Interview Guido Henkel Talks Thorvalla at Gamers.de

[Grunker]

Mechanics are what makes each and every one of the things you listed work, except maybe setting. So no, I disagree with you. You also have games like ToEE where setting is literally irrelevant. Wizardry too, the setting and story in that one were derp as fuck, I had zero interest in it. Yet I liked the game.

 

[Mrowak]

Mechanics are what makes each and every one of the things you listed work, except maybe setting.

That's what I meant. If mechanics cannot make at least some of those things are listed work (depending on the focus of the game) they are crap. Look at the mechanics in PS:T. It's system cannot support good combat, but it's very simplistic mechanics are enough to make a whole range of diplomatic approaches work and create gameplay which is legendary even in these parts (while combat is still universally loathed).

So no, I disagree with you. You also have games like ToEE where setting is literally irrelevant.

Agreed. But you also have BaK where setting is highlighted at every corner. It's just different focus.

Also ToEE is example of the game with robust game mechanics that are not supported by gameplay very well. They could have been used to create interesting exploration, combat and adventure, but they are misused and buggy. Hit level 5 and it will turn out that the gameplay in ToEE pretty much sucks.

Wizardry too, the setting and story in that one were derp as fuck, I had zero interest in it. Yet I liked the game.

Two things. First, different focus of the game. Second, setting and story, however derpy they were, were still a must if only to support *adventure*. Otherwise the game would be in the void about killing polygons and changing numbers, and thus it would not be an RPG.

 

[Rake]

I like how old fags pick on a new fag even though he has a point. If you strip away story and meaningful C&C you are left with Oblivion or Mass affect.

Fuck you. Don't fucking tell me Wizardry, Pool of Radiance or Temple of Elemental Evil are Oblivion or Mass Effect.

NO but the main difference is that the first 3 have good combat while the other two crap. But if you strip combat away i can't see huge improvement between Oblivion and Pool of Radiance.
Let's say that Oblivion had TOEE combat. Would you consider it the best RPG ever? After all it would be many hours of good combat.For me it won't bacause combat is not the only problem with the game

 

[Grunker]

Let's say that Oblivion had TOEE combat. Would you consider it the best RPG ever?

No, but I'd consider it a damned good one. Without level-scaling, of course, but that's also a mechanic.

First, different focus of the game.

I never said games couldn't have different focus, or that combat always had to be the central mechanic? I said that a great RPG could very well have great combat as its only good mechanic.

Otherwise the game would be in the void about killing polygons and changing numbers, and thus it would not be an RPG.

I'm fine with RPGs that almost approach that. I think Wizardry's world, characters and story are more to its detriment.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Then you don't fucking tell me that FO:BOS is not the best RPG ever created, OK.

"If Temple of Elemental Evil is a good RPG then FO:BOS is the best RPG ever created."

ok

Game is a sum of it's parts, but you take one thing out of it and jump to conclusions. Every player intuitively or consciously uses a criteria to judge the game. There are at least 6 components for me (listed without rank), although many people may have a similar list, but with different weights.

1) Setting.
2) Character/combat system.
3) Encounter design.
4) C&C.
5) Story.
6) Visual appeal

People with similar lists would have trouble backing Thorvallah and it may be one of the reasons why it failed. If you, however, attribute 80% to one component you will get extremely weird results.

 

[Grunker]

Allow me quote something:

How to classify an RPG?
This remains the first and last question of this report, for as we delve in to the different actors trying to influence what an RPG is, we will need a working definition to choose which games to include in our analysis and which not to.
The first point to be made about these classifications is that they can be divided into two subcategories: Those trying to define the game by its semantics and fictional world and those trying to define the game by how it is played (its mechanics).
A couple of examples of the first could be categories such as science fiction, fantasy or punk-gothic whereas examples of the later could be real-time strategy, first-person shooter or role playing game.
As such two games could share one of these properties, and still vary widely from each other, as for example seen with Warcraft (a real time strategy game set in a fantasy setting) and World of Warcraft (a role playing game set in the exact same setting).
It is thusly important to remember that the definition RPG is one given by merit of its mechanics and not by the fictional world which the player inhabits.

Agree/disagree?

So the question is not "what is an RPG", but way before that: "Before we discuss what an RPG is, we have to look at which factors would be important in such a discussion."

 

[Rake]

First, different focus of the game.

I never said games couldn't have different focus, or that combat always had to be the central mechanic? I said that a great RPG could very well have great combat as its only good mechanic.

