KickStarter Grim Dawn

[Sykar]

50% is not enough?

 

[Metro]

Did I stutter?

 

[JasonNH]

played a ranged char way back in alpha to the end of act 1 - enjoyed it immensly

worth getting back into it with a fighter?

I'm playing with a Commando right now (Soldier + Demolitionist]. I'm level 22 or 23 and it's going fairly well. I tend to use a combination of the Demolitionist's Blackwater Cocktail, Blast Shield, and Flashbang with the Soldier's Force Wave, Cadence, and Blade Arc. I'm also running the Vindictive Flame buff from the Demolitionist tree now. I did get raped by one boss in the Burrwitch Outskirts a few levels ago that I need to revisit now that I've finished chapter 1. Not sure if my build is going to be persistently problematic on that one or if my tactics are falling short.

Game is looking good though, and multiplayer was surprisingly smooth with some cosmetic bugs that weren't affecting gameplay.

 

[Ivan]

Blitz+Grenado+ Mehnir's Will+Cadence =

 

[Great Deceiver]

I'm currently using a pure Soldier with max cadence, shockwave and pumped shout. Seems to be working well up until chapter 2 on Veteran (lots of potion abuse though, I'm going broke), but I have to say I now echo the earlier sentiment that the game is really unoptimized, I've been running into some enemy clusters that have brought my framerate really low, even on minimum settings. I have a pretty decent rig and I don't think it should be chugging this much but hey, they might do another optimization pass, I dunno.

Atmosphere-wise it's the best game of its kind out there right now and the itemization is pretty decent too, a lot of little modifiers (my favourite right now is a mind control weapon) that do alter the way you play a bit, my character is very straightforward but I still get some enjoyment out of the combat.

I think I've outgrown these sorts of games and I don't have the patience to munchkin everything anymore, but it feels nice to relax and click monsters to death in this setting.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

I want to warn the atmosphere fags. All the merits lies in the graphics and setting. The writing is banal shit boring, to the points where It will make storyfags veterans cringe. cliche stock characters, dyke warriors with attitudes, sassy cocky rogue... Makes me want to join the Chtonics just to get the world rid of this embarrassment. Obviously you can't.

The music isn't great either, cliche stock ARPG music, you will predict the next note.

The quests, the lines, been there done that, and quite cretinous too. Path of exile is better in that respect.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Forgot to add that Grim Dawn has level scaling.

 

[Sykar]

Forgot to add that Grim Dawn has level scaling.

Doesn't bother me in these types of games.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Forgot to add that Grim Dawn has level scaling.

Doesn't bother me that progression is rendered pointless in a game about progression

FTFY

 

[Haba]

Forgot to add that Grim Dawn has level scaling.

Doesn't bother me that progression is rendered pointless in a game about progression

FTFY

Wat? Lay off the Krokodil, GD has the best level scaling there is. Zones have lower and upper caps. If you miss an optional area, you can go back and the enemies and gear haven't become obsolete. You can do a rerun off an earlier boss to get an item drop you missed, while getting XP and challenge.

Not to mention that the zones don't scale during an active session, so you can still clear the entire map without being bothered by the scaling. You even get to be higher level than the mobs in the zone, presuming that you level up during the session.

And since you'll be doing a lot of farming for dynamite (and scrap), you'll want the zones to scale up.

If you absolutely must, you can also visit the early areas that have hit the scaling cap and mow them down like an angry god, but that is pretty pointless (unless you are farming trash gear for your alternative chars, but even then there are better ways to get it) since you're not getting XP and the loot is trash for you.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Forgot to add that Grim Dawn has level scaling.

Doesn't bother me that progression is rendered pointless in a game about progression

FTFY

Wat? Lay off the Krokodil, GD has the best level scaling there is.

Are you clinically retarded?

 

[Haba]

Oh shit man, I must've been. Sorry, let me fix that.

There, much better.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Maximum butthurt detected . Here, let me help you one last time:

There is only one instance of good level scaling in an RPG and that is the absence of it.

 

[Drowed]

Doesn't bother me that progression is rendered pointless in a game about progression

Wat.

People still argue that diablo-like games are about progression?

 

[Renevent]

Forgot to add that Grim Dawn has level scaling.

Doesn't bother me that progression is rendered pointless in a game about progression

FTFY

Wat? Lay off the Krokodil, GD has the best level scaling there is. Zones have lower and upper caps. If you miss an optional area, you can go back and the enemies and gear haven't become obsolete. You can do a rerun off an earlier boss to get an item drop you missed, while getting XP and challenge.

Not to mention that the zones don't scale during an active session, so you can still clear the entire map without being bothered by the scaling. You even get to be higher level than the mobs in the zone, presuming that you level up during the session.

And since you'll be doing a lot of farming for dynamite (and scrap), you'll want the zones to scale up.

If you absolutely must, you can also visit the early areas that have hit the scaling cap and mow them down like an angry god, but that is pretty pointless (unless you are farming trash gear for your alternative chars, but even then there are better ways to get it) since you're not getting XP and the loot is trash for you.

