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Hearts of Iron 4 - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by GarfunkeL, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    Yeah,hoi games are pretty shallow. But that is understandable,they are about a few years of action,not about empire building and such. It is about people playing as armchair generals.
     
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  2. Theodora Erudite Patron

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    Obviously we must wait for Victoria 3, assume it's magically not shit, and then wait for the inevitable WWII mods. :P

    ... That said, has anyone tried the Victoria-like mod for HoI4? It looked pretty professional from what I saw on YouTube ages back.

    Right, End of a New Beginning, that was it. Don't see anything "pops" related...
     
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  3. Theodora Erudite Patron

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    Yugoslavia getting "a light rework" for Death or Dishonour owners, and some Romania changes. Today's dev diary:

    Show Spoiler



     
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  4. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
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    I just finished WW1 in my Russia campaign in The Great War Redux. Mixed feelings.

    On one hand I had nearly reached Berlin when some kind of script took over and France which had already advanced a good bit into the Rhineland and Hessen, signed the Compiegne armistice. This was in mid-1917.

    On the positive side, I avoided a Communist revolution. The emperor had to abdicate, but I deftly installed a regime headed by Gen. Kornilov in his place, and went with Constituent Assembly. I think this was a second-best to turning Russia into a constitutional monarchy and keeping the Romanovs in power.

    At the start of the war I had a little over 200 divisions, most of them were set against A-H and Germany. I've seen people win WW1 with half as many, but I've yet to develop a sense of measure about how much is enough, and with the nearly limitless manpower reserve, you can get carried away. 3.2 million manpower and that's under "partial mobilisation".

    I need to play more, but it feels like they've genuinely succeeded in preventing the simple tactic of overruning enemies with a human wave.

    I produced some 30 destroyers but I never even touched my navy during the war. The only planes I built were during the war itself - fighters which I was throwing mainly at Germany, on Interception missions. Later I also had about 60 CAS which I was using to support my infantry. Somewhat realistic numbers for WW1, but if I had taken the care to stockpile planes before the war, I could have gone crazy with them.

    I really liked the spy minigames and the whole system. It's a pity it hasn't been developed even more. For example it makes little sense to not be able to develop spy networks in allied countries. Paying for spy agency expansions with civillian factories is silly, it's high time Paradox put back money as a strategic resource, so it can be used for such puprposes, and not only.
     
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  5. Deadass Learned

    Deadass
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    now play TNO mod
     
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  6. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

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    sorry bro:

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2173766180
    Seriously though I would see what it's about but I'm more keen on the slight and more plausible deviations from real history.

    BTW I had one more comment on The Great War Redux which I forgot about. Just as I had calculated, it makes no sense to go the historical way with Russia, mobilize by using the Decision, and start the war in 1914. Postponing entry for as long as possible - The Ottoman Empire usually declares war on Russia in the first half of 1915 - allows you to prepare better and begin with a larger stockpile.
     
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  7. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

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    Here are some points I've collected. They are by no means everything, but I think it's some of the design decisions that the problems originate from:

    - Battle plans make for a prettier picture on the map, but they conceal an overall simplification of the combat mechanics. I know that the "party line" at Paradox is "battle plans reduce micro", but that is shit of course. It's not battle plans that reduce micro, it's the overall simplification of combat resolution mechanics that allows the battle plans system of hands-off high-level ordering of armies to be viable.It is remarkable how detailed you can still go with "armies" receiving multi-step plans, but the fact is that you will never make use of the flexibility which the game and UI give you. Most of the time you just draw an arrow on the map, and after the initial engagements, you begin microing by picking up single divisions by the ear and showing them the way. In other words - the same as what you used to do in Darkest Hour, only there you weren't doing it with single divisions but usually with 3-division "corps" commanded by its own Leutenant-General. This was more immersive, and paradoxically more convenient - you could fish out the core you need more easily than the single division. Not to mention that you rarely care which exact division you pick up when in a pinch to support some neighboring combat, whereas in DH you would have to lovingly micro your corps - or at least I used to do it. I had no option but to know my 3-division army corps because I had created each of them by hand. What I'm sure of is that if in DH you would try to throw around divisions the way your battle plans throw them around in HOI4, you would lose every time. So call that what you will, I will call it "dumbing down".

