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Game News HELL FREEZES OVER! ToEE patch #2 released!

zhuge

Novice
Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
30
Hate to butt in like this but I really need some help over at the Co8 forums.
I've released Co8 mod pack v3.0.1 but I need to get it packaged and also establish a fixed place to download it.
Ausir and Exitium, could you guys come over and have a quick look at what else needs to be done...
 

Tris McCall

Novice
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
77
Location
jersey city, new jersey
LlamaGod said:
An editor would always been sexy too, just imagine all you could do with an editor and ToEE's solid ruleset implementation, yess,yess.

I don't think I've ever played a game that screamed out so audibly for an editor. Go on, Troika, turn over the excellent tactical combat to a gaming public that could potentially write some content worthy of it. Honestly, I enjoy the ToEE tactics so much -- and I ended up liking my party so much -- that I'd probably download any fanmade module, no matter how crappy it looked.
 

Spazmo

Erudite
Joined
Nov 9, 2002
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Location
Monkey Island
There was no time to prepare a presentable editor given ToEE's mere 20ish months in development. Any time spent on editors would have meant even less stuff in the game.
 

Elwro

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
11,751
Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
I think that the main problem is that the game isn't tile based. The editor would be, I think, almost useless because next to no one could do anything with it.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
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Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,544
I think they should've just made a giant tile-based game engine and released editor's for it. Like NWN, only with better everything and acknowledged their lack of ability to make any decent content.

By the way, all of the traders in Nulb have stopped buying ph4t lewt from me. All their inventories are full. Well actually, they're not *really* full. They've still got a whole bunch of empty squares left, but I keep getting the "Item Transfer Error - No room for that!" popping up. Grrrr....

In other news, playing through as 5 Paladin's without any magic users is nigh on impossible once you hit the nodes. God-damned. I'm relying solely on one guy (who has the sword Fragarach) to do ANY damage, while the rest miss, or hit for... wait for it... 2 HP damage (and even that was a critical hit).

I hate how there's no section on "How to defeat the God-Damned Monsters" in the manual or in the in-game help. :(

*goes back to looking for a tutorial*
 

Anonymous

Guest
Pro-Tip: Try not to make a group of totally exactly the same character, you will definately get fucked because you're not filling all the options up, just the same over over and over.

I didnt really say I wanted an editor because ToEE is low on stuff, but the combat and ruleset implementation is great, so it'd be nice to do more D&D adventures with it (like mebbe Return to ToEE).
 

DarkUnderlord

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Messages
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LlamaGod said:
Pro-Tip: Try not to make a group of totally exactly the same character, you will definately get fucked because you're not filling all the options up, just the same over over and over.
Yeah, I get that now. I guess I kind of expected a Fallout type game, where you could play it *your* way and not the "In order to proceed beyond this point you require 2 maxed-out Magic-Users, 2 maxed-out Fighters and a Thief character. Please press the 'restart game with standard party selection' button on your keyboard now. Also note that in order to succeed, you will need to focus purely on specific combat skills that will maximize your munchkin power gaming session".

1) I was never a big fan of the multi-skilled party thing. It feels too much like cheating (not the word I'm looking for, but it'll do). It's just too easy to have "one of each". I thought 5 Paladins would give me my evil stuff and maybe make it harder to win against some monsters, but not impossible. I mean, it really is impossible. I've reached a point where my characters are completely useless and this isn't one of those "D'oh! I was dumb enough to pick 3 intelligence yet push my speech skill up to 200 thinking that was what matters" moment. It's that I simply cannot play as 5 pure-combat fighters.

Which I think is funny, for a dungeon crawl.

2) The game really is a matter of "If you don't know the ins-and-outs of the D&D system, forget it". There are probably one or two feats I could've picked or something I could've done in levelling up that would've maxed out my character's ability to hit more-so than the 5 men I have now. Unfortunately, finding out that you NEED to max-out combat skills (IE: Pick nothing else except those that boost your ability to hit - otherwise you'll die) in order to finish it, is... well, dumb as far as I'm concerned.

