KickStarter Grim Dawn

[ArchAngel]

I was talking about skill, stat system and leagues not about loot/crafting/drops/mobs...

You cannot have one without another. Also skill system comes together with loot system, again you cannot separate that.

 

[Sykar]

It was a nice touch (added in beta after much complaining about how dull the skill trees were), but it didn't save how utterly crap the skill system was anyway. Not being able to put in skill points into your chosen skill each level was some bullshit. You mean I have to wait 10 level ups before I can get my marginal skill/spelll upgrade? Ugh. Who thought that was a good idea?

In D2 you had to wait until 24/30 to get your main skill for many builds and could not even refund skill points. Also you could never have more than minimum level requirement + skill level -1 = char level skill points in your skills, making it very restrictive as well. Made skills you could use as a main build at 12 or 18 quite superior for a while until late game, if even that.

Meh, that was just old design, back when people were still experimenting with the genre and didn't know what was actually good (and even then I thought it was pretty bad design that you had to waste points on skills that didn't benefit you in any way). They eventually fixed it with more intelligent design. First by the addition of synenergies and later by adding in respecing. TL2 had a shitton of absolutely useless skills that you couldn't even add into your rotation so you had to wait a long ass time to get that marginal upgrade that actually did benefit you in some way. It was awful.

Titan's Quest and Grim Dawn does it best so far with the mastery thing. You are given some level of freedom to choose how soon / late you get access to the last tier abilities.

PoE design with skill gems needeing experience is even worse and it's just 2-3 years old. First 10-15 levels go fast, but those last 5 levels are an incredibly dull grind. What makes matters worse is that they have an additional quality up to 20% and if you didn't roll max you have to sell it to the vendor for a level 1 version with 20% quality and RELEVEL the fucking shit all over again.

Diablo 2 is a 15 years old game and kinda one of the first games in this genre after D1. Gaming should move forward and evolve a bit.

(remembers QTE fest console games and sobs in a corner)

But they did evolve. The best thing modern Hack&Slays do is that they got rid of that god awful retarded to hit system. I vividly remember getting to hell with my first barbarian who was around 55 and just COULD NOT HIT A FUCKING ACT 1 ZOMBIE. It was maddening and totally retarded whirlwinding through them a million times and made no sense whatsoever. Never had that problem with my Necro, Sorc, Trap Assa, etc. but come and behold, melees are fucked. To make matters worse it was a HC Barbarian so no easy going back and pump 20 levels into Dex through dull NM Balal running....

 

[Bubbles]

Yes, free-to-play games generally devolve into incredibly unfun grinds. That's how the business model works.

 

[Sykar]

Yes, free-to-play games generally devolve into incredibly unfun grinds. That's how the business model works.

Since subscription models like WoW or EQ did that so much better...

 

[ArchAngel]

But they did evolve. The best thing modern Hack&Slays do is that they got rid of that god awful retarded to hit system. I vividly remember getting to hell with my first barbarian who was around 55 and just COULD NOT HIT A FUCKING ACT 1 ZOMBIE. It was maddening and totally retarded whirlwinding through them a million times and made no sense whatsoever. Never had that problem with my Necro, Sorc, Trap Assa, etc. but come and behold, melees are fucked. To make matters worse it was a HC Barbarian so no easy going back and pump 20 levels into Dex through dull NM Balal running....

I agree with you here. Diablo 2 overdid it with the amount of accuracy you needed for melee characters to hit anything. I remember hating my Zeal Paladin because of it. Probably the main reason why I enjoyed Sorceress and Necro the most.

Grim Dawn still has the hit chance system but it is well done. I never feel in GD that I am missing a lot.

 

[Renevent]

It is well done...OA drives it and that is affected in multiple ways (raw stats, item bonuses, skills, passives, etc) so it's pretty hard to mess up a character so bad that you have too much trouble hitting enemies. The nice thing is if you are a smart player and understand the rules a bit more, you can really boost up the stat and start getting some sick crit damage which is rewarding and cool. So they don't frustrate players who don't understand well how the systems work, and still reward those who dive in a bit deeper.