    - No more custom supply depots. No automatic supply depots either. Supply is no longer something you can stockpile at a certain "place" or tile on the map. Instead supply just flows from a point of origin (a country capital) down to divisions wherever they are on the map. The player doesn't care anymore about transport capacity, only about the infrastructure level of the "states" (the province groupings) on the path between the point of origin and the divisions.

    - The above simplification leads to the reality that surrounding the capital of the enemy cuts supplies to all its forces, anywhere in the world. Yes, this means that you can literally starve the whole Red Army by encircling Moscow and waiting a few months. Checkmate, Stalin!

    - No commanders of air wings.

    - You need "civillian factories" for conversion of previously converted "civillian" to "military factories" back to civillian?! What if you've converted all you civillian to military - the game won't stop you or warn you - then you have no industrial capacity to convert back with. This actually happened to me once.

    - Command Mana needs to die. It wasn't even in the game at the beginning. Makes zero sense to have some infantry divisions farm XP by training, and as a result of that experience, go on and "invent" an amphibious division template.

    - HOI 4 lacks money as a strategic resource. Partly this is the reason for trade being dumbed down to "selling" civillian factories for resource inflow. There are no national stockpiles of resources anymore. So you can't build up reserves before a war and then economically expend them during the war. Once you start a war and your supply lines happen to be cut, your production will suffer immediately.

    - Naval invasions performed using convoys to transport soldiers makes no sense, neither in game nor in historical context. Troop transport ships are apparently not necesseary in Paradox's version of WW2. I hoped this was something that was a stopgap solution and would be fixed in a navy-centered expansion, but apparently not, because it wasn't fixed in "Man the Guns".

    - Doctrines are no longer locked by year. You can research your full doctrine tree and give yourself bonuses, ostensibly resulting from your General Staff research, for technologies you do not yet have, and then after the fact, research the technologies that open up the troop types which benefit from these doctrines. This is pretty dumb.

    - The production system in HOI4, although so much more realistic and flexible than in older games, opens the door to game-balance exploits. Just one example is support companies. In DH they feel more like a luxury that you only reach for when you can afford it and when you know will use it. In HOI4 they become much cheaper to produce, because of the universal "support equipment" resource which can be spent on every kind of support company. You don't have "recon support equipment", "engineer support equipment", etc., it's just a generic "support equipment resource". So you stop looking at them as "support" and start including them in your base templates, because it's easy to be bathing in support equipment, which suits you for every type of support company. If this was DH you couldn't on a whim turn your engineering support brigades into artillery support brigades, once they are already in the production queue.
     
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  8. Stavrophore Liturgist

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    Can we finally get a GOOD mod about victorious reich[post war time like in TNO] made by actual nazis/fascists? Where US which is manipulated/ruled by jews and tries to do everything in their power to stop the germany[even cause terrorist attacks]. Where life is good in the reich. TNO is a nice mod that tackle the post war period, but it's yet another "nazis were super ebul" mod, particularly the Himmler is portrayed like some kind of monster[probably because mod authors believe the old adage that he orchestrated "holocaust"]. Also the slavery thing, nazis never enslaved workers[beside people in camps, but these get there because they were undesirable elements in society] in occupied territories, foreigners like poles who worked in german companies were paid and got housing.
    American gameplay also lacks alternative routes, you can't move blacks to liberia 2.0. What's the point of that "great democracy" when basically nothing can change no matter your choice of parties? And authoritarian democracy is just dictatorship with extra steps to fool the masses.
    The funniest thing is -mod authors actually believe that giving LGBT rights, will increase population xD. And who the hell cares about LGBT rights in a frigging wargame. It was a nonexistant issue and still is for a country.
    Then you have jewish uprising in the midst of one of reichkomissariat. I thought the mainstream historical belief was that hitler would exterminate all jews. Then why add jewish uprising on the reich territory? That is just inconsistent...
    Then there's Lehi a jewish "national socialist" party, which isn't true. National socialism was uniquely german creation. Lehi was more like "jewish supremacist zionism" party. Calling them national socialism is just plain stupid.
    [​IMG]

    Only interesting dynamic in the mod is the factionalism between different german leaders, albeit in reality all of them were very loyal to hitler and ideas of NS. TNO will always be a mod made by liberal democrats and it shows, because they favour that ideology.

    I will stay with Fuhrerreich, much more sane and real portrayal of NS germany.
     
