Preview Hordes of the Underdark pre-gander at GameSpy

[Sharpei_Diem]

hmmm....i thought he was in the one by the firewine bridge in bg1...

where is volour when you want him?

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

I thought Beholders were still a nightmarish encounter in BG2. Unless you cheesed your ass off, like using that cloak that deflected all the cast spells back at the caster. And I killed lichs with the mace of disruption that killed them instantly. Which is basicly cheating, sicne it ignored every protection like a hot knife going through butter.

It feels really cheap to do stuff like that, but then again, throwing 20 beholders, elder orbs and the like in one tiny lair or putting a lich in an inn is cheap as hell, too.

in BG2 beholders, lichs and dragons were (1) ubiquitous (2) pains in the ass re: combat

in all the PnP I have ever played they are (1) rare (2) as serious an encounter as you are likely to have. Thus facing a few of any of these in the entire life of a character would be an extraordinary adventuring life. In BG2 you face what? 4 dragons, 2 or 3 Beholder lairs, possibly several lichs and possibly two illithid lairs. Oh and Admantium golems, greater wolfweres, countless djinns, the Shadow Thieves Main Guild, the Harpers....these are all powerful entities in DnD. I understand that they had to accomodate the high level of characters but this was just overkill for me. I still liked the BG games but in spite of all this, not because of it. so maybe it is my predilcition for enjoying games when the level max is no more then say, 10. But when you include all this stuff (and a freaking demogorgon) it removes all the rep of these critters/entities. "Well one dragon won't be ennough to challlenge a level 18 party...let's throw in 4."
Dragons used to be about as nasty an encounter as you would ever face. When you throw in four they're just another critter.

The demogorgon was *definetly* in Throne of Bhall (BG2 expansion) *not* Tales of the Sword Coast (BG1 expansion).

 

[Rayt]

hmmm....i thought he was in the one by the firewine bridge in bg1...

where is volour when you want him?

That was just a powerfull Ogre mage. The one that appears after the insane woman calls his name if you try to get her possessed jar or something.

 

[Rayt]

I thought Beholders were still a nightmarish encounter in BG2. Unless you cheesed your ass off, like using that cloak that deflected all the cast spells back at the caster. And I killed lichs with the mace of disruption that killed them instantly. Which is basicly cheating, sicne it ignored every protection like a hot knife going through butter.

It feels really cheap to do stuff like that, but then again, throwing 20 beholders, elder orbs and the like in one tiny lair or putting a lich in an inn is cheap as hell, too.

in BG2 beholders, lichs and dragons were (1) ubiquitous (2) pains in the ass re: combat

in all the PnP I have ever played they are (1) rare (2) as serious an encounter as you are likely to have. Thus facing a few of any of these in the entire life of a character would be an extraordinary adventuring life. In BG2 you face what? 4 dragons, 2 or 3 Beholder lairs, possibly several lichs and possibly two illithid lairs. Oh and Admantium golems, greater wolfweres, countless djinns, the Shadow Thieves Main Guild, the Harpers....these are all powerful entities in DnD. I understand that they had to accomodate the high level of characters but this was just overkill for me. I still liked the BG games but in spite of all this, not because of it. so maybe it is my predilcition for enjoying games when the level max is no more then say, 10. But when you include all this stuff (and a freaking demogorgon) it removes all the rep of these critters/entities. "Well one dragon won't be ennough to challlenge a level 18 party...let's throw in 4."
Dragons used to be about as nasty an encounter as you would ever face. When you throw in four they're just another critter.

The demogorgon was *definetly* in Throne of Bhall (BG2 expansion) *not* Tales of the Sword Coast (BG1 expansion).

I think in the end, Bioware put them in for the sake of variety, so people didn''t have to kill humans and elves over and over again. The fact it doesn't make sense doesn't seem to matter to Bioware, or the masses of people who bougth the game. Doesn't really matter to me either, since I know, well, nothing about D&D. Though after reading up on some general monster and world stuff I can see why it annoys the hell out of a lot of people.


About Demogorgon; they should have put two options in it: either seal the place shut (good option, since you sort of saved humanity, for a while) or doing nothing and let other people deal with it (and possibly having the creature set loose on the farmlands of Amn, which doesn't matter since you're going to be a god anyway). Or maybe if you fought it would have banished all your party members to the abyss and spared you because you're playing a signifcant role in Faerun. you know, something that makes sense. 4 tanks with greater whirlwind hacking a prince of demons to death in 8 seconds wouldn't be that.


Hmm, maybe Sharpei_Diem means that end boss (the leader of the cult) in TotSC, who can turn your partmembers into ghouls with some kind of death stare. Or he means the Death Knight in Durlag's Tower.

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

hmmm...thanks tuvok, you're right..

though for the life of me, I still keep thinking its durlags tower(not arguing, since i did a quick search online and all results popped up Shadows of Amn pages)....stupid brain, c'mere let me stab you with another q-tip...

as far as options, i don't think the player should have the option of fighting, similar to how PS:T handled the lady of pain...A nice cinematic showing you ripped to shreds.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I think in the end, Bioware put them in for the sake of variety, so people didn''t have to kill humans and elves over and over again. The fact it doesn't make sense doesn't seem to matter to Bioware, or the masses of people who bougth the game. Doesn't really matter to me either, since I know, well, nothing about D&D. Though after reading up on some general monster and world stuff I can see why it annoys the hell out of a lot of people.

I dunno, I got a little sick of killing dragons in NWN's chapter 3, not to mention how lame it was to have unlike dragons all nesting together on one mountain. I don't think BioWare throws in dragons for variety, I think they throw them in so they can say, d00dz, j00 can killz0rz l0tz of ph4t dr4g0nz! LEWL! NWN also sprinkled in several liches too.

 

[Rayt]

I dunno, I got a little sick of killing dragons in NWN's chapter 3, not to mention how lame it was to have unlike dragons all nesting together on one mountain. I don't think BioWare throws in dragons for variety, I think they throw them in so they can say, d00dz, j00 can killz0rz l0tz of ph4t dr4g0nz! LEWL! NWