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Hard West - tactical turn based + wild west setting

GarfunkeL

Racism Expert
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Insert clever insult here
Actually, 2 AP doesn't allow as much flexibility as X-COM system by construction :
It is the eternal question of simulation vs abstraction. A 2 AP system assumes that each action is abstracted (ie shooting is not just pointing your gun at your opponent and pressing the trigger, it also covers looking around for target, trying not to be too easy to shoot back at the same time, and maybe shooting several times).
It is the same as in most PnP RPG actually, where an attack is not a single melee strike, but several moves over the course of a fixed timeframe that can result in your opponent being wounded or killed.
2 AP does not require a simplistic Pod Activation system. There are a lot of games using something similar to 2 AP actually : most RPG do after all (DnD is pretty close to a 2 AP system), and as you pointed out, many board games do too. Descent uses a 2 AP system, and is much more complex than Space Hulk, which uses a more flexible one (4 AP per marine and 6 per Alien).
2 AP being abstract allows for more things being abstracted into an action :
Charging and firing on the move are easier to represent with a 2 AP system (it can still be done, as in Space Hulk, but SH manages to do it by having both cost 1 AP).
You are right that XCOM (and X-COM for this matter) promote a defensive gameplay for different reasons : It is mostly an issue of mission design, as you have little incentive to do the mission quickly (except for terror mission in X-COM, and for meld in XCOM), the best move is to crawl and overwatch.
The Pod activations system makes matter worse, as moving too much would give a greater chance to activate two pods at once.
Both Space Hulk and Descent (and its cousins Doom, Star Wars : Imperial Assault) manage to avoid this issue by having one side getting reinforcements over time, and it works rather well, so it can work with both systems.
That's a good explanation but I'd rather have a more simulationist approach over an abstract one, as it gives me more options and makes the game worthwhile to play again and again and again. In all three SR campaigns for example, you don't really have incentive to play them more than twice - you can see almost all possible options inside the plot in two playthroughs and since the combat is merely lightly improved version of nu-XCOM, it's not really worth playing multiple times. As said, it's more boardgame or even a puzzle like. Once you figure out the puzzle, solving it is always the same thing and becomes a chore. Sure, there is minuscule variation and some fun can be gained from figuring out all the possible solving methods but that's it. Compare that to JA2 1.13 with it 100 AP division and proper randomization of combat encounters. With 100+ AP, you can actually have fourty different handguns and they are genuinely different from each other and yes, sometimes the difference between taking 11 AP versus 12 AP to shoot a gun does matter! Of course, this also requires that the game mechanics in general support it - if you can't crawl, crouch, duck-walk, walk, run and so on or there aren't different methods of shooting & stabbing, then the AP number is pointless.
 

Burning Bridges

Enviado de meu SM-G3502T usando Tapatalk
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I'd really love to use your feedback, because your expertise in the genre makes it invaluable in the nuts and bolts of the game mechanics. But it wouldn't hurt to see how the machine actually works first, and followup on the discussion once both parties are equally informed.

We will see. This might be different than you expect though.
 
Developer
Joined
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107
We will see. This might be different than you expect though.

Don't get me wrong - I expect the worst kinds of bashing and the most accurate and informed criticisms from you guys, no doubt there. I never thought it can meet your expectations (frankly I think nothing can, but that's a different subject).

I just want a fair trial, is all :) (instead of a disrespectful and arrogant 'decline' prematurely slapped on my title)
 

PeachPlumage

Cipher
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Don't get me wrong - I expect the worst kinds of bashing and the most accurate and informed criticisms from you guys, no doubt there. I never thought it can meet your expectations (frankly I think nothing can, but that's a different subject).

I just want a fair trial, is all :) (instead of a disrespectful and arrogant 'decline' prematurely slapped on my title)

:bro: :bravo:
 
Developer
Joined
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Messages
107
Coming up with excuses even before the Codex has took a dump on your game? :decline:
Following this logic, you're coming up with excuses even before taking a dump on the game. Also, wasn't aware Codex is all about taking dumps on games. But now that you said so, it all actually starts making sense :)

shooting at the beginning of your character turn ends the turn. At least in the demo.

Depends on the gun.
 
Last edited:

veevoir

Klytus, I'm bored
Patron
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech
Coming up with excuses even before the Codex has took a dump on your game? :decline:


Cyberwhale uses sarcasm.

Following this logic, you're coming up with excuses even before taking a dump on the game.

It's super effective!

Though no excuses are needed, are games here start from "It's shit" rating, may change in future. And hey, just by showing up here you assure a semi-maybe-fair trial.


Depends on the gun.
.

Good to know, also a nice tactical option to have. Is there some kind of info conveyed through interface which gun does and which not?
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,846
Tnx, awesome info here.