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  9. Alexios Savant Patron

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    I mostly agree with your assessment but I don't think it's accurate to say it's very easy to be bathing in support equipment. You do need to be strategic about producing support equipment, depending on what country you're playing. It's quite easy to under-produce and end up halting deployment and reinforcement completely. I think this is overall a better approach than the older games, where you could simply do serial production of your support units and gradually add them to all your divisions.
     
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  10. Raghar Arcane

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    There are not many games that allows empire building. In fact, HoI4 is one of few games where you can conquer the world as ComChi, and build China's industry.
     
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  11. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
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    It's true that you can underproduce, though it hasn't happened to me so far. What I mean was, for one thing, that support equipment is not broken down by type of support company, and for another - that even if you end up in the red, it's very easy to shift factories from any other resource where your stockpile can handle a temporary halt of production. Of course it wouldn't be as effective, but it will save you for the moment. This was not possible in DH. In DH you could indeed set up a production line for, say, AT attachments, put it at x99 and just gradually upgrade infantry divisions as you decide. But this was only good if you had a gearing bonus which was dependent on your policy (sliders), and each such long-producing line would cost something like 4.3 IC if I remember right, which is less negligible than a few HOI4 factories at least in my current measure. I may be wrong.

    Something that also bugs me as too obviously gamey is the Military Factories - Equipment production - Army/Air experience dependency. Essentially you are buying division templates by building military factories. It's not difficult to calculate how many military factories you need producing Infantry Equipment per point of Army XP per day. And you really only need this capacity employed for the first 3-4 years of game time, after that you usually will be able to draw Army XP from combat, and those Military Factories become available again.
     
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  12. Raghar Arcane

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    There are also supply points that generates limited number of supply. Basically enough for an unit of SH tanks with artillery and AA cause "you gotta be kidding" moment for half year.

    C'mon. Air war is a mess. There are far harsher problems.

    Infantery divisions did training near ocean with ambhib ships, and as a result of theirs training they become heavy marine divisions.

    This has been done to prevent abuse. Now player in SP game can't do some absurd/nasty stuff, and need to actually play game. And in MP, it allows decent trade without crazy stuff with loans borrowning, and then basically falling back to trade in physical gold.

    THEY FUCKING SIMPLIFIED GAME IN THE MAN THE GUNS EXPANSION. The previous implementation at least had range in naval combat.

    They can easily add transport ships. They could ask me to design decent research and naval building system. They can create templates for MP, and as people in MP how they would like MP implementation to not slow the game.

    But frankly, they didn't. And considering how long it takes to finish game even with simplified rules, the only dedicated MP streaming community I seen was Bokuen and people who are playing with him. They typically play mods anyway, because they played too much base game.
    Actually nothing wrong with theoretical research happening to yet undeployed technology. Some countries had GREAT tank doctrines. Some of these even had tanks.

    In real life it's really helpful to have doctrine before even designing the weapon system, because at least designers know how would soldiers use that system. For example UK shovel MK2 is vastly different from UK shovel MK1 which was designed mainly for purpose of digging, while shovel MK2 was additionally efficient in slicing people heads off. Shovel MK4 can even be used for opening cans without spilling can content EVERYWHERE.
     
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  13. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

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    Here is how I would have designed military doctrines research and division templates cost. It would have been much more simulationist and without mana-like abstract resources.

    In your political tab you already have something called Military Staff. I would have the possible assignees to this military staff serve a simliar role to the Research Teams in HOI1/2/DH. The player wouldn't research military doctrines from the Research interface, but instead these theorists would occasionally come up with ideas from which the player would be able to pick from a list of options. Each option would be a set of modifiers, just as the current Doctrine technologies are sets of modifiers. I would have these options be generated dynamically however, and with some variance, depending on who is the theorist in the Military Staff working on this doctrine.

    Proposals for increasingly complex division templates would also come from the Military Staff, and these proposals would be based on the doctrine choices that the player has made thus far. It would be possible that the Military Staff proposes a division template using technologies you haven't researched yet - like an armored recon company or a field hospital. Then this would give you a slight bonus to researching that tech.

    Division template proposals could also be based on the types of divisions already taking part in ongoing conflicts, to simulate your Military Staff learning from the experience of other people's wars. The system could be made more complex by adding more factors.

    You could object that taking away the player's ability to modify templates manually isn't worth the "immersion enhancement" changes. But I'm not excluding the possibility for the player to modfiy templates manually. I actually quite like the ability for the player to customize divisions, it reminds me of the meddling that historically used to occur by political leaders into military organization matters. So I would retain the ability of the player to alter templates, but I would have each alteration cost a temporary penalty to organization and combat stats, until the military people get accustomed to working with this awkward formation that the fuhrer/comrade came up with.

