High Fantasy: Why always so generic?

[JarlFrank]

This is a rant of some sort. About my disappointment of game developers' inability to catch the true spirit and athmosphere of high fantasy in their games. When you think about a high fantasy PC RPG you think about generic, right? Just the same as most other RPGs. Oblivion and NWN 2 would be good examples of what first comes to your mind, where story and locations just seem boring and uninspired, not like a true piece of art but much rather like a lack of creativity of the artists, or just laziness.

But that's not what high fantasy is about. Totally not. Back when I played the old Wizardries and Might and Magics, those did amaze and immerse me. Those had nice stories and worlds. Why? Is it just nostalgia? Or is there more to it? I think there's a bit more to it. The stories were extremely kitschy and cliché, like, "Go to that evil tower of blackest doom to find the awesome amulet of utmost power, and then use it to kill the dark wizard of Uzuu'kruul!"
But that was actually a part of what held the charme of those games. It was cliché, but it felt epic. It was generic, but it felt cool.

So, why doesn't Oblivion's "You have to stop a demon invasion!" hold as much awesomeness in it as those old stories did? Well, maybe because of the old-school feel of them, or because of the sense of adventure. "Enter the Dark Towers of Urkuul!" or something like that just sounds way more interesting than "Close the Oblivion Gates!". And maybe that's it. Most modern RPGs like Oblivion try too much to be cool and epic, while the older RPGs with their mostly more personal and even more clichéd stories just managed to be cool and epic with less effort. They didn't try to be "cool" or appeal to the masses, they were just terribly nerdy, and that was good. You had your small party of adventurers and set out on an epic goal to fight an evil wizard and retrieve an ancient artifact. It's actually a lot easier to identify with than a random hero who was in prison for one reason or another and suddenly gets elected by the emperor himself to save the world. Meh, it just tries to hard.

Also, the artstyle. I guess there have been only very few games which did that right, most of those being 2D games. The newer RPGs never managed to really catch the high fantasy athmosphere. Well, the visuals of many older ones didn't, either. Just look at some fantasy art. Larry Elmore, Luis Royo, Clyde Caldwell. Notice something? It looks cool. It looks epic. It looks the way like you'd imagine the adventures in your P&P campaigns. It's got noble knights in shining armor, sexy warrior-chicks with incredibly ridiculously revealing armor and clothing, huge dragons flying above the skies, great cities with huge walls. It looks awesome. It looks epic. Especially those huge cities of epic proportions. It all has a certain style to it, a certain feel.

Also, just compare Minas Tirith from the LotR movies to Oblivion's Imperal City. Heck, Minas Tirith is thrice as epic!

Now, some pictures to elaborate:

Look at the dragon. It's big and red, and got nice horns. Look at the girl. Her armor looks great, a mix of platemail parts and a few strips of chainmail. And then that tower in the background that stretches above the hills. And that little house, looking so like peasant-romanticism. It's so fucking clichéd, but it's got a certain kind of charme to it.

I guess all those go without words. They all look kitschy as hell, but they have a great charme to them.

From the kitschiest high fantasy paintings of Elmore and Caldwell to the kind of fetish-approach of Royo, all that just has a certain awesomeness to it, a certain athmosphere that I miss in most RPGs. Combine that with one of the classical D&D adventures you used to play in the 80's, and then you got *real* high-fantasy, not some generic stuff that has no heart or soul behind it.

Now I'm going to get off at some more fantasy paintings, while I'm waiting for the next epic RPG where I have to gather my small party of adventuring elven chicks in chainmail bikinis and a sturdy male dwarven warrior with a huge beard to go out and stop the hideously evil wizard Knat'tz'baxx from finding the ancient artifact called Heart of Stone and using it to enslave the world with necromancy, while at the same time rescuing the king's beautiful daughter which that evil wizard has kidnapped and is fondling in his free time. Yes, that would be an RPG that will finally be able to catch the spirit of high fantasy again. Clichéd as hell, but still cool. A game made by people who spent their youth playing pen and paper RPGs with their friends in horribly written fantasy settings. A game that can only be made by people who love RPGs, and don't just want to reach a commercial success. Yes, that would be HEAVAN.


Sorry for my spontaneous, stupid and mostly incoherent rant, but I guess you get what I'm getting at. High fantasy nowadays just has become the epitome of genericness because it's lost its creativity that it used to have back then. At least when it comes to RPGs.

 

[sheek]

Play some of the PnP modules for NWN1 if you want that kind of old-school hack-n-slash dungeoneering. Or the Fighting Fantasy conversions. The Gold Box games had cool art but of course couldn't replicate it with the 2-bit graphics of the day.