 

[abija]

Yes, free-to-play games generally devolve into incredibly unfun grinds. That's how the business model works.

Bullshit, free to play has nothing to do with grinding in PoE. The devs made the game they'd love to play, and they really like grinding, that's all there is to it.

 

[ArchAngel]

Yes, free-to-play games generally devolve into incredibly unfun grinds. That's how the business model works.

Bullshit, free to play has nothing to do with grinding in PoE. The devs made the game they'd love to play, and they really like grinding, that's all there is to it.

You are a fool if you think that. It was done to force people to continue playing so they buy some stuff.

 

[Whiran]

You are a fool if you think that. It was done to force people to continue playing so they buy some stuff.

Uhh... buy what in Path of Exile?

This may be a surprise to you but there is a large population of gamers who like to mindlessly grind.

This may clue you in as to why Path of Exile has grinding: the name of the development studio is Grinding Gear Games.

Grinding is a core design mechanism and is totally decoupled from their in-game purchases.

 

[Semper]

Grinding is a core design mechanism and is totally decoupled from their in-game purchases.

well, lots of mats to keep the rng rolling need lots of stash. the most two popular items in their shop are the additional tabs of the shared stash.
one can assume that there's at least some connection.

 

[Martius]

Anyway, there is not much to buy expect maybe extra stash space. You can always make extra characters as mules. Even without that I never ran out of space. Everything else is pretty much just skins or cosmetic effects for skills.

 

[Whiran]

well, lots of mats to keep the rng rolling need lots of stash. the most two popular items in their shop are the additional tabs of the shared stash.
one can assume that there's at least some connection.

You could assume that but I question it.

The amount of inventory and stash space that is given is very very generous.

In Path of Exile it's easy to consolidate items into things that take up very little space. You can do that without trading with players via the shopkeepers.

So, I don't think it's that at all. If they wanted to go that route they should have gone the Marvel Heroes route - limit the stash space at the start and show off all those purchaseable inventory pages that one could get to hold the multitude of runes and the like that are in the game. Interestingly, in Marvel Heroes there are more runes than inventory spaces in a dedicated crafting inventory page. So if you want to keep all the runes for future use you need to buy two dedicated crafting pages.

Path of Exile doesn't do that.

Buying extra stash space is a way to support Path of Exile and get something that one feels is useful aka, has more value than a glowing weapon.

 

[ArchAngel]

You are a fool if you think that. It was done to force people to continue playing so they buy some stuff.

Uhh... buy what in Path of Exile?

This may be a surprise to you but there is a large population of gamers who like to mindlessly grind.

This may clue you in as to why Path of Exile has grinding: the name of the development studio is Grinding Gear Games.

Grinding is a core design mechanism and is totally decoupled from their in-game purchases.

When people put lots of time into something they become emotionally attached. That means they would want to support the devs.
The equation is simple, I am sure you can understand it.

 

[roll-a-die]

Grinding is a core design mechanism and is totally decoupled from their in-game purchases.

well, lots of mats to keep the rng rolling need lots of stash. the most two popular items in their shop are the additional tabs of the shared stash.
one can assume that there's at least some connection.

Eh, no, most of the items used to roll new items, or gen better ones, or buy good items, are 1 slots, of those 1 slot items, the ones worth keeping( there's around 5 and which ones to keep depend on the person. I personally keep Eternal and exalted orbs, Scourings, Mirrors, and Regrets) are kept in stacks of at least ten, the default storage has 4 tabs, of 12x12 slots. You could go for years assuming you never saved gear, without filling those up.

The extra stash space is nice, and also, most importantly CHEAP AS FUCK. 5 dollars gets you 5 extra tabs, at least when I bought them.

 

[abija]

You are a fool if you think that. It was done to force people to continue playing so they buy some stuff.

When people put lots of time into something they become emotionally attached. That means they would want to support the devs.
The equation is simple, I am sure you can understand it.