Yup, good explanation. The main thing is areas have ranges, which improve the usefulness an area stays relevant but not making the zones uninteresting. You will still completely out-level areas, and you can still walk into an area with MUCH higher level enemies and get butt raped.

Also, the devs have also mentioned the level scaling in most areas will be tightened up closer to release...the reason why it's a little more aggressive now is because they don't have all the areas/difficulties in yet so they wanted to expand the number of available areas for people to play.

 

[Sykar]

Forgot to add that Grim Dawn has level scaling.

Doesn't bother me that progression is rendered pointless in a game about progression

FTFY

How is it rendered pointless? That areas you go through again aren't brain dead easy?

 

[4249]

The level scaling can also change which monsters you encounter in some areas. For example Dranghouls(Big nasty motherfuckers) start appearing in the first act when you're high enough level.

I'd still prefer that the game had zero level scaling though. The optional areas are especially annoying at the moment as they scale for so long. Stuff like Depraved Sanctuary can be completed with suboptimal gear, but Gutworm and especially SoT really require you to be well geared (atleast on veteran), so you need to grind and in that process level up, making the dungeon even harder for the gear you just grinded. Which means that you should first grind to the max level, so the areas don't scale anymore and then start improving your gear. If Crate wants them to be harder "end game" content, then they should make them high level areas instead of scaling them through half the game.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Forgot to add that Grim Dawn has level scaling.

Doesn't bother me that progression is rendered pointless in a game about progression

FTFY

How is it rendered pointless? That areas you go through again aren't brain dead easy?

This can be fixed with good design. Something that apparently was more prevalent in the 90's. Now these lazy devs cannot be assed to do their jobs. I don't remember Diablo or Diablo 2 having areas that were brain dead easy unless you twinked your character. At the moment leveling up in Grim Dawn is a detriment to your character due to the way how Hit Chance and Critical Hits work. The only progression happens via gear. Level ups are largely meaningless to your characters overall power. What's the point, then? If leveling up doesn't make you more powerful, do you NEED to have level ups in your game? The answer is no.

 

[Renevent]

"What's the point, then? If leveling up doesn't make you more powerful, do you NEED to have level ups in your game? The answer is no."

Say what? Leveling up in Grim Dawn makes you tons more powerful. Leveling makes you more powerful not just in small ways either, but significant numerical ways. A level 30 character with no gear vs a level 1 character with no gear the level 30 character will have a huge increase in just about every metric. HP, raw stats,damage, OA and DA...it's a giant difference. Hit and crit chance is largely based on OA, which can be manually pumped up via leveling (stat points and mastery points) and leveling up skills both passive and active that increase this as well (and there a quite a few skills that affect OA).

 

[4249]

"What's the point, then? If leveling up doesn't make you more powerful, do you NEED to have level ups in your game? The answer is no."

Say what? Leveling up in Grim Dawn makes you tons more powerful. Leveling makes you more powerful not just in small ways either, but significant numerical ways. A level 30 character with no gear vs a level 1 character with no gear the level 30 character will have a huge increase in just about every metric. HP, raw stats, OA and DA...it's a giant difference. Hit and crit chance is largely based on OA, which can be manually pumped up via leveling (stat points and mastery points) and leveling up skills both passive and active that increase this as well (and there a quite a few skills that affect OA).

The issue is that with level scaling the enemies also gain a lot of those raw stats as you level up. While your OA might have risen, so did the enemies DA. So you're progressing mostly through increasing your skill levels when leveling up, which past the point of actually acquiring the skill or transmuter isn't that noticable, and through gaining better gear. You do have the optional stat points you gain at level ups which make a small difference.

The fact that the level scaling is somewhat capped doesn't make it that bad, but it's still annoying.

 

[Renevent]

"What's the point, then? If leveling up doesn't make you more powerful, do you NEED to have level ups in your game? The answer is no."

Say what? Leveling up in Grim Dawn makes you tons more powerful. Leveling makes you more powerful not just in small ways either, but significant numerical ways. A level 30 character with no gear vs a level 1 character with no gear the level 30 character will have a huge increase in just about every metric. HP, raw stats, OA and DA...it's a giant difference. Hit and crit chance is largely based on OA, which can be manually pumped up via leveling (stat points and mastery points) and leveling up skills both passive and active that increase this as well (and there a quite a few skills that affect OA).

The issue is that with level scaling the enemies also gain a lot of those raw stats as you level up. While your OA might have risen, so did the enemies DA. So you're progressing mostly through increasing your skill levels when leveling up, which past the point of actually acquiring the skill or transmuter isn't that noticable, and through gaining better gear. You do have the optional stat points you gain at level ups which make a small difference.

The fact that the level scaling is somewhat capped doesn't make it that bad, but it's still annoying.

