Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Historical Revisionism in Video Game and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

Gastrick

Cipher
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
1,775
What I mean is that the whole world map is not connected. Everything else has nothing to do with what I said. Also, I'm pretty sure the Super Mario for DS had the same world map as SMB3, with branching paths, etc. But it's been a long time since I played it, though.
Gastrick I see. Then it's sad that SMB3 world map will be forever buried among the NES games.
With New Super Mario Bros, it lacks a giant world or pipe world, and the visual style for all of them is quite different. Nintendo is pretty good about making their old games available, so not really buried; also that emulation is quite easy and has more options than ever
 

Machocruz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
4,634
Location
Hyperborea
While I was trolling Nutmeg and making him go crazy with being an ignorant turd, I thought a bit more about the title of the thread "Historical Revisionism in Video Game and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race."

Historical revisionism of video games isn't really a disaster for the human race, because its such an ephemeral hobby with almost no bigger
I thought it was just supposed to be a cheeky title based on the Unabomber quote.

And yeah, there's a short-term memory problem but there's is still also a revisionism problem that is based on the opposite: people suddenly having a long memory when it comes time to make statements about what was going on over 35 years ago. The example I often use are the Zelda 2 memes. "It's a black sheep!", "it wasn't well received/popular". I'm old, I read all the magazines at the time, saw the monthly sales charts, watched all 2 video game shows that were around, talked games with a lot of people in and out of school. Hardly anyone or anywhere had a bad thing to say about the game. Maybe they didn't like it as much as the first one, which was understandable. In all the other regards it was a hit.

How about the famous " turn-based was only because of technical limitations" meme, which is mind boggingly dumb if you know anything about video game history. Weren't some of the earliest games, if not THE first one, running in real time? We had action-rpgs on console and real-time dungeon crawlers on computer at least as far back as the 80s.. OMGezus everything has been archaic(tm) and outdated(tm) this whole time!

Oh but I found my new favorite meme not more than 2 weeks ago. Guess what guys? The Ultima series was not influential and had no real impact and no one cared about it at the time. Updated my journal.

And none of that has anything to do with console war shit, as someone else claimed. It's revising history by claiming things were a certain way that weren't
 

Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
11,379
Location
Nottingham
Oh but I found my new favorite meme not more than 2 weeks ago. Guess what guys? The Ultima series was not influential and had no real impact and no one cared about it at the time. Updated my journal.

And none of that has anything to do with console war shit, as someone else claimed. It's revising history by claiming things were a certain way that weren't
This is exactly the type of bollocks that needs calling out.

GamrRants 10 Most Influential RPGs of all time:
  1. Skyrim
  2. Dark Souls
  3. Diablo 3
  4. Fallout 3
  5. Witcher 3
  6. Final Fantasy 7
  7. Mass Effect 2
  8. World of Warcraft
  9. Dragon Age: Origins
  10. KOTOR
I mean, I agree with the odd one like Final Fantasy 7, but no Ultima, Wizardry or Rogue etc. is wild to me.
 

Nutmeg

Arcane
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
24,702
Location
Mahou Kingdom
I agree with the odd one like Final Fantasy 7
FF7 was influential, and it had potential (its system was an evolution and generalization of FF5's class based menu customization system), but IMO it was a let down in almost all of its other aspects (especially encounter design after FF5 and to a lesser extent 6).
 

Silverfish

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
4,042
GamrRants 10 Most Influential RPGs of all time:
  1. Skyrim

I have a higher tolerance for Skyrim than the average Codexer, but this is still legitimately insane. I can think of maybe two games that took any real influence from it and even they went no further than "open world and casual", ignoring any of it's genuinely impressive elements.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,849
Location
The Satellite Of Love
Yeah I'm trying to figure that list out. Dark Souls is an obvious entry given how many of its mechanics have, for better or worse, seeped into everything. Fallout 3 definitely had a big impact on subsequent RPGs and helped to popularise and codify the in-dialogue [Skill Check] system and quests with multiple skill-based solutions to a mainstream audience, which became a standard in later RPGs. WoW was a titan in its day (even if it was one of the crappier MMOs on the market) and I suppose FF7 made jRPGs briefly popular in the West.

