Interview Guido Henkel Talks Thorvalla at Gamers.de

[Alex]

Oh, ffs. Without game mechanics there would be only LARP.

I've seen very good P&P campaigns being played on freeform, that is, without formal game rules. Note that it isn't the same as having no rules, as there were specifics about how they did things. For example, what happens in the game fiction must respect the reality of the setting. Dragons were big and scary in their game, so you couldn't just walk to it and kill it with a sword, and expect to succeed.

However, freeform games can be pretty crappy if the players are not in the same wavelength. Also, this is completely unsuitable for CRPGs. The strength of freeform is in allowing people to make decisions about how the game goes without being hindered by systems that may not fit the current situation. In a CRPG, that will always be a problem, and doing away with formal rules is probably just and excuse to make the game like a linear adventure.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Read the rest and quote all of it. I didn't say that game mechanics are not important, just that is is only a part of what makes a good RPG. Ffs Call of Shity Duty has good game mechanics. That doesn't make it an RPG

Fucking retarded newfags.

"RPG" mechanics, not "game" mechanics, fucktard.

 

[Grunker]

Oh, ffs. Without game mechanics there would be only LARP.

I've seen very good P&P campaigns being played on freeform, that is, without formal game rules. Note that it isn't the same as having no rules, as there were specifics about how they did things. For example, what happens in the game fiction must respect the reality of the setting. Dragons were big and scary in their game, so you couldn't just walk to it and kill it with a sword, and expect to succeed.

However, freeform games can be pretty crappy if the players are not in the same wavelength. Also, this is completely unsuitable for CRPGs. The strength of freeform is in allowing people to make decisions about how the game goes without being hindered by systems that may not fit the current situation. In a CRPG, that will always be a problem, and doing away with formal rules is probably just and excuse to make the game like a linear adventure.

Even freeform P&P campaigns have cause and effect - there is no such thing in an RPG where the game mechanics don't support the RPG, namely because we don't have a fucking AI.

Dragons were big and scary in their game, so you couldn't just walk to it and kill it with a sword, and expect to succeed.

That's a game mechanic. There's a different between formal and informal rules and the abscence of rules.

 

[Rake]

Read the rest and quote all of it. I didn't say that game mechanics are not important, just that is is only a part of what makes a good RPG. Ffs Call of Shity Duty has good game mechanics. That doesn't make it an RPG

Fucking retarded newfags.

"RPG" mechanics, not "game" mechanics, fucktard.

You don't consider the dialog system or dialog for that matter a part of the RPG mechanics?

 

[FeelTheRads]

You don't consider the dialog system or dialog for that matter a part of the RPG mechanics?

What? What dialog system exactly? I was referring to your retarded "CoD has good mechanics but it's not an RPG". So, what, if CoD had a dialog system it would be an RPG?

Regardless, if the dialog system doesn't use skills and it's just picking choices then no, it's not an RPG mechanic.

 

[Alex]

(...snip)

That's a game mechanic. There's a different between formal and informal rules and the abscence of rules.

I know, I said so in my post, Grunker!

Even freeform P&P campaigns have cause and effect - there is no such thing in an RPG where the game mechanics don't support the RPG, namely because we don't have a fucking AI.

Like I implied in my post, I think the closest analogue of not having formal rules in a CRPG would be an adventure game, with possibly many different outcomesand ways to solve the problems. Personally, I think such hypothetical game could be fun, except that people who would be interested in removing "rules" from CRPGs are usually the same crowd that want to tell their story, rather than letting the player interact with a world.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah, it sounds a bit too shifty and hypothetical for me. The point I was trying to make was that Rake either brofisted you for the wrong reason, or we disagree strongly; there is, as of yet, no such thing as a good cRPG that didn't rely on its mechanics, and there are tons of shit ones that didn't.

 

[Alex]

I don't know if there was or if there wasn't, but I have never seen it, so no disagreement from he there. I was just replying with this cause I thought it would be an interesting thing to know. If you guys would like to know more about that campaign, the guy who ran it talks about it in his blog here.

