Preview Hammer & Sickle preview at Firing Squad

[Atrokkus]

All the pro-US stuff is rather off-putting as well. Let's face it, Russia did the most (given the number of casualties and so on) to defeat the Germans, but Hollywood tries to make you think that the Americans won that part of the war.

Although I agree that Russia did the most, I still find such comparisons immoral and insulting somewhat. We were allied, US/British and Russian troops were happy to meet each other on the now-defeated agressor's lands.
Everyone contributed to the victory. And I think that even those atomic strikes were justified (alhtough, it would have been better if they used tactical, limited-power, bombs)

 

[kris]

Everyone contributed to the victory. And I think that even those atomic strikes were justified (alhtough, it would have been better if they used tactical, limited-power, bombs)

The Japanese where incredible stubborn. No use in talking figures, but I am sure that the civilian casaulties for Japan would have been much higher if USA tried to conventional bomb them into submission. even worse with a land invasion. The real need for the second Abomb is dubious though.

The fun thing about playing as the axis powers is explained by a look at the map. These relative small countries fought many countries and many humongous countries. Soviet dwarfed all Axis powers alone. Being small and attacking big is funnier than being big and crushing small.

 

[dunduks]

The Japanese where incredible stubborn. No use in talking figures, but I am sure that the civilian casaulties for Japan would have been much higher if USA tried to conventional bomb them into submission. even worse with a land invasion. The real need for the second Abomb is dubious though.

Yeah its funny you mention that, becouse before bombings, Japan was trying to sign truce, they already had given up when USA bombed them.

 

[Balor]

Well, question is, US wanted unconditional truce.
Translation from diplomatical to English:
"You will now do whatever we'll tell you, up to and including jump when we'll say 'frog' - or we'll turn your country into radioactive wasteland."
Japan chose the former... and, as it seems, it worked out quite nice, heh.
Perhaps, even better, then if US made that 'conditional' truce with Japan w/o bombing it first... who knows.
You see now, violence, even such wanton as dropping nukes, can solve things .
However, if it worked once, under very specific circumstances, it does not mean that it will work again, under completely different ones.
"World is a complicated place" (c).
And for the old "Russia vs World" discussion... oh, fuck it. It all boils down to subjectivism, and you cannot argue with that, cause every side is right, in it's own way.
I'm a Satanist, and Pride and Power are among the key aspects of it, so you understand that I'm, kinda, not sharing the 'turn the other cheek' idea.
*shrugs*
That kidna explains my viewpoint. Others may think otherwise... especially those who have interests in Russia being weak - it's logical and understandable... but it's not important for us, Russians.
We will further our agenda - you are free to further yours. Time will judge.
Simple, huh?

 

[littleboy]

Frankly I like playing the evil charicter in videogames especialy in role-playing games, lets me get out a little frustration from having to deal with the public so much.

I think a lot of people (incuding me) have a bit of a problem with russia beacause it seems like they have never really owned up to the amount of attrocites commited in its name.

 

[Balor]

Atrocities? In the name of Russia? Name some in particular?

 

[Shagnak]

Bad VODKA

It has killed the livers of many a peasant :D

 

[EEVIAC]

Remembeing back on my drinking days, the worst vodka I've ever had was actually made in Australia. I think it was called Kirov. Here's a brief review I found on the net -

• "Cheap and nasty Australian domestic vodka. It might be cheap, but it's not value for money. If you want to vomit, go for it. I'm not rating Raspberry Kirov cause I'm not going to try it. I feel sick thinking about it."

The New Zealand vodka's aren't much better.

Come to think of it, you'd probably enjoy the Shrine To Spirits page Shaggy. Click me!

 

[Shagnak]

The New Zealand vodka's aren't much better.

Possibly not "in general"; but one of the best Vodkas on the market today is 42 Below, made in NZ. I think it might end up in snobby niteclubs in the UK n stuff.
It is made primarily for the export market, and even in the country of its origin it is almost double the expense of the standard shite.
I think they even make versions that are suffused with real fruit stuff for the dance faggots. I must admit I have had it (and at the expense it is, you only drink it throat-scorchingly straight) and rather liked it.