Were Diablo 3, Mass Effect 2, and Dragon Age Origins notably influential? Diablo 1 is surely the game that briefly turned every RPG into an ARPG, and I genuinely can't think of elements of DA:O or ME2 that had a clear impact on gaming at large. I guess they maybe popularised the "go to camp between missions to flirt with everyone and get loyalty missions" thing that briefly appeared in every game ever. Skyrim's sort of in a weird gray zone; nobody directly copied it but maybe the reasoning is that it helped to popularise the "open world with crafting systems and endless sidequests" model that was already occurring but which companies like Ubisoft would take to parodic proportions over the next decade.
 

Hellraiser

Arcane
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
11,954
Location
Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
GamrRants 10 Most Influential RPGs of all time:
...
Diablo 3

What the fuck did Diablo 3 even inspire or influence? It's a game that had no features or improvements that made it stand out from anything, apart from the ill-fated real money auction house.

It had a total of ZERO impact on anything, because it invented nothing. The game could have never existed and nobody would fucking notice. It will be at best a footnote somewhere in a dusty tome on the history of once great but long gone game developer companies, maybe mentioning that this was the first Blizzard game in many years that didn't really popularize anything, a telltale sign that Blizzard already at that point lost it's spark and became another creatively bankrupt studio.
 
Last edited:

Inec0rn

Educated
Joined
Sep 10, 2024
Messages
426
You guys should really stop reading and supporting websites that make lists like that.

I consider D3 the most disappointing game ever released (because people really believed after D1 and D2, and lack of ARPG games in the space it was an obvious slamdunk), I could credit D3 and WoW's influence to suckering a fortune out of slop gamers though with its predatory monetisation. (i never played WoW as i heavily disagree with its monetisation).

Fallout 3 was skyrim skinned with fallout /w pretty bad gunplay - it inspired absolutely nothing and branching dialog and CnC etc. were present in many games beforehand... like the ones that inspired the original fallout games?

You could maybe say Skyrim accidentally inspired the sandbox / survival games because that's what the mod community provided. It's such a shit list lol, no minecraft? no doom/wolfenstein, no xcom, no star control / starflight, no goldbox or bards tale etc, no c&c/dune2, No anotherworld/metroid/castlevania... we could go on and on.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,849
Location
The Satellite Of Love
Looking at the list now and the site's one of those content farms for freelancers. The writer probably doesn't have much interest in RPGs and just searched for popular ones or chose a handful of ones they liked to fire off an article and get £20 or whatever, which you can't fault them for. The editors probably specified games from the last ten years (keeping the "of all time" title because it's better for SEO). I wouldn't take it too seriously, it's just writers making a living and not always getting to write about things they really know or care much about.
 

S.torch

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,213
GamrRants 10 Most Influential RPGs of all time:
  1. Skyrim
  2. Dark Souls
  3. Diablo 3
  4. Fallout 3
  5. Witcher 3
  6. Final Fantasy 7
  7. Mass Effect 2
  8. World of Warcraft
  9. Dragon Age: Origins
  10. KOTOR
Those games are definitely influential. Dark Souls alone has had enough impact in gaming to create its own genre of copy-cats.

Diablo and World of Warcraft segmented the MMO genre with all their evils and predatory practices.

Final Fantasy 7 established what was a JRPG in people's head from more than a decade.

Is just that influential is not synonymous with "good".
 

Nutmeg

Arcane
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
24,702
Location
Mahou Kingdom
I was going to say, the essential issue of the post is not covered here, but if you say we're not done then sure.
Indeed. With the rest of your post you seem to (understandably) struggle with the phrase "meaningful content".

Since I used it first, and it was vague, I'll specify what I meant hopefully a bit better.

First of all, I hate the word "content", lets replace it with "world geometry" and "opponents".

The game of Zelda is fundamentally a game of moving the character you possess from A to B. You start from A, and you win by getting to B, and you lose by the character you posses dying on the way there. To get to B you first need to go to C, do D, defeat E etc. etc. but the goal is to get to B.