I quess this is where i disagree. For me a game that has combat (and character creation as its interconnected) as its only good mechanics can be a great game but not a great RPG

 

[Rake]

Otherwise the game would be in the void about killing polygons and changing numbers, and thus it would not be an RPG.

I'm fine with RPGs that almost approach that. I think Wizardry's world, characters and story are more to its detriment.

Thats not an RPG or even a game.Its an intellectual exersise in character and party creation followed by simple testing on how well you did it.

Nothing wrong with that i wouldn't classified it as an RPG

 

[FeelTheRads]

But an cRPG without dialog at all?

Right, so you just showed yourself as someone who started playing RPGs a couple of years ago. With that alone you essentially exclude the bulk or RPGs.

How is that suppose to work?

If your definition of RPG is "HURR I"M GOOD I SAY BYE I"M BAD I SAY FUCK OFF", then I guess it doesn't work. But that's not what RPGs are about.

Without dialog you cant have choices and as a result consequences, and that is an essencial part of an RPG.

Sure you can. Character creation offers tons of choices, playing the game offers tons of consequences based on those choices.

Can you or somebody else point me an RPG without dialog at all?

How about, since you're a newfag who can't bother to actually search, you point me to that huge amount of games that you think are RPGs because they have dialog with C&C? So.. Fallout 1&2, Torment... umm... oh right, I hear The Witcher and Alpha Popamole are great RPGs.

Nothing wrong with that i wouldn't classified it as an RPG

Ah, right, again you essentially exclude the bulk of RPGs.
Fuck off.

 

[Rake]

How about, since you're a newfag who can't bother to actually search, you point me to that huge amount of games that you think are RPGs because they have dialog with C&C? So.. Fallout 1&2, Torment... umm... oh right, I hear The Witcher and Alpha Popamole are great RPGs.

Baldur's Gate 2
Planescape:Torment
Fallout 2
Fallout 1
Baldur's Gate 1
Arcanum
Icewind Dale1
Icewind Dale 2
Bloodlines
Betrayal at Krondor
TOEE
Realms of Arkania: Shadows over Riva
Realms of Arkania: Star Trail

I like them roughly in that order

Also, i'm 23 years old.Of course i started playing RPGs a couple of years ago if by a couple you mean 6. What of it?
As for the bulk of RPGs that are in the void about killing polygons and changing numbers i haven't played them.Are they better than my examples?If so and you recoment them i quess i'll try them

 

[Grunker]

You could start by playing Wizardry 8, Knights of the Chalice and Pool of Radiance.

 

[Rake]

I have played Pool of Radiance. Good game overall and i enjoyed it but i don't put it next to baldur's gate or fallouts.
I'll try Knights of the Chalice after i finish wasteland. Wizardry 8 i'll pass not of any fault of the game but of a personal peeve of mine.I hate first person view.Or even over the shoulder.Bloodlines is the only FP game i managed to finish but i have never replayed because of the perspective. It's a game i absolutely loathed the gameplay but loved the story/setting/atmosphere.Srill is one of my favorite games

 

[Grunker]

I have played Pool of Radiance. Good game overall and i enjoyed it but i don't put it next to baldur's gate or fallouts.

Me neither (it's not on my top25 list). But we were discussing whether near-polygon combat games could be good RPGs. And it PoR is a good RPG.

 

[Rake]

I have played Pool of Radiance. Good game overall and i enjoyed it but i don't put it next to baldur's gate or fallouts.

Me neither (it's not on my top25 list). But we were discussing whether near-polygon combat games could be good RPGs. And it PoR is a good RPG.

But it had dialog and a story,even if it was bare-boned.If the game started in the midle of the dungeon with only the objective "get out of here" i wouldn't have stack with it after the first few battles.Propably i would just restart the game again and again to try new parties. I anderstand your point. I consider story more importand than gameplay.you like the opposite.But i don't consider a game with a storyline but 100%filler combat like dragon age a good RPG. thats why i don't agree with your opinion that a game with absolutly no story but good combat can be an excelent RPG or even more like Moribund said the only form of RPG that is not decline

 

[Grunker]

But it had dialog and a story,even if it was bare-boned.

Both were token.

If the game started in the midle of the dungeon with only the objective "get out of here" i wouldn't have stack with it after the first few battles.