But really, I'm a bourbon fella meself :wink:

 

[dunduks]

Still the best vodka is from Russia, my personal favourite is "Русский стандарт" ("Russian Standard").

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Atrocities? In the name of Russia? Name some in particular?

The birth of Aptyp.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Atrocities? In the name of Russia? Name some in particular?

Most everything Stalin did.

 

[littleboy]

well this is going to be long
from http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
where he lists sorces
so we have

Russian Civil War (1917-22)

Mastering Twentieth Century Russian History by Norman Lowe (2002)
TOTAL: 7,000,000 to 10,000,000
Red Army
Battle: 632,000
Disease: 581,000
Whites: 1,290,000 battle + disease
White Terror: "tens of thousands"
Red Terror
Executed: 50-200,000
Died in prison or killed in revolts: 400,000
Typhoid + typhus
1919: 890,000
1920: >1M

Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53)

Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
Cited in Nove:
Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s

And those don't count the numbers killed after 53 as political disdents, innocent prisoners, intellectuals, nor those killed in ajacent territores (polland, the balkins, afganistan, etc.)

ya those deaths.

 

[Jed]

Any powerful country has a few atrocities in the closet. Here are some of America's:

Colonization of the Native Americans: 8-15 million seems to be a credible conservative estimate
American-Philippine War: 16,000 Philipino military dead; 250,000 to 1,000,000 Philipino civilians dead
Iran, 1953: CIA overthrows democratic government of Mossadegh (Operation Ajax); reinstalls the Shah, which eventually leads to the 1979 Islamic Revolution, the repercussions of which we are still dealing with today in one form or another (ahem, "War on Terror")
Guatemala, 1954: 200,000 dead
Vietnam, 1950-1973: 2 million killed; 50,000 civilians tortured & murdered by CIA & military intelligence (Operation Phoenix)
Cambodia, 1955-1973: 600,000 civilians killed (Viet Nam war spillover)
Laos, 1957-1973: 50,000 civilians killed (more Viet Nam carnage-creep)
Chile, 1973: CIA backs coup against Allende; Pinochet junta kills over 3,000, thousands more arrested and tortured (Colin Powell publicly apologizes in 2003)
Nicaragua, 1981-90: CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution; result: 50,000 murdered
Panama, 1989: Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed
El Salvador, 1981-92: Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash; long-term result: 75,000 murdered and destruction of popular movement
Afganistan, 2001-?: More than 3,700 civilians (IOU?)
Iraq 2003-?: 25,000 civilians dead

(Cue Saint to appear and call me a "commie-pinko" for citing history.)

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Note that Guatemala was over a fucking fruit company, just to put things in perspective.

 

[littleboy]

I wasn't disputing the fact that other countries have and continue to do barbaric things to the citizens of their own and other countries but Balor was coming across like he thought nothing horrific had happend in the U.S.S.R. when in fact it was right up there in civilians killed with Nazi germany and comunest china and has never really owned up to there culpability. A nation and a people should be brave and mature enough to accept there role in the horrors of the past, my own country canada has stolen land from the native inhabitants interd the polish and others during the first world war striping them of there rights and possesions doing the same to the japanese during the second world war, race riots at the turn of the century (against asians) in vancouver, the trial of Louis Rieal (sp?), and recently a complete lack of support for our troops and general in Rawanda being too chickenshit to stop the slaugter when we said we would. It's not like similar actions in other parts of the world make our own mistakes any less wrong but they sould at least be admitted and remeberd.

 

[Jed]

Note that Guatemala was over a fucking fruit company, just to put things in perspective.

Hey, ain't no goddamn commies gonna keep American's from getting their Dole Fruit Bowls on the cheap!

Canada interned the Poles duing WWI? Don't you mean Ukrainians?