    So there, no mana, and more realism at the same time.
     
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  14. FEDSMOKER hellbound and dumb as fuck Patron

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    not exactly related to Hearts of Iron 4 per se, but a friend of mine told me that a few people are still working on Iron Cross. here's some actual evidence:

    [​IMG]

    for those who don't know, Iron Cross was this retail Hearts of Iron 2 mod that was mostly known for its bugfuck insane tech tree. before you could research tanks, you had to research stuff like roads and the wheel. i am not making this up. try to imagine how excessive this is for a moment

    the real icing on the cake is that most of the new devs don't know how to actually get the game's files, since you can't buy the game from Gamersgate anymore. i'm actually baffled someone didn't put the games files on some FTP server or whatever
     
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  15. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
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    "Lenin left us a great legacy, but we, his successors, fucked it up."
    - Stalin, June '41

    Ok, so my divisions are much better than the German ones, both infantry and armored, I have the advantage of numbers as well, yet I'm only slowly advancing in the direction of Warsaw, while around Eastern Prussia the Germans have broken through my lines and are quickly expanding the breakthrough towards Daugavpils (shit I wrote this right from the first time, I've turned into a true geek). In Romania, I pushed through the Prut river, but they are still defending well. The war started on the 11th June '41, and we've been going on for two weeks, now it's the 27th.

    What could I have done wrong, should I provide more info?
     
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  16. thesheeep Arcane Patron

    thesheeep
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    Without more info, that's pretty impossible to tell, could be anything from getting basic templates wrong to forgetting to use air (or using it wrong).
    Two weeks isn't much, though - the general HoI strategy is to let them throw themselves against your fortifications until they start running low on people & supplies and only then push.
    Except if you are so dominating that you can simply push no matter what - but that is highly unlikely against Germany.

    One thing I did find, though (but maybe that's just Kaiserreich?) is that tanks are overrated. Sure, they can give you an advantage early on and some nations are so strapped for manpower they still need em, but starting from a certain point, everyone will get that high penetration tech bonus, making every infantry division into tank-busters and you'll see that "armor penetrated" sign everywhere.
    At that point, all you get are fast glasscannons with a low manpower cost.
     
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  17. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

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    Maybe I roleplayed too much - I built the soviet armies on the western border approximately how they were IRL - each army with one mech corps (two tank divisions and one motorized, which I substituted for an infantry because I didn't have the mana to develop good motorized divisions), some with two mech corps, besides the baseline two-three rifle corps which are three rifle divisions each in most cases. I also threw myself at them as soon as I had the casus belli ready. I'll post screenshots of the division templates later but mine are much better than theirs, filled up with support companies, and my tank divisions contain one heavy tank brigade each. I know tanks are too nerfed and it's even recommended to build only one tank category, but I thought if I can't LARP Stalin why am I even playing this :D

    EDIT: when I'm talking about corps, I'm not that crazy to make each corps into a separate in-game "army", I just added the according number of divisions into each respective army which I had organized as an in-game "army". Back in DH I could recreate the corps too, but apparently that's too much for the zoomer playerbase.
     
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  18. thesheeep Arcane Patron

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    I think you mostly analyzed your own "mistakes" here.
    If you gonna LARP Stalin, then you'll have to larp getting rekt as well until Germany runs out of steam (and hope that the Allies don't fuck it up, which they admittedly tend to do due to naval invasion incompetence). :lol:

    Though the worst mistake seems to be the "throwing yourself at them" right from the start.
    Superior tech helps, but it won't make you dominate if it isn't multiple years ahead (which is unlikely in 41).

    I mostly play small-to-medium-sized nations (never played Germany, for example), but that is something I'd never, ever do. Even if you end up winning, it will be a phyrric victory - and since manpower works somewhat decently in HoI4, you will regret throwing men away in the long run (admittedly, some nations might be an exception here).

    Don't know too much about the math behind armor & damage so I can't really tell if one heavy tank in your tank divisions is a good idea or not.

    One thing you CAN do, if that is possible, is to create (and hold) a staging area in western Europe. That way, the AI's incompetence in doing that themselves won't matter as they will happily use your landing area as a staging point for their own invasion.
    It's what I did playing Canada - you can't win the war as Canada, but you can allow the Allies to not fuck up that way.
     