Eye of the Beholder are OK games, and it is most definetely your own problem if you can't handle games that focus more on one aspect of this great genre than another. Legends of Grimrock is a new, fine RPG with the "get out" attitude. It is completely subjective and has nothing to do with your rants on what makes an RPG.

What you are doing is saying "I like this" and then concluding "thus this is what RPG is". It is the ultimate faggotry, and something newfags always do when they come here. I did too, but I didn't cling to this faulty way of arguing in the face of as much reason as you seem to be determined to do now.

I consider story more importand than gameplay.you like the opposite

No, you still don't get it. I am a storyfag. I play The Witcher and The Witcher II because even though I think the combat is pretty meh, I'm a total sucker for their story.

But i don't consider a game with a storyline but 100%filler combat like dragon age a good RPG

You might not, but your opinion is fucking irrelevant in a discussion about genre-definitions.

thats why i don't agree with your opinion that a game with absolutly no story but good combat can be an excelent RPG

It's not my opinion. My opinion is that Baldur's Gate II is the greatest fucking game of all-time because of how it balanced adventure, combat and progression. A genre-definition has nothing to do with opinion. And don't fucking tell me everything's subjective and relative, or I'll quote Plato on your ass:

My opinion is: Truth must be absolute and that you Mr. Protagoras, clinging to relativism, are absolutely in error. Since this is indeed my opinion, then you must concede that it is true according to your philosophy.

Of course you can have set genre-definitions or the subject or literature would be irrelevant.

 

[Rake]

But it had dialog and a story,even if it was bare-boned.

Both were token.

If the game started in the midle of the dungeon with only the objective "get out of here" i wouldn't have stack with it after the first few battles.

Eye of the Beholder are OK games, and it is most definetely your own problem if you can't handle games that focus more on one aspect of this great genre than another. Legends of Grimrock is a new, fine RPG with the "get out" attitude. It is completely subjective and has nothing to do with your rants on what makes an RPG.

What you are doing is saying "I like this" and then concluding "thus this is what RPG is". It is the ultimate faggotry, and something newfags always do when they come here. I did too, but I didn't cling to this faulty way of arguing in the face of as much reason as you seem to be determined to do now.

I consider story more importand than gameplay.you like the opposite

No, you still don't get it. I am a storyfag. I play The Witcher and The Witcher II because even though I think the combat is pretty meh, I'm a total sucker for their story.

But i don't consider a game with a storyline but 100%filler combat like dragon age a good RPG

You might not, but your opinion is fucking irrelevant in a discussion about genre-definitions.

thats why i don't agree with your opinion that a game with absolutly no story but good combat can be an excelent RPG

It's not my opinion. My opinion is that Baldur's Gate II is the greatest fucking game of all-time because of how it balanced adventure, combat and progression. A genre-definition has nothing to do with opinion. And don't fucking tell me everything's subjective and relative, or I'll quote Plato on your ass:

My opinion is: Truth must be absolute and that you Mr. Protagoras, clinging to relativism, are absolutely in error. Since this is indeed my opinion, then you must concede that it is true according to your philosophy.

Of course you can have set genre-definitions or the subject or literature would be irrelevant.

Well, with this post i agree. You and others said that you can have an RPG without story and i accept that.My problem was more with Moribund's opinion that a game that has dialog is not a true RPG.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Baldur's Gate 2
Planescape:Torment
Fallout 2
Fallout 1
Baldur's Gate 1
Arcanum
Icewind Dale1
Icewind Dale 2
Bloodlines
Betrayal at Krondor
TOEE
Realms of Arkania: Shadows over Riva
Realms of Arkania: Star Trail

The fuck? Some of those simply have dialog as in "you talk to people" and many of them don't have any C&C from dialog. So, any game where you talk to people is an RPG. Got it.

But it had dialog

Ah, OK, so you've actually played PoR2.

 

[Rake]

Baldur's Gate 2
Planescape:Torment
Fallout 2
Fallout 1
Baldur's Gate 1
Arcanum
Icewind Dale1
Icewind Dale 2
Bloodlines
Betrayal at Krondor
TOEE
Realms of Arkania: Shadows over Riva
Realms of Arkania: Star Trail

The fuck? Some of those simply have dialog as in "you talk to people" and many of them don't have any C&C from dialog. So, any game where you talk to people is an RPG. Got it.

But it had dialog

Ah, OK, so you've actually played PoR2.

Which of the above you don't corsider an RPG and why?

 

[Moribund]

Looks like you don't even know what dialog is either.