 

[littleboy]

i belive it was anyone from the general area of eastern europe that they thought was "a troublemaker"

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Any powerful country has a few atrocities in the closet. Here are some of America's:

I think the big difference here is killing people in war versus just killing your own people because they think a little different than you do.

Colonization of the Native Americans: 8-15 million seems to be a credible conservative estimate

Does this count North and South America? I seriously doubt there were 15 million injuns in North America at that time.

 

[Atrokkus]

littleboy I agree. Every big country has done a lot of cruelties, just to earn their standing.

 

[Balor]

Littleboy, are you literate?
I ask about atrocities of RUSSIA, not USSR. Because you said you have problem with 'Russia'.
And besides, about 'Stalin Crimes' - Stalin was not even Russian to begin with. Stalin is his nickname, anyway.
So, all your posts are irrelevant.
Of course, during the Tzarism times, there were some atrocities made, to be sure.
However...
Nothing to be even COMPARED with those of USA (slavery, genocide) and UK (pretty much the same).
So, when you actually compare all the atrocities committed by large empires of the past, Russia's score would be among the LEAST of em, I'm quite sure.
In fact, for thousands of years it was playing on the defensive, constantly repelling attacks from western and eastern neighbors, that took great delight in burning, raping and pillaging every time Russia showed a tiny scrap of weakness.
Or you'll say that defending yourself is an atrocity?
Russia succeeded in repelling at least two greatest armies of all times - France and Germany, those that conquered all (or, at least, absolute most) of the Europe before.
You can count in Sweden too, btw - before they suffered a major defeat by our hands, they were pretty powerful... before is keyword .
Ha-ha-ha, I still remember some guy said that Russia did 'very little' to defeat Napoleon, and that was all UK work.
Thankfully, he was promptly smacked down by pretty much everyone who knew at least one scrap about history.
But they guy claimed that he is, like, history major and read a lot about subject... which means much brainwashing.
Quite disturbing, really. Next day we'll learn that Russia did 'very little' to defeat Germany, and USA did all figting, hah.

 

[Atrokkus]

And besides, about 'Stalin Crimes' - Stalin was not even Russian to begin with. Stalin is his nickname, anyway.

Hah, i hope you're not into the ultra-nationalism stuff? Stalin IS Russian, because he is was born there. USSR contained Russia, remember? And it was the leading and biggest state of the union. And he was the leader of Russia, and USSR.
Or you follow this "смерть чОрным" psychology?

So, Balor, you take into account tzar times, and even those before that, but still fail to recognize the existence of USSR in RUssia's history?
USSR is a stage of Russia's evolution. Just as the Imperial times, and the ancient times before that, and just as the modern Russia. USSR and Russia are one.
So please view the whole picture, and not select the prettiest pieces, blurring all the unpleasantries.
I mean, Gr. Britain also had several stages of her history, and some of her citizens might even try to forget some of the dark periods, but they are still part of history, you can't change that.

So, when we are talking about Russia we mean RUSSIA as the whole, not just Tzarist or modern Russia.

And those wars you mentioned -- you are right, nobody argues that (not me, at least).

But saying that Russia is such a pure child it's like "yeah right".
Don't get me wrong: I like my country, and it was once part of Russia and USSR, and I'm proud of that. And I have lots of friends in modern Russia, and I visit it occasionally. I'm just saying that every large country has its skeletons in the big world closet.

 

[Claw]

I think the big difference here is killing people in war versus just killing your own people because they think a little different than you do.

Yeah, killing other people because they think "a little" differently is great!

 

[Spazmo]

Stalin was Georgian, IIRC. But that's hardly relevant because "true" Russians were likely well represented in the other important people in the Communist Party and the time, the various burocrats and officials and the grunts who actually made it happen.

 

[Atrokkus]

Stalin was Georgian, IIRC

Yes, and there were many other non-russian russians. Like, in Communistic party there were many jews and others. It doesn't really matter. What matters is the mindset.