Players can make their own games on top of this and arguably you can say there may be designed sub games or categories of game (e.g. get a particular ending, or collect all the N things, defeat the TLB etc.) within the main A to B game. We can consider these too.

So whether world geometry and the opponents therein are *meaningful* in the context of a game of "get from A to B", refers to how interesting the former is to navigate and the latter is to overcome.
 
Last edited:

Gastrick

Cipher
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
1,775
If someone doesn't care then they simply don't care. Accessibility moves like this are mostly for the benefit of bored idiots who don't really care about anything and will just kind of coast through this stuff as a meaningless flashing light show. I get that from without video games can seem obtuse and impenetrable. Only way I see to really fix that is human connections. I have personally led outsiders into appreciating video games. The hard part isn't really finding them or getting them running. It's what to make of all of this and how to move through it. The whole entire steam catalog and GOG and the rest, they don't really make things much easier than piracy. It's still a bewildering monolith of a culture.

If these historian types on youtube actually cared about video games (I've never gotten the impression they do) they could try to lead people in, explain from zero. But it seems like on the whole it's more of a poser arms-race that only makes things worse.

A true, deep appreciation of video games is extremely rare even if not especially among self proclaimed gamers.
From what I can see, outside of games that test your perseverance and mental adaptability to make progress, the only other value comes from discussing them with other people, or with multiplayer, playing in a social setting. As well as the very very few of them contain stories of value.
 
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
1,965
GamrRants 10 Most Influential RPGs of all time:
  1. Skyrim
  2. Dark Souls
  3. Diablo 3
  4. Fallout 3
  5. Witcher 3
  6. Final Fantasy 7
  7. Mass Effect 2
  8. World of Warcraft
  9. Dragon Age: Origins
  10. KOTOR
Those games are definitely influential. Dark Souls alone has had enough impact in gaming to create its own genre of copy-cats.

Diablo and World of Warcraft segmented the MMO genre with all their evils and predatory practices.

Final Fantasy 7 established what was a JRPG in people's head from more than a decade.

Is just that influential is not synonymous with "good".
Even in its own series, though, Diablo II was far more influential than Diablo 3. Games like Path of Exile and Titan Quest were inspired by Diablo II, not Diablo 3, and whatever influence the Diablo series has had on the rest of gaming with regards to item stat systems definitely came mainly from II. So picking Diablo 3 indicates that the journalist involved is either retarded or on the take (or both, which is most likely for a journalist).

I also don't think Skyrim, or any Bethesda game, belongs on an "influential" list. I wouldn't say they have zero influence, I'm sure there's a little bit here and there... but not enough to call them influential. Bethesda's near monopoly in their own little space is proof enough of that.
 

zaze

Novice
Joined
Sep 4, 2023
Messages
34
Oh but I found my new favorite meme not more than 2 weeks ago. Guess what guys? The Ultima series was not influential and had no real impact and no one cared about it at the time. Updated my journal.

And none of that has anything to do with console war shit, as someone else claimed. It's revising history by claiming things were a certain way that weren't
This is exactly the type of bollocks that needs calling out.

GamrRants 10 Most Influential RPGs of all time:
  1. Skyrim
  2. Dark Souls
  3. Diablo 3
  4. Fallout 3
  5. Witcher 3
  6. Final Fantasy 7
  7. Mass Effect 2
  8. World of Warcraft
  9. Dragon Age: Origins
  10. KOTOR
I mean, I agree with the odd one like Final Fantasy 7, but no Ultima, Wizardry or Rogue etc. is wild to me.
Top 10 Most Influential RPGs for people who never touched RPGs
 

S.torch

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,213
Games like Path of Exile and Titan Quest were inspired by Diablo II
The point is not so much they influenced ARPGs, as they segmented the always-online game as a service stuff. Not to mention the paying for cosmetic and other irrelevant crap inside a game. In this sense Blizzard is one of the biggest influences in gaming, just not a good one.
 