Personally I don't think it's the lack of those is the biggest problem with the industry.

Dragon Age might also appeal to you if it ever get released.

 

[Saxon1974]

Good post JarlFrank even though it is a bit of a rant

I agree with you, it's hard to put to words what is missing from the newer generation of RPG's, I can't figure it out either but you are definitely right, there is something missing from them. They don't make me want to emmerse myself into the world like the games of old. Maybe its the 3D graphics, I think to this point 2D games till do a much better job in creating a fantasy world that feels right to me.

You may have a point that they are trying to hard now. If they created a game and said " You must go to the wizards tower and retrieve the sword of power" everyone would flame them at how unoriginal they are and how they suck. I don't really care if something is original as long as I like the story, not everything has to be totally new and different.

By the way Larry Elmore is my favorite fantasy artist, he does the best job of making the fantasy world look the way I imagine it. It's not quite lifelike, it looks like fantasy in a good way. I really like the cliche peasant home in that picture, it's the way I imagine things to look in a fanstasy world.

How cool would it be if they created a 2D rpg with Larry Elmore as the lead artist? I wonder if he has ever been offered?

The only thing I dont like about Elmore's drawings is how little clothing the women wear. Don't get me wrong, Im not gay and love to look at women, but it just seems unlikely they would be wearing that little clothing in the dead of winter or going into battle. But then again its fantasy so I think im over thinking it.

I can play ultima III with it's dated graphics and I still get more of a feeling of immersion than I do with Oblivion type games. Maybe its nostalgia I dont know...It's funny current games use the word "Immersion" as one of their biggest selling point, but they don't immerse me very much at all. A big part of it is probably that they try and make a game for everyone and that makes it too generic. It didn't used to be that way, developers used to try and make games that they wanted to play....

 

[nik2008ofs]

It didn't used to be that way, developers used to try and make games that they wanted to play....

[off topic]

In one of the early interviews concerning Fallout 3, a Bethesda representative said "we make FO3 in a game that WE would want to play and enjoy " (not exact quote, but that was the spirit) and was of course bashed by the fan base...

[/offtopic]

 

[WalterKinde]

Generic sells is the most obvious thing i think.
Its been said before here and elesewhere, big publishers WANT to make a profit and theres less of a chance of that if they deviate from the standard profit making map and so that means no taking risks or chances that could potentially hurt said profits.
When a publisher allows a game developer to take those chances and it fails then they say "They should have stuck to the map", when it works a new area on the map is colored in and then EVERY publisher starts following that until it becomes part of the generic make up.
Which is why high fantasy games must always look like it stepped out of a reject scene of Lord Of The Rings, with your noble eleves, gruff but sensitive dwarves, funny/honorable halflings, mysterious ranger with past, and the wise wizard balanced against the super evil wizard and evil deity with thousands of orcs/goblins, a dragon or two and maybe some zombies from a swamp.
All in a land with Castles made out of white stone a forest some mountains, mines/dungeons and a volcanic/dark area for the forces of evil.
That description probably matches most of the PC rpgs out there right now and some from years ago.
Its been shown these things sell to the general public so why change?

 

[Raapys]

Well, although graphics have technically evolved alot the last years, I think the art direction, and the use of some special effects like Bloom/HDR, has pretty much gone to hell. In addition, music is now seemingly an afterthought in games.

Some of the most immersive games I know of, the adventure games of LucasArts, were simply awesome when it came to atmosphere. Monkey Island and Loom being prime examples. Warm, inviting graphics and *perfect* music.

Planescape Torment is another game that does this very well. The graphics might not be as high-res and detailed as, for instance, Bg2's, but on the whole it creates a better atmosphere when mixed with the excellent music, thus making this game less generic, I'd say, than the Baldur's Gate, the Icewind Dale or the Neverwinter Nights series.

Personally I think this is far more important than how the story and quests are worded.

 

[MetalCraze]

all is important altogether.
atmosphere is not only graphics. atmosphere is everything.
from art design to music.
but as long as bitches will use Jeremy Soule - atmosphere will be ruined.

because Soule sucks balls.


(jeremy soule is the one that wrote music for almost every bioware game, as well as for morrowind and oblivion)

 

[mjorkerina]

I am so happy to see someone else than me spitting on Jeremy Soule. FFS this dude is the Hans Zimmer of video games, only worse. When I watch a movie with Zimmer soundtracks, I intuitively know it, no need to tell me, I want to throw up immediately in disgust of the generic boring sound produced by the retard.