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  19. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

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    While we're on the subject of larping, I forgot to mention a tiny detail - Germany called Japan and I'm currenlty being assfucked in Vladivostok. I won't even react surprised they broke the the non-aggression pact they had offered me a month prior.
     
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  20. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

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    So, it's 84 infantry (infantry + 7 mountain), 45 tank divisions on whole west Axis front. The templates are such:

    Basic infantry was gradually upgraded to:
    upload_2020-10-11_11-16-13.png

    I also made my own infantry template, probably a waste of points, considering how similar it is for now:
    upload_2020-10-11_11-16-43.png

    Tank division:
    upload_2020-10-11_11-16-58.png

    The Germans' templates look pretty weak in comparison:
    upload_2020-10-11_11-17-20.png

    upload_2020-10-11_11-17-28.png

    I half-expected this to be so, actually. Based on my experience with The Great War Redux, I saw that the attacking side is always at a disadvantage because of entrenchment bonuses and river crossings, but I thought this effect was stronger in the mod than it would be in the vanilla game, because they had tried to simulate WW1 warfare, and because divisions would be much more upgraded in the vanilla game.

    It feels like bonuses from division support companies and from doctrines aren't enough to make a tangible difference, since the Germans are doing quite well with pretty sloppy divisions.
     
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  21. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

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    The fact that there exist guides which describe and advise for "a no-aviation build" of USSR or of any country, and that from empirical experience it emerges that the best strategy is to ignore medium and heavy tanks, says enough about the gross balance issues the game has. IMO first they have to fix the balance, then ensure that the AI is recognizing the balance changes and is taking advantage of the wider variety of viable division templates. At the moment DH is a much truer WW2 simulation than HOI4, even with HOI4's production system. HOI4 has mostly the flashy graphics going for it and little else. Important systems are gutted.

    I think I'll post this as a steam review.
     
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  22. Malakal Arcane

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    Tanks and assault guns are very very strong and so is airforce but you can win without those if you don't have the industry for them. In MP both are vital to victory to the point where pre war Germany will have 80% of its factories on fighters.

    If you want to nit pick blame the AI, you can beat it with most useless strats...
     
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  23. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    Yea, tanks have value, even light tanks, because of their high Breakthrough stat which makes them notably better on the offensive. Light tanks combined with motorized is a basic way for encirclements.

    When you have Armor stat superiority you basically have a crushing victory on your hands, hence why keeping up with Piercing is important. And why Heavy Tanks are so costly (and Medium tanks too relative to Lights, since Lights have fuck-all Armor).

    The Great War and The Great War Redux simulate WW1 warfare mostly through drastically lower Breakthrough than Defense, which leaves the attacker at a disadvantage. So it will probably take a while before you can either motorize your infantry and/or start fielding tanks in large numbers to start mounting an offensive, and you'll probably need to throw some dudes to their deaths to gain an Aggressive Assaulter field marshal and as many leaders with Adaptive as possible (since due to the disparity between Defense and Breakthrough, terrain penalties are also more notable, especially compared to say BICE where by the end of the game you will have commando super-heavy tank divisions crossing mountains like a bawss). Usually the problem with those is that the German AI is too aggressive for its position and will leave itself open to attacks by exhausting its division organisation on useless attacks without having divisions that would just defend (which the Entente will have sort of by accident because Britain and France do not simultaneously throw in all of their front to a useless attack so someone's always the backup defender).

    It works relatively well, usually the problem is really just that there is no stalemate peace option, and in Redux in particular I felt that compared to the old mod there was never a problem with manpower running out.

    Isn't the MP meta more in Strategic Bombers and Heavy Fighters, or did they fix Flying Doom Fortresses destroying fighters by the boatload per lost Flying Doom Fortress?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  24. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
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    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker

    Why is then common that in Multiplayer there are house rules on strategic bombers? Or on destroying factories? I also read about an exploit where the USSR intentionally allows uprisings on its territory in order to cause damage to its infrastructure as it retreats from those states (although I admit it sounds very Russian).
     
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  25. Stavrophore Liturgist

    Stavrophore
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    Havent played HOI4 since long time, apparently they've disabled the code that enabled nuke mods to decrease state population. The game is really SJW. No civilian casualties, no terror bombing. Truly a total war simulator. And that's their politics since first HOI. Unless other company tries to tackle the market, we won't have any meaningful civilian mechanics in HOI series.
     
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