Get a fucking clue before spewing generic edgy bullshit. PoE is a niche game targeted at a hardcore audience (which includes the devs), not your run of the mill no substance f2p moneygrab.

 

[Whiran]

When people put lots of time into something they become emotionally attached. That means they would want to support the devs.
The equation is simple, I am sure you can understand it.

Your logic, if I can follow it is this:

The devs put grinding into Path of Exile because some people like to grind.

Therefore people would play more.

Because people would play more they'd buy stuff to support the game.

You are, in a nutshell, writing exactly what abija said:

Bullshit, free to play has nothing to do with grinding in PoE. The devs made the game they'd love to play, and they really like grinding, that's all there is to it.

And if that is the case why were you trying to "argue" the point?

You are a fool if you think that. It was done to force people to continue playing so they buy some stuff.

I'm a little baffled here.

 

[ArchAngel]

No, they put grinding to get more people to play it and buy cosmetic items. It goes hand in hand with F2P system. Other normal aRPG (read: not F2P) don't have this bullshit design because you already paid them before you started playing so they don't need these cheap psychological tricks to make you give them money

 

[roll-a-die]

wAT. Just wAT?

 

[thesheeep]

Blah

I smell a very early dumbfuck tag.
Everything is a conspiracy, everything is made to suck money out of your pockets. F2P is the devil. Yadda yadda. Codex credits++.
Are you not bored by yourself?

To be fair, most statements above are actually true for most games. But PoE is one of the very few where it just isn't. It is a fun h&s game where it is not required in the least to spend anything. Of course it is grindy. Every game in that genre is, without any exception. It's just in the nature of the "loot game".
Hell, when I noticed I liked the game and I was browsing the store to support the devs it took me almost 10 minutes to find an item that I did not find completely unneccessary. That is how optional their store is. I was wondering how the hell they earn any money.

Wait... this is a Grim Dawn thread?

 

[Martius]

No, they put grinding to get more people to play it and buy cosmetic items. It goes hand in hand with F2P system. Other normal aRPG (read: not F2P) don't have this bullshit design because you already paid them before you started playing so they don't need these cheap psychological tricks to make you give them money

I feel like its problem of most Diablo clones or inspired games, although there are some examples in different genres (Monster Hunter for example).

 

[sser]

Can we get this PoE shit into the actual PoE thread...?

Poe-poe-poe-poelease.

 

[Hobo Elf]

No, they put grinding to get more people to play it and buy cosmetic items. It goes hand in hand with F2P system. Other normal aRPG (read: not F2P) don't have this bullshit design because you already paid them before you started playing so they don't need these cheap psychological tricks to make you give them money

I feel like its problem of most Diablo clones or inspired games, although there are some examples in different genres (Monster Hunter for example.

How is it a problem? Many people enjoy grindan.

 

[Martius]

I guess that depends on person. Most times I dont have problem with that, maybe expect vanilla Diablo 3 but that game was overall mess.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Vanilla Diablo 3 you're only grindan for the sake of it. You're not acquiring better gear so that you can kill a tough opponent easier. I mean I killed Diablo as a level 2 monk and it was the same experience that I could've gotten even if I was level 50. There was no ultimate goal to work for. Everything was too level scaled in the worst possible way.

 

[ArchAngel]

Blah

I smell a very early dumbfuck tag.
Everything is a conspiracy, everything is made to suck money out of your pockets. F2P is the devil. Yadda yadda. Codex credits++.
Are you not bored by yourself?

To be fair, most statements above are actually true for most games. But PoE is one of the very few where it just isn't. It is a fun h&s game where it is not required in the least to spend anything. Of course it is grindy. Every game in that genre is, without any exception. It's just in the nature of the "loot game".
Hell, when I noticed I liked the game and I was browsing the store to support the devs it took me almost 10 minutes to find an item that I did not find completely unneccessary. That is how optional their store is. I was wondering how the hell they earn any money.

Wait... this is a Grim Dawn thread?

Yes, it is a GD thread. So all you PoE fags can get out already.