3) Even simple things like how to defeat a Black Pudding are expected knowledge. I didn't know that to defeat a Black Pudding meant I had to use a blunt weapon. Making it multiply with swords was nice for a while, but when there's nothing - either in the game from an NPC or in the manual - that tells you how to do so, it's annoying. Especially when (prior to patch 1) combat was a "win or die" situation. If you didn't have what you needed on you RIGHT NOW in order to kill your opponebnt, there is no escaping and returning later. That's it, you're dead. Tough luck, YOU LOSE. Thank God they fixed that with the patch though...

ToEE's really been a mixed bag for me. At times I'm scathing, other times I'm really enjoying it (as I take on a room full of BugBears or Ruffians, mostly). Overall though, scathing is winning out.

[END OF GRIPE]

*goes back to looking for yet more walkthroughs for ToEE + the D&D Monster Manual*
 

Sol Invictus

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Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
zhuge said:
Hate to butt in like this but I really need some help over at the Co8 forums.
I've released Co8 mod pack v3.0.1 but I need to get it packaged and also establish a fixed place to download it.
Ausir and Exitium, could you guys come over and have a quick look at what else needs to be done...

Mail it to me and I'll put it up on the site. By the way, please read the FDT mailing list. :)
 

Elwro

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
11,751
Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
DarkUnderlord said:
By the way, all of the traders in Nulb have stopped buying ph4t lewt from me.
Well, you should be happy they wanted to buy anything in the first place. The smith in Nulb attacked me on sight despite me having done nothing wrong to him. I tried a few times, from different savegames - always the same. And I heard he had quite a good shop; for some strange reasons the game insists on preventing me from using it.
 

Voss

Erudite
Joined
Jun 25, 2003
Messages
1,770
A note: this is long.

Elwro- if you've gained the butcher of hommlet title, he'll attack. And if you've messed with his family (his parents in the SW-most farm) or with Otis, his brother.

DarkUnderlord-
I'm really rather curious as to the details of your party. By class features, paladins have good hps, good saves (assuming a charisma bonus), and the best base attack bones (1:1 progression), no restrictions on weapons/armor, and moderate healing abilities

Aside from the 'obscure knowledge' monsters like the puddings, and situations where you don't have holy/silver/cold weapons to breach damage reduction, you should be fairly well set for combat (assuming the strength scores aren't low- less than 14 is usually a problem).

Because, frankly, Llamagod is wrong. All tank parties can do rather well. The game can be difficult with all non fighter types, but with all tanks, most battles should be fairly straightforward. Rogues aren't necessary at all, paladins give you some of the buff/healing that clerics or bards do (and better combat abilities). Paladins are a little less effective than barbarians or fighters, but make up for it in the after action healing, usually better than rangers in combat, are less specialized than druids or monks (both can be spectacular, but if you're not really on the ball with them, then tend to blow) and while you don't have the range of a wiz/sorcerer, a warrior type with a reach weapon and cleave/great cleave can rip through minions as easily as a fireball.
You're only major problem will be missing out on item creation. Which is big for getting past DR.

Real problems with character building in TOEE. (in general, not necessarily for all paladin parties.)

1) bows/missile weapons in general. These kinda blow. the lack of mighty bows in particular can cause real problems, low damage rolls can effectively make shooting meaningless.... up until the point you have a character that can start enchanting things
with frost/shock/flaming/holy (and I mean stacking them all), which requires a cleric with the good domain, and a wizard (though a druid or sorcerer can do in a pinch) Three feats are pretty much required too, point blank shot, precise shot and rapid shot (for bows anyway). Without precise shot, assume you'll be hitting only on 20s.

2) good magical weapons (and in particular, good magical weapons that your people can focus in) If you don't have item creation, you're stuck with the few good weapons that you find. And there aren't many, and some are hidden/ near inaccesible.