Arcanum, Torment and BG2 had particularly good music.

(jeremy soule is the one that wrote music for almost every bioware game, as well as for morrowind and oblivion)

The trend started with NWN.

 

[MetalCraze]

Arcanum's music was... something
while I didn't like it much - something didn't let me to turn it off. don't know why but it seemed somehow a very important part of Arcanum's atmosphere. soundtrack made of only 6 violins was a pretty original move.

Torment's soundtrack was good and dark - added very much to the desperate atmosphere of the game.

Soule's music is too high and generic. it lacks soul. it's a music you can hear in every generic fantasy game/movie. boring.

 

[JarlFrank]

Arcanum's music was... something
while I didn't like it much - something didn't let me to turn it off. don't know why but it seemed somehow a very important part of Arcanum's atmosphere. soundtrack made of only 6 violins was a pretty original move.

Four. It were four violins.

 

[Jasede]

Jeremy Soule made incredibly good music. I don't care if he sucks now. If you can seriously listen to the Total Annihilation OST or the Morrowind intro theme and tell me that that is terrible (videogame) music you're most likely lying.

Man, the Total Annihilation soundtrack... easily on par with Arcanum's, and much better than anything this Morgan guy ever made. Soule's music had tons of soul back then. But now he's composing what the target audience wants to hear. Oh well.

Edit: not four violins. Two violins, a viola and a cello.

Edit:

I swear this is from the cover of the only Dragonlance novel I ever read. And I even liked it, as a kid. Man, I wish I could buy all those Dragonlance novels for cheap somewhere, I think I am immature enough to still like them.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Morrowind main theme was pretty good though

 

[Ahzaruuk]

Morrowind main theme was pretty good though

Why does everyone like it? It's a fucking flute solo that's repeated.

It's possibly my most hated vidogame music Piece thus far.

I never got to hear his earlier music though.

 

[ghostdog]

Nice rant, but the generic-cliche story isn't just a problem in High fantasy setting, it's something that plagues everything from games to movies and so on. Mediocre stuff are easier made and the masses can be controlled into buying them without much effort.

 

[DraQ]

I can agree with point regarding bland and uninspired high fantasy, but, seriously, WTF is with this kitsch apotheosis? The sooner the developers drop the cheesy females in chainmail lingeries, along with the rest of the cliches, the better.

We need serious, consistent, original and inspired settings and stories, as opposed to currently prevalent themeparks of lulz.
Torment was good. Morrowind, despite it's roleplaying and storytelling shortcomings also did quite well. We need moar.

RegardingSoule, I wouldn't call him bad, but he is, if you excuse my pun, kind of soulless. It's not bad when you listen to one of his tracks once or twice, but listening to him looping over and over again for several hours can start to grind one's sanity away.

Give me something by this guy who made Fallout/PS:T music - not only it's more interesting, but prolonged exposure to it is far more tollerable.
Plus, the ultimate argument: DEIONARRA THEME!!1oneone

 

[Andhaira]

You may have already played them, but if not I suggest wizardry 8 and wizards and warriors. Also, might nad magic 7 Oh and realms of arkania (any)

 

[JarlFrank]

Of course I played them! Wizardry 9 would be one of those games that would make me most happy if they ever were made.

 

[Monolith]

Of course I played them! Wizardry 9 would be one of those games that would make me most happy if they ever were made.

Don't say that too loudly, Bethesda might hear you.

 

[Top Hat]

I think that there's probably a little bit of nostalgia going on when it comes to the stories of the older RPGs. However, what I think saved them was that they were quite challenging from a gameplay perspective that the "epic" feeling was actually "epic".

For example, let's take Might and Magic I. To be honest, I haven't played it in a while and I didn't get very far into it. But I did have a lot of fun playing it; much more so than playing Oblivion.

Why? Let's consider MMI first:
* No automap - which means having to manually map out everything first (which includes testing the "walls" to see if they were SOLID! or IMPASSABLE! or not).
* High difficulty - since you can't save where you please, and your (well, at least my) party has to be very careful not to get wiped out from the hordes of SAVAGE SHREWS or whatever that are wandering about, means having to actually plan out your spells, etc. in advance.
* Variety of foes - SAVAGE SHREWS. Enough said.
* Poisons, diseases, etc. that actually have a serious effect; with cures that are quite costly for the fledgling adventurer or six.
* Small inventory.

Let us now compare Oblivion:
* Quite probably the most overpowered automap in any game.
* Maladjusted level scaling.
* Monsters from My First Monster Set.
* MM1:Oblivion::AIDS:common rhinovirus.
* Magical U-HAUL for all your armor/weaponry needs.