 

[LeStryfe79]

I've played PnP games where the outcome of nearly every roll was clearly fabricated by the guy running it. This is especially funny because our usual GM is an attorney by profession, but I'd swear the only mechanic he followed was how many beers he'd drank.

 

[Rake]

You don't consider the dialog system or dialog for that matter a part of the RPG mechanics?

What? What dialog system exactly? I was referring to your retarded "CoD has good mechanics but it's not an RPG". So, what, if CoD had a dialog system it would be an RPG?

Regardless, if the dialog system doesn't use skills and it's just picking choices then no, it's not an RPG mechanic.

I agree. My previous comment was a reply in the comment that every game that has dialog is not a true RPG. I used the "game mechanics" phrase because i don't believe that you can have RPG mechanics without dialog.In a solid RPG system the parts of the said system are interconnected. Of course the dialog system should use your stats and skills. Every option in the game should use them.But an cRPG without dialog at all? How is that suppose to work? Without dialog you cant have choices and as a result consequences, and that is an essencial part of an RPG.If you disagree with that i wait to hear your arguments.Can you or somebody else point me an RPG without dialog at all? If you can and is good i stand corrected.

 

[Rake]

Yeah, it sounds a bit too shifty and hypothetical for me. The point I was trying to make was that Rake either brofisted you for the wrong reason, or we disagree strongly; there is, as of yet, no such thing as a good cRPG that didn't rely on its mechanics, and there are tons of shit ones that didn't.

What about Planescape:Torment? It doesn't rely on its mechanics, if you don't consider the dialog part of the RPG mechanics

 

[Grunker]

Yeah, it sounds a bit too shifty and hypothetical for me. The point I was trying to make was that Rake either brofisted you for the wrong reason, or we disagree strongly; there is, as of yet, no such thing as a good cRPG that didn't rely on its mechanics, and there are tons of shit ones that didn't.

What about Planescape:Torment? It doesn't rely on its mechanics, if you don't consider the dialog part of the RPG mechanics

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...t-eternity-thread.75947/page-431#post-2389945

 

[tuluse]

I just want to point out that Call of Duty has horrid mechanics.

Unlimited re-spawning enemies that you literally have to run directly towards to get rid of, and magically disappear behind you. Auto-regen health which is the bane of good level design. Scripted to fuck and back. Millions of guns everywhere you so you never have to worry about ammo conservation.

 

[tuluse]

Without dialog you cant have choices and as a result consequences, and that is an essencial part of an RPG.

Wat.

I don't think you know what choices are consequences are, but you definitely don't *need* dialog to have them.

 

[Rake]

Without dialog you cant have choices and as a result consequences, and that is an essencial part of an RPG.

Wat.

I don't think you know what choices are consequences are, but you definitely don't *need* dialog to have them.

Maybe not but i don't know of any game without dialog that has them. Care to enlighten me please?

You are right sorry. i only thought it from a storyline perpective.But my question remains.Have you played a good rpg without some kind of dialog?

 

[Rake]

I just want to point out that Call of Duty has horrid mechanics.

Unlimited re-spawning enemies that you literally have to run directly towards to get rid of, and magically disappear behind you. Auto-regen health which is the bane of good level design. Scripted to fuck and back. Millions of guns everywhere you so you never have to worry about ammo conservation.

For an RPG surely. But for a shooter? I know people who play only shooters and said that it has good mechanics.I can't know as i don't like FPS.Anyway it doesn't matter.I only mention it as an examble,not so good in retrospective

 

[tuluse]

It has awful mechanics for a shooter. CoD is the pits, appealing to people who can't tell what a good game is.

 

[Moribund]

Yeah, it sounds a bit too shifty and hypothetical for me. The point I was trying to make was that Rake either brofisted you for the wrong reason, or we disagree strongly; there is, as of yet, no such thing as a good cRPG that didn't rely on its mechanics, and there are tons of shit ones that didn't.

What about Planescape:Torment? It doesn't rely on its mechanics, if you don't consider the dialog part of the RPG mechanics

It has decent mechanics, though. If they were crap I wouldn't have played it through. First time through I just gave up but I tried again when I saw the rave reviews by internets.