Is hard hardest difficulty? Is there ironman/hardcore mode in the game?
Can you retreat from missions or is that game over? If you lose all your guys in a mission is that game over or can you get new guys and try again or continue the story?
Is there any connection between these 8 scenarios or does each have characters and story that does not continue from the previous one?
Let me quote myself because I still want these other questions answered :D
 
Developer
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Messages
107
Let me quote myself because I still want these other questions answered :D

Whoops! Sorry. :)

Is hard hardest difficulty? Is there ironman/hardcore mode in the game?
You can additionally turn on injuries (additionally cripples characters who get severely wounded) and ironman (if a gameover occurs, you have to start over the current scenario - it literally deletes your save file <3).
To me, playing with all that at the same time is as pleasant as nailing your balls to the table. But, well, you know, I ain't judging.

Can you retreat from missions or is that game over? If you lose all your guys in a mission is that game over or can you get new guys and try again or continue the story?
Nope, sadly you have to retry and get it right.
We make double and triple sure beforehand that you're all set, and every mission can be beat without any prep, but that's a tradeoff we had to make to cut some corners and have room to do the really cool stuff.

Is there any connection between these 8 scenarios or does each have characters and story that does not continue from the previous one?
It's a huge story saga. Some characters carry over, many decisions carry over, some stats carry over.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,846
OK cool. So I guess Hard/Ironman will be for me :) (played all Xcom on Ironman but you can lose missions there and still continue and win). I like that the game is less RNG, and more like chess. I don't mind taking my time to find best possible course of action and that is easier if I can more easily predict the results.

But if some things carry over between scenarios and ironman only makes you start over from that scenario that sounds too easy.

I am pretty sure I will be enjoying this game a lot, I just hope you will not release a buggy game with technical problems.
 

Jimmious

Arcane
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May 18, 2015
Messages
5,132
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I will also buy and play Hard West. I really like what I've seen so far. Now if I could also buy some time to play all these new games somewhere, that would be nice... :negative:
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,846
I plan to play it instead of Fallout 4 unless F4 is so fun I will not be able to get away (which I doubt because it will probably need few weeks of patching first). I also need to finish SRR:HK and WL2DC.
D:OSEE is also waiting to be played some time in the future :)

But all of that is going to go on a pause until I finish HW :)
I was planning to play Xcom2 in this time frame anyways but its delay will probably be a blessing because HW seems so awesome.
 

Jimmious

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Messages
5,132
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I haven't even started SR:HK :/ Going through WL2 and DOS EE atm but they are both big games... Oh well I can't complain, too much Incline is still Incline :)
 

WhiskeyWolf

RPG Codex Polish Car Thief
Staff Member
Joined
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15,043
I just want a fair trial, is all :) (instead of a disrespectful and arrogant 'decline' prematurely slapped on my title)
Rejoice Mr. Developer, our resident Jewish Overlord has decided to give you the benefit of the doubt, alas, be sure not to disappointed him. Jews do not forget.
 

Invictus

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
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Mexico
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Just got this on GOG I dont dislike XCOM style combat at all and the setting and gameplay look just plain old fun. I happen to enjoy the deep TB games like SS and JA2 but sometimes I just want something which is fast and fun without many hassles but with some depth and this definetly looks like it fits the bill; looks simply charming
Lately I have been enjoying indies so much warts and all while the whole popamole world seems to be just counting the days for Fallout 4 which looks curiously like the artstyle of Dishonored more like a cartoonish look but I am missing the point
 

PeachPlumage

Cipher
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
522
Just got this on GOG I dont dislike XCOM style combat at all and the setting and gameplay look just plain old fun. I happen to enjoy the deep TB games like SS and JA2 but sometimes I just want something which is fast and fun without many hassles but with some depth and this definetly looks like it fits the bill; looks simply charming
Lately I have been enjoying indies so much warts and all while the whole popamole world seems to be just counting the days for Fallout 4 which looks curiously like the artstyle of Dishonored more like a cartoonish look but I am missing the point

:bro:
 
Developer
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
107
Just got this on GOG I dont dislike XCOM style combat at all and the setting and gameplay look just plain old fun. I happen to enjoy the deep TB games like SS and JA2 but sometimes I just want something which is fast and fun without many hassles but with some depth
Then you, sir, are definitely just my type of customer.
 
Developer
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
107
Kacper Szymczak - Was the backer access updated on the 2nd? Mine is still build pc_150402_1456 . Or maybe I'm a pleb backer, if that is reward for high tiers only
Working on it, will be updated soon with a newer build (although not exactly up to date, because that would interfere the works on the final build, which would be rather stupid).

eta: asap (maybe today)
 

veevoir

Klytus, I'm bored
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Riding the train, high on cocaine
Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech
Working on it, will be updated soon with a newer build (although not exactly up to date, because that would interfere the works on the final build, which would be rather stupid).

eta: asap (maybe today)

I live 20min away from Podbipięty st., that's how long you have!:outrage:
Thanks for the update
 

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