High Fantasy: Why always so generic?

sgc_meltdown · Aug 26, 2011

octavius · Aug 26, 2011

I don't think anyone has mentioned Malazan - Book of the Fallen yet. Now, that is one world which would fit much better in a CRPG than as literature. I think it falls short as good literature, but the world and magic system and is fairly original.

4m3rica · Aug 26, 2011

villain of the story · Aug 26, 2011

Lesifoere said:
I find Elmore's art kitschy and hideous. Always did, still do. Don't see why people keep looking back to them with such nostal--oh, that's right. Nostalgia. My god, look at those faces. The eyes are soulless. The people dress like idiots. Jesus buggering Christ, their expressions are frozen into this strange grimace, as if they are perpetually constipated. What am I missing here?

Let's come clean now. What you really mean to say is that figures in Elmore's art are all white and you obviously have no sympathy towards or empathy for the white race. If he made even one asian person, your opinion of his art would be different.

:troll:

Elmore has his moments. Generally I find good qualities in his art despite how amateur most of his stuff is but overall, he has numerous betters on Deviant Art or Concept Art.org alone. He was extremely lucky with timing of his art and the market conditions back then where he managed to fill a very specific wish-fulfilment niche along with other people and left his mark. Can't even imagine anything like that happening ever again any time soon because we have the internet, we have shitloads of people doing comparable if not better work and yet still going unnoticed.

Still, cut the guy some slack, he had his moments of brilliance that stands out from the rest of his work. It's only sad that he wasn't very self-conscious about himself or his art because I think he had what it takes to do so much better.

Phelot · Aug 26, 2011

Do we all understand that this thread is from 2008? I don't think we all understand that.

villain of the story · Aug 26, 2011

Do you understand yourself, phelot? You are getting worse. I read that other thread. It's no good news. Don't let Codex's false comfort nurture you, it's only delaying the inevitable.

fucking stalin_brando and his fucking necrofuckomancy >: (

Phelot · Aug 26, 2011

JarlFrank was probably like 15 when he made this thread.

Anyway, I guess I should comment.

High Fantasy is a pretty "safe" bet when establishing your fantasy world. Not a whole lot of work has to go into it. You have elves and most people know right off the bat what to expect. Same goes with dwarves and the "corruptable" humans. You've got a dragon so of course he's got a horde/is evil/is awesome/can talk/whatever.

Basically, you don't have to explain anything, it's already a given. Even those things that we associate remain. Some fantasy world with all these strange beings still has carrots, potatoes(of course!) and cows and chickens. These things are comfortable and common so no explanation for what they are or why they're there is needed. Cuts down on the lore.

Of course you have a few settings that try to deviate by making elves terrorists or dragons the good guys. Whatever, I say.

That isn't to say that this is all bad. You can still make generic fantasy settings interesting and/or aesthetically pleasing. Who doesn't like sparkling fairies and shit like that?

JarlFrank · Aug 26, 2011

I still hold to my opinion that high fantasy can be done right. It might still be generic, but it can be visually impressive and awesome and the story can give the player a sense of adventure.

High fantasy done wrong: Oblivion, Dragon Age. Those are just generic without adding anything that's either visually impressive or gives the player a sense of adventure and/or mystery.

DraQ · Aug 26, 2011

Lesifoere said:
I find Elmore's art kitschy and hideous. Always did, still do. Don't see why people keep looking back to them with such nostal--oh, that's right. Nostalgia. My god, look at those faces. The eyes are soulless. The people dress like idiots. Jesus buggering Christ, their expressions are frozen into this strange grimace, as if they are perpetually constipated. What am I missing here?

His dragons look derp too.

I never liked his crap, or most of other typical old fantasy illustrations for that matter.

And high fantasy is generally derp.

sgc_meltdown · Aug 26, 2011

DraQ said:
His dragons look derp too.

Undead Phoenix · Aug 26, 2011

Franky has a point. Personally, I think they go wrong because they take themselves too seriously: not the only place, but the only one I can be arsed to point out at this moment in time.

Lesifoere · Aug 26, 2011

Wow what the fuck are those? They have bunny ears.

Jasede · Aug 26, 2011

What are they doing?

DraQ · Aug 26, 2011

I'm just waiting for sgc_meltdown to explain the relevance of the pic he posted.

Johannes · Aug 26, 2011

They look kinda cool in all their wtf-ness.