If combat and party creation is really 100% filler, I have to wonder why you play games at all, it must be horrible.

 

[Rake]

Yeah, it sounds a bit too shifty and hypothetical for me. The point I was trying to make was that Rake either brofisted you for the wrong reason, or we disagree strongly; there is, as of yet, no such thing as a good cRPG that didn't rely on its mechanics, and there are tons of shit ones that didn't.

What about Planescape:Torment? It doesn't rely on its mechanics, if you don't consider the dialog part of the RPG mechanics

It has decent mechanics, though. If they were crap I wouldn't have played it through. First time through I just gave up but I tried again when I saw the rave reviews by internets.

If combat and party creation is really 100% filler, I have to wonder why you play games at all, it must be horrible.

I never said that combat and party creation is 100% filler. I gave up on Arcanum 3 times because of the combat before i finally finished it. But i also don't think that dialog and story ia a game is 100% filler and LARPing as it was implied on your previous post. A balance must be found. I don't have an isue with someone being a storyfag,combatfag or both.Its a matter of preference.But i find strange when someone completly dismises one of the two.

 

[l3loodAngel]

I like how old fags pick on a new fag even though he has a point. If you strip away story and meaningful C&C you are left with Oblivion or Mass affect. I am not sure that any amount of combat complexity would save those 2. I also gave up on Arcanum when I understood that my combat choices can't influence the outcome of the battle as the battles are only comparison of stats.

Have fun fighting round the world.

 

[Grunker]

I like how old fags pick on a new fag even though he has a point. If you strip away story and meaningful C&C you are left with Oblivion or Mass affect.

Fuck you. Don't fucking tell me Wizardry, Pool of Radiance or Temple of Elemental Evil are Oblivion or Mass Effect.

 

[Moribund]

I like how old fags pick on a new fag even though he has a point. If you strip away story and meaningful C&C you are left with Oblivion or Mass affect. I am not sure that any amount of combat complexity would save those 2. I also gave up on Arcanum when I understood that my combat choices can't influence the outcome of the battle as the battles are only comparison of stats.

Have fun fighting round the world.

Ah, so your opinion isn't worth the ePaper it's written on, then.

 

[l3loodAngel]

I like how old fags pick on a new fag even though he has a point. If you strip away story and meaningful C&C you are left with Oblivion or Mass affect.

Fuck you. Don't fucking tell me Wizardry, Pool of Radiance or Temple of Elemental Evil are Oblivion or Mass Effect.

Then you don't fucking tell me that FO:BOS is not the best RPG ever created, OK. Interplay did not finish Van Burren, but finished BOS. Many people including myself would like that situation reversed. Maybe you smart ass know why?

I like how old fags pick on a new fag even though he has a point. If you strip away story and meaningful C&C you are left with Oblivion or Mass affect. I am not sure that any amount of combat complexity would save those 2. I also gave up on Arcanum when I understood that my combat choices can't influence the outcome of the battle as the battles are only comparison of stats.

Have fun fighting round the world.

Ah, so your opinion isn't worth the ePaper it's written on, then.

A statement definitely worth it's weight in words.

 

[Grunker]

Then you don't fucking tell me that FO:BOS is not the best RPG ever created, OK.

"If Temple of Elemental Evil is a good RPG then FO:BOS is the best RPG ever created."

ok

 

[Mrowak]

I like how old fags pick on a new fag even though he has a point. If you strip away story and meaningful C&C you are left with Oblivion or Mass affect.

Fuck you. Don't fucking tell me Wizardry, Pool of Radiance or Temple of Elemental Evil are Oblivion or Mass Effect.

Hmm... Well I think the problem lies in the common misconception many Codexers succumbed to and Rake simply cannot challenge very well.

It's true that mechanics are an integral part of every RPG. However RPGs are *not* about the mechanics. RPGs are about many other things - exploration, progression, story, adventure, combat, setting, and yes - playing desired role as well. In other words mechanics are to facilitate what a given RPG is about (most). If they manage to succeed they are good mechanics that create good gameplay.

In this sense game mechanics are subservient to their function. They must fulfill it, or they are crap.