3) feats. You can only take so many, and some, frankly, aren't good. This is a D&D issue rather than one specific to TOEE. Yeah some sound cool. But how many times are you going to use blindfighting? Improved trip is great, until 75% of your foes are large, high strength creatures. bonus to skills can be quite useful... but most of the game is combat. Feat chains that lead to things like whirlwind sound all cool and uber... but how many times will you really use it? great cleave is much easier to get, and can be just as devastaing. Power attack, if nothing else, you'll need it to get cleave. And it can also be useful to put the smack down on things- particularly with two handed weapons- the kings of 3.5 edition weaponry. You might even be able to breach DR the hard way.
Wizards/clerics- item creation feats. These cut the difficulty of the end game in half (if you make the weapons right- elemental effects and holy). Don't worry about much except for arms/armor and wondrous items (for the stat boosters). Maybe wands or potions for the cleric/druid/bard. And remember wizards trump sorcerers here. 3 bonus feats, and more than a paltry handful of spells known. And scrolls can easily make up for the loss of a few castings/day particularly if you load up on the buffs/miscellaneous spells (knock, for the few locked things that are really high DC)
But, as a side note. Craft arms and armor isn't really useful until 9th/10th level and you can put frost/shock/holy on things.. don't waste the XP too early on.

4) ah, a big one. party size. 4 is best. After that, XP gets spread around too much, and leveling becomes an issue. For example, a full party (5 pcs, 3 npcs) will probably be only 3rd level when they reach the grand melee in the guard tower. (I was, my first time through the game). A four person party will be about 5th or 6th. This is D&D.
Level > numbers
By a whole hell of a lot. More feats, more hps, higher level & more spells, better chances to hit. And you the items you've found/bought/made will be focused, and not spread thin... which is important, because the second most important thing in D&D after your level is your gear. then stats (& hp), then class, then feats, then skills. (At least, assuming a combat heavy environment like TOEE)
 

taks

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
753
interesting... i was 8th level by the time i got to the 2nd level of the temple, however, i never took any NPCs (the looting thing...) wait, i took scropp once, then tried to drop him. he died.

taks
 

DrattedTin

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
426
Yeah, you can REALLY level up fast in 3rd edition by just spamming random encounters.

3rd ed's XP table is very oriented towards tabletop, as opposed to 2nd ed's "you need to kill 10,000 kobolds for your next level".
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
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Messages
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Forum. Dying... Going sooo slow. Must.. reply...

Voss said:
I'm really rather curious as to the details of your party.
I'll stick up another save game of my party. I think I am reasonably well set for combat, it's just the super-tough monsters (Galeb Dhruain Whatevers) that I really, really, really suck at. Rather frustrating to reach a point where you suddenly hit a wall of undeafeatable (5 of them) monsters all of a sudden. I managed to kill them eventually but again, ONLY because I had the Super Sword Fragarach. The rest were used as cannon fodder to spread the damage while the Fallen Paladin version of me attacked.

Voss said:
By class features, paladins have good hps
Good hps? According to the manual "HPs are 1d12". Yup, that's all it says on HPs. Thank God I at least know what a 1d12 is... Simple, minor thing to a D&D player. Not such a simple thing to a non-D&D player (and what a 1d12 is isn't mentioned in the abbreviations at the back). I'll also throw in here that that system sucks (whoever hard of random hps based purely on a dice throw?) but hey, now I'm just complaining for the hell of it.

Computer game speak: Damage dealt = 2 to 12.
D&D speak: Damage dealt = 2d6.

Voss said:
and situations where you don't have holy/silver/cold weapons to breach damage reduction
That may be my problem.

Voss said:
2) good magical weapons (and in particular, good magical weapons that your people can focus in) If you don't have item creation, you're stuck with the few good weapons that you find. And there aren't many, and some are hidden/ near inaccesible.
Fragarach. Without it, I would be dead, plain and simple. My party would've given up eons ago. The number of times it's been that sword that was the only reason I could kill anything are getting to numerous to count.