Other older games are similarly difficult. I think that their storylines seem better since you have to struggle to accomplish them, rather than AUTOWALK-INTERACT-KILL SOMETHING-AUTOWALK-REWARD.

The fact that the games are easier and have better graphics probably just gives you more game-time to realize just how bad the stories in games are in general.


I've got a request for clarification: is it the story or the setting that you are complaining about? Because I'd prefer some autocreated fantasy world with an interesting story than an OMGKEWL world with mature themes but an anaemic story (assuming it's the type of RPG with an important story).

 

[thesheeep]

Oblivion and NWN 2 would be good examples of what first comes to your mind, where story and locations just seem boring and uninspired, not like a true piece of art but much rather like a lack of creativity of the artists, or just laziness.

Totally true. There is a lack of creativity. But artists are not the ones to blame. Artists only do the work they are ordered to do. Their job is to grasp what the designer has in his mind (by receiving concept art, or texts from him/her, etc.) and to bring that to a texture or model. Not more. Not less. Well some may be game designers as well, but nvm that here ...
The real "evil" behind all this are the designers, the CEOs, the producers, the project managers... whoever is responsible for the "big picture" (or "masterplan".. whatever you want to call it).

But that's not what high fantasy is about. Totally not. Back when I played the old Wizardries and Might and Magics, those did amaze and immerse me. Those had nice stories and worlds. Why? Is it just nostalgia? Or is there more to it? I think there's a bit more to it. The stories were extremely kitschy and cliché, like, "Go to that evil tower of blackest doom to find the awesome amulet of utmost power, and then use it to kill the dark wizard of Uzuu'kruul!"
But that was actually a part of what held the charme of those games. It was cliché, but it felt epic. It was generic, but it felt cool.

I somewhat feel sorry to say that, as it shows myself that I can't really enjoy such oldschool-PnP-stuff, but I disagree here.
They do not amaze me. They do not immerse me. I find them boring and uninspired. I find them to be too much cliché.
Such stories, as your example, are what I seriously never want to see in any game, as every (and yes, EVERY) halfway capable DM can come up with such stuff.

I guess that shows that it depends on personal preference which kind of high fantasy story you prefer. The more nerdy stuff from back then or the less nerdy, but more generic stuff from todays games.
You seem to prefer the first, I seem to prefer the latter.

But I don't want to argue about that. Let's just agree that todays games show a lack of creativity in just too many aspects.

"Enter the Dark Towers of Urkuul!" or something like that just sounds way more interesting than "Close the Oblivion Gates!".

Just a quote to show what I mean. For me... both sound retarded and boring.

You had your small party of adventurers and set out on an epic goal to fight an evil wizard and retrieve an ancient artifact. It's actually a lot easier to identify with than a random hero who was in prison for one reason or another and suddenly gets elected by the emperor himself to save the world. Meh, it just tries to hard.

True... but did you really have to pick the beginning of Morrowind/Oblivion to show what you want to say? Those TES beginnings are just lazy and a poor excuse. But what about those of BG? NWN2?
They are a LOT better, IMHO, as they give you some kind of background.
Or even better, games like Arcanum that let you (more or less) CHOOSE your own background.

Also, the artstyle. [...Jarl gets off to the art style...] and then you got *real* high-fantasy, not some generic stuff that has no heart or soul behind it.

True, again.
The artstyle of those old games and/or fantasy art pictures with their high fantasy feeling really are better than what you get today.

A game that can only be made by people who love RPGs, and don't just want to reach a commercial success. Yes, that would be HEAVAN.

*sob*

 

[thesheeep]

I agree with whoever said that both sound equally boring and retarded.

You were too lazy to look up the name of the poster before you? ^^

 

[Lesifoere]

Pfft, we're all part of the hivemind anyway, does it matter? ;D

 

[thesheeep]

Since we are also all alts of KC, I guess not.

 

[DraQ]

I find Elmore's art kitschy and hideous. Always did, still do. Don't see why people keep looking back to them with such nostal--oh, that's right. Nostalgia. My god, look at those faces. The eyes are soulless. The people dress like idiots. Jesus buggering Christ, their expressions are frozen into this strange grimace, as if they are perpetually constipated.

Wholeheartedly agreed. I've seen a lot of better furry art in my life. Which is telling.

What am I missing here?

Twoflower's rose-tinted glasses?

 

[The_Pope]

I think it's nostalgia. I liked the early heroes of might and magic games as a kid, and like them now because of that. Playing other games with that level of fantasy kitsch just puts me off.