Brotherman Bill · Aug 27, 2011

I like the cock protector. Nothing says "man" like having a so raging boner when fighting that it needs its own armor piece.

PorkaMorka · Aug 27, 2011

Generic high fantasy is probably a pretty terrible setting for a book.

But for a game it's kind of awesome.

The "everything but the kitchen sink" aspect of generic high fantasy means that the developer has a lot more freedom than he would have in a coherent and consistent setting.

If he has a neat idea for a tactically interesting encounter with a monster, he is free to include that monster. If you're writing a game set in Westeros, you can't include gelatinous cubes or ropers, even if you have an interesting idea for an encounter with them. If you're writing a game set in fantasy Japan it might seem out of place to throw in unicorns, even if you have an idea for a fun encounter with unicorns.

Same goes for character abilities... you can give each class the abilities you want to make the game as tactically interesting as possible, you don't have to explore the implications of having certain abilities like resurrection widely available. You can even randomly throw in martial arts monks in a setting that is otherwise 100% full of white people and nobody will bat an eye, probably difficult to pull off in a well written setting.

Same idea for playable races. Most well written settings would probably not have a broad spectrum of tactically interesting races that are happy to form parties together. Generic fantasy does and allows the developer to add another thing to party creation for the player to think about.

Machocruz · Aug 27, 2011

Hate to say it, but for a while there Japan was kicking the shit out of the west in terms of designing high fantasy worlds and coming up with creatures and races outside of DnD and Tolkien (yes, I know they copy alot from Star Wars). But then after FF7 they devolved to the overdesigned armor and monsters you see in 10 .

Alan Lee and John Howe are the last fantasy illustrators who have an understanding of classic art principles. Maybe Brom too. Seems everyone else is about spines on top of spines, blue-green dungeons, spikes, buster swords, WOW cake armor, and high chroma colors everywhere. Or the other method is to try to ape Sargent or Zorn, with desaturated color and rough "paint" application, but none of their understanding of drawing or form.

Quilty · Aug 27, 2011

Johannes said:
They look kinda cool in all their wtf-ness.

Stop the lies, man!

@herostratus: That look wicked cool. Where is that from?

Clockwork Knight · Aug 27, 2011

So that's why Fez never came back, he learned what a bishie boy is.

(kinda funny how his avatar is the closest Arcanum gets to a bishie boy portrait)

sgc_meltdown · Aug 27, 2011

DraQ said:
I'm just waiting for sgc_meltdown to explain the relevance of the pic he posted.

nothing sinister implied there
you mentioned derp dragons son, you can't get more derp than a wolfbirdrabbit dragon

Quilty said:
@herostratus: That look wicked cool. Where is that from?

why sir it's from my image dump further up the page that all of three people have looked at here is the first one for example

if you meant where is that particular picture from I suggest you look a little more closely

CappenVarra · Aug 27, 2011

sgc_meltdown said:
As a supplement to the discussion I'd like to post the kind of imagery that I'd be happy to see the likes of in high fantasy games.
No particular order, will likely be character/creature-centric. Not saying that any of them are really exceptional or are here to sell a new concept that will blow cynical codexian cerebrums, but I feel they keep in line with the otherworldly feel of high fantasy without resorting to the usual styles of artwork you find in book covers from the 80s and early 90s (y'know, dwarf, elf, knight, tits, dragon)

and that these are the slightly different directions that games need to go with instead of ham handed yet painfully generic DA style nonsense.

all SFW with perhaps some slight gore

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I've got this nagging feeling that one of these things is not like the others...

sgc_meltdown · Aug 27, 2011

CappenVarra said:
I've got this nagging feeling that one of these things is not like the others

fuck yes that makes four people who have looked at that post

I love it when a plan comes together

anyway Mr Varra I don't know what you're talking about, the ship can well be a magically enhanced perhaps even sentient construct of some kind and hence quite eligible for the genre

CappenVarra · Aug 27, 2011

sgc_meltdown said:
...the ship can well be a magically enhanced perhaps even sentient construct of some kind and hence quite eligible for the genre

Make the background Antarctica i.e. the Mountains of Madness, and I might concur. Even if the appalling lack of girls makes the image somewhat not "high" (refined, transcendental, made from noble materials etc.) enough for "high fantasy".

sgc_meltdown · Aug 27, 2011

FINE HERE'S YOUR DAMN ROMANCEABLE SHIP YOU DAMN PURIST

High Fantasy: Why always so generic?

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