Voss said:
4) ah, a big one. party size. 4 is best. After that, XP gets spread around too much, and leveling becomes an issue. For example, a full party (5 pcs, 3 npcs) will probably be only 3rd level when they reach the grand melee in the guard tower. (I was, my first time through the game). A four person party will be about 5th or 6th. This is D&D.
I was level 3 when I hit the Moathouse, Level 4 at the temple and hit level 10 just a while ago after taking out Hedrack and Co. There was one point where I slept in order to get random encounters and level up though... Of course, when sleeping only improves your HP when you get a full 8 hours and you're constantly interrupted (and therefore rearely get a full 8), there's only so much "resting" (read: Random encounters) you can do before you have to head for an inn to heal up.
 

Elwro

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Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
DarkUnderlord said:
Computer game speak: Damage dealt = 2 to 12.
D&D speak: Damage dealt = 2d6.
.
You know, 2d6 is really different than a hypothetical 1d11+1 in terms of probability.
 

Voss

Erudite
Joined
Jun 25, 2003
Messages
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Ah, the galeb duhr are a special case.
I don't have the book they're in (either Fiend Folio or Monster Manual II) but from what I've understood from people who do have it, their DR is screwed up. Partly because the books they are in use 3.0 D&D DR , which is a little different. But instead of DR 15, breached by nothing, they should be either DR 5/- (no breaching) or DR 10/magic. At least by the logic that was applied to most of the damage reduction in the change from 3.0 to 3.5.

Hps can be an issue (paladins are actually d10, though). There should, I think, be options you can set to get minimum numbers of your hp. A difficulty slider of some sort. Along the lines of straight random/ at least half your hit die/ 3/4 of the hit die / maximum hp. It can really suck when you end up with a wizard (d4 hit die) with more hp than your front line guys.
 

Anonymous

Guest
I thought Paladins only got 1d10?

Barbarians - 1d12
Warriors and Paladins - 1d10
Clerics and Druids - 1d8 (I think)
Rouges (and I think) Bards - 1d6
Socerers and Wizards - 1d4
 

Dark Elf

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Ranger's got 1d8 in 3.5.

This is how it should be:

Barbarian - 1d12
Fighter and Paladin - 1d10
Cleric, Ranger, Monk and Druid - 1d8
Rouge and Bard - 1d6
Socerer and Wizard - 1d4

I fucking love it being a rules lawyer. :twisted:
 

Anonymous

Guest
I just couldnt remember them all, heh. It's been awhile since i've played D&D.
 

taks

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
753
Elwro said:
You know, 2d6 is really different than a hypothetical 1d11+1 in terms of probability.

much.

the random die roll thing for HPs, btw, is designed to give all characters of the same type "around" the same stats after several levels. above about 12th level, the distribution of HPs for a group of similar fighters will be normal (gaussian) about some mean (66 HPs at 12th level, +CON bonus) which is supposed to be indicitive of some "real-world" spread of fighters. remember, we're suspending disbelief of this whole fantasy world thing...

the bummer about such a system is that at low levels, the luck of the draw can be devastating should you get the low roll. i.e. at 3rd level, you've unluckily rolled three 1s in a row and decided to boost STR over CON (12 in CON) so your dude only has 6 HPs (well, i suppose we get max HPs at first level so it works out to 15 HPs). either way, not good for a front-line meat shield...

taks
 

taks

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
753
oh, wait a minute, 3/3.5E doesn't do that "+3 HPs after 9th level" thing, does it? never paid attention...

taks
 

Anonymous

Guest
I myself wanted a 'always get full HP roles' since i'm just a muchkin like that, used to do it in my old D&D games. Hizzouze ruelz yo
 

Voss

Erudite
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Jun 25, 2003
Messages
1,770
taks said:
oh, wait a minute, 3/3.5E doesn't do that "+3 HPs after 9th level" thing, does it? never paid attention...

taks

No, it doesn't. That wandered off.
 

taks

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
753
ah, good... never liked that in 2E. if you started out nerfed, you stayed nerfed. of course, it would help if i actually read my DMG every once in a while :)

taks
 

Dark Elf

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Messages
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Location
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There are many things with 3.5 that appears to be a lot better than 2nd ed. I've played 3.5 for a few tabletop sessions and I've found it to be a pretty damn good system. Runs pretty neat. This, I suppose, wasn't always the case with 2nd ed.
 

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