BlackAdderBG

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
3,304
Location
Little Vienna
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Games like Path of Exile and Titan Quest were inspired by Diablo II
The point is not so much they influenced ARPGs, as they segmented the always-online game as a service stuff. Not to mention the paying for cosmetic and other irrelevant crap inside a game. In this sense Blizzard is one of the biggest influences in gaming, just not a good one.
Not even close, the Koreans were years ahead of anything Diablo 3 had put in terms of scummy monetization or cosmetics and terms like "Korean MMO" or "Korean monetization" been a go-to when talking about shit monetization. WoW had way more influence on always online part, but even that was not that influential as it already came to a genre where that was requirement to even function. Bnet is a kind of a precursor to always online and I would say it had bigger influence than anything Blizzard has ever created after 2005.
GamrRants 10 Most Influential RPGs of all time:
  1. Skyrim
  2. Dark Souls
  3. Diablo 3
  4. Fallout 3
  5. Witcher 3
  6. Final Fantasy 7
  7. Mass Effect 2
  8. World of Warcraft
  9. Dragon Age: Origins
  10. KOTOR

Half of these are not even RPGs and you can even see that in the games they "influenced".
 
Zionist Agent
Joined
Feb 18, 2023
Messages
180

Nutmeg

Arcane
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
24,702
Location
Mahou Kingdom
For context on the supposed influence of Herzog Zwei on Dunc 2:

Nutmegian faction: Virgin Interactive VP saying Dune II only existed because of Herzog Zwei - https://web.archive.org/web/20030504034920/http://www.above-the-garage.com/rblts/vie16b.htm

Graukenite faction: Brett Sperry saying the influences were mostly Civilization, Populous, making SSI Wargames more action-based, and the Mac interface - https://web.archive.org/web/2013021...ge-online.com/features/the-making-of-dune-ii/
He doesn't in any way deny that Herzog Zwei was an inspiration tho

"Herzog Zwei was a lot of fun, but I have to say the other inspiration for Dune II was the Mac software interface. The whole design/interface dynamics of mouse clicking ...

Things can have multiple inspirations. Herzog Zwei is still Dune 2's daddy and it shows in the final product (even more so for Z)
 

S.torch

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,213
the Koreans were years ahead
Is not about who did it first, is about who had more impact. And thinking that WoW was not the genre defining "game service" in which every other one based their model is denying reality. They might be a shadow now, but a few years back every time you said "MMO" people only thought of WoW. They had a massive cultural impact and even got their own South Park episode dedicated. Whether some other guys took after them later or tested the waters before isn't relevant.
 

Gastrick

Cipher
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
1,775
Ultima Online was innovative and inspired Runescape and WoW as well.
Yes, naturally games that create genres are going to have more historical influence than entries 5-30 years later. On the tree of which ones rely on others for existing in the first place, and which ones don't. Also the further back the wider the scope of things that are influenced.
 
Last edited:

Inec0rn

Educated
Joined
Sep 10, 2024
Messages
426
one would say that would make them far more influential than clones with less features made 5-30 years later then no? :roll:
 
Zionist Agent
Joined
Feb 18, 2023
Messages
180
For context on the supposed influence of Herzog Zwei on Dunc 2:

Nutmegian faction: Virgin Interactive VP saying Dune II only existed because of Herzog Zwei - https://web.archive.org/web/20030504034920/http://www.above-the-garage.com/rblts/vie16b.htm

Graukenite faction: Brett Sperry saying the influences were mostly Civilization, Populous, making SSI Wargames more action-based, and the Mac interface - https://web.archive.org/web/2013021...ge-online.com/features/the-making-of-dune-ii/
He doesn't in any way deny that Herzog Zwei was an inspiration tho

"Herzog Zwei was a lot of fun, but I have to say the other inspiration for Dune II was the Mac software interface. The whole design/interface dynamics of mouse clicking ...

Things can have multiple inspirations. Herzog Zwei is still Dune 2's daddy and it shows in the final product (even more so for Z)
He's obviously responding to HZ being brought up - on his own initiative he cites the other games and wants to emphasize the Mac interface.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom