buttonmashing to me .

Some builds off the top of my head without basic attack replacers:
Vit conjurer: Sigil, Doombolt, Curse of Frailty, Blood of Dreeg, Wendigo Totem, Storm Totem, Devouring Swarm.
Phys battlemage: Blitz, War Cry, Overguard, Mirror of Ereoctes, Brutal Shield Slam from component.
2h Highlander Warder: Wendigo Totem, Blitz, War Cry.
DW Saboteur: Flashbang, Shadow Strike, Pneumatic Burst, Blade Barrier.

And I couldn't find that many 2-button builds from the build compendium either. http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36808

I mean if you specifically build a 2-button build when the game certainly allows and even encourages building plenty of builds that utilize more than 2 skills then I don't know if the game's to blame or you.

 

[ArchAngel]

some action that is better than 2 buttons

Well, good for you that most, if not all, builds in Grim Dawn use more than 2 buttons. So could you either fuck off with your inane babbling about PoE and other unrelated shit or, you know, start actually talking about Grim Dawn?

Do they? I played a fair bit of GD and most builds come down to using 2 buttons 80% of the time with occasional use of another one or two. The current character I play is Elementalist that uses Primal Strike 75% of the time,Primal Strike + Life drain totem 20% of the time, and both+ Flashbang 4% of the time and the rest 1% of the time.
On the other hand, I cannot not watch the screen while playing because missing to cast the life drain totem at the right moment will kill my character.

So what you're saying is that you use more than 2 buttons and you have to use them properly unless you want to die. Sounds like mindless snoozefest buttonmashing to me .

Some builds off the top of my head without basic attack replacers:
Vit conjurer: Sigil, Doombolt, Curse of Frailty, Blood of Dreeg, Wendigo Totem, Storm Totem, Devouring Swarm.
Phys battlemage: Blitz, War Cry, Overguard, Mirror of Ereoctes, Brutal Shield Slam from component.
2h Highlander Warder: Wendigo Totem, Blitz, War Cry.
DW Saboteur: Flashbang, Shadow Strike, Pneumatic Burst, Blade Barrier.

And I couldn't find that many 2-button builds from the build compendium either. http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36808

I mean if you specifically build a 2-button build when the game certainly allows and even encourages building plenty of builds that utilize more than 2 skills then I don't know if the game's to blame or you.

You said most.. also I was not talking about literal two button builds, I think I explained very well what I was talking about. If you didn't understand that, that is not my fault.

Anyways, one does not play diablo likes for exciting minute to minute gameplay, there are much better choices for that.

 

[anvi]

some action that is better than 2 buttons

Well, good for you that most, if not all, builds in Grim Dawn use more than 2 buttons. So could you either fuck off with your inane babbling about PoE and other unrelated shit or, you know, start actually talking about Grim Dawn?

3 buttons isn't much better.

 

[GrainWetski]

Never play a game that demands for you to play it three times before finishing your character, it is just a waste of time, especially with the two buttons combat system, doesn't matter the amount of bling your characters has at the end, you would be better served doing something else, there is always something better than to waste time chasing virtual bling and there are better games out there.

If you're going to go down that path, you shouldn't ever play any games at all.

 

[anvi]

Or or or he could just play good games and avoid brainless ones that have boring and mindless minute to minute gameplay that never ever changes.

 

[ArchAngel]

Or or or he could just play good games and avoid brainless ones that have boring and mindless minute to minute gameplay that never ever changes.

I agree, nobody should be playing Dark Souls and similar shit.