It's not "somewhat capped"...it is capped pretty reasonably. If you go back to act I or II with a fully leveled up character you are going to murder the enemies with zero effort...likewise if you wander into the steps of torment at level 25 you are also going to have an extremely difficult time being totally out leveled. As I mentioned before, these caps are going to be further tightened up on release as they wanted to make the areas a tad more "open ended" right now since we don't have all the areas and difficulties in the game yet.

This exists even within the same act...by the time you get halfway to the first boss going back to previous areas will be a cake walk because you will have completely out-leveled those areas.

It's not just stat points either...you also get tons of raw stats from leveling up your mastery points.

 

[4249]

"What's the point, then? If leveling up doesn't make you more powerful, do you NEED to have level ups in your game? The answer is no."

Say what? Leveling up in Grim Dawn makes you tons more powerful. Leveling makes you more powerful not just in small ways either, but significant numerical ways. A level 30 character with no gear vs a level 1 character with no gear the level 30 character will have a huge increase in just about every metric. HP, raw stats, OA and DA...it's a giant difference. Hit and crit chance is largely based on OA, which can be manually pumped up via leveling (stat points and mastery points) and leveling up skills both passive and active that increase this as well (and there a quite a few skills that affect OA).

The issue is that with level scaling the enemies also gain a lot of those raw stats as you level up. While your OA might have risen, so did the enemies DA. So you're progressing mostly through increasing your skill levels when leveling up, which past the point of actually acquiring the skill or transmuter isn't that noticable, and through gaining better gear. You do have the optional stat points you gain at level ups which make a small difference.

The fact that the level scaling is somewhat capped doesn't make it that bad, but it's still annoying.

It's not "somewhat capped"...it is capped pretty reasonably. If you go back to act I or II with a fully leveled up character you are going to murder the enemies with zero effort...likewise if you wander into the steps of torment at level 25 you are also going to have an extremely difficult time being totally out leveled. As I mentioned before, these caps are going to be further tightened up as they wanted to make the areas a tad more "open ended" since we don't have all the areas and difficulties in the game yet.

This exists even within the same act...by the time you get halfway to the first boss going back to previous areas will be a cake walk because you will have completely out-leveled those areas.

It's not just stat points either...you also get tons of raw stats from leveling up your mastery points.

The basic issue still stands that the enemies gaining stats nullifies progress you gain from leveling up. At the moment I think the scaling ranges are around 5-10 levels on normal areas. I think there's still plenty to tighten there and I hope Crate does it.

And like I mentioned in my earlier post, Gutworm for example can be first encountered around level ~10-15 and he stops scaling at lvl 39. And SoT scales over the level cap at the moment as well. Neither of those are supposed to be done without good gear, which leaves the options of being extremely lucky or grinding your way to max level to start grinding for gear. I could understand them as harder challenges when the levelling has stopped or atleast slowed down significantly, but in their current form they are pretty stupid. I don't understand why they aren't high level from the get go, other than this still being the beta.

 

[Renevent]

I personally don't think that's true, but you are entitled to it. Leveling up even while in the same basic area can have pretty significant effects. Even if you are just pumping 3 points into a mastery that level that will pump up your health (at least at early levels) fairly nicely and give you a nice boost in dmg/oa/da depending on what mastery you have.

Regarding Gut Worm/SoT I'm not understanding...isn't the fact you can encounter them early and be completely unprepared a *good* thing? I also think you overstate the player's options in those circumstances...Gut Worm for instance can be beaten even by a lower level character with the right tactics...it's not easy but it's doable.

 

[Haba]

Most of this will change anyway once they do the balancing pass after finalizing content. The game definitely could use more challenge dungeons that you can't tackle until the very endgame, Depraved Sanctuary is a bit too easy those days.

And of course in an ideal world the early zones would encounter dynamic changes in end game, explaining the tougher monsters now inhabiting them...

 

[4249]

I personally don't think that's true, but you are entitled to it. Leveling up even while in the same basic area can have pretty significant effects. Even if you are just pumping 3 points into a mastery that level that will pump up your health (at least at early levels) fairly nicely and give you a nice boost in dmg/oa/da depending on what mastery you have.

Regarding Gut Worm/SoT I'm not understanding...isn't the fact you can encounter them early and be completely unprepared a *good* thing? I also think you overstate the player's options in those circumstances...Gut Worm for instance can be beaten even by a lower level character with the right tactics...it's not easy but it's doable.

You could still encounter them early even if they weren't level scaled.

Beating Gutworm(or any other of the harder optional areas) at a lower level requires cheesing or a fairly specific build and good gear. I wouldn't call rolling a ranged character or a summoner and kiting him around for 10 minutes much of a challenge. So in that context it would be more beneficial if they were high level from the get go, so the process of getting that better gear wouldn't actually make them harder for you to do.

Hell, in the earlier betas you could probably clear Depraved Sanctuary naked right after accessing the place by exploiting bugs in Bloody Pox.

edit:
And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they were turned into "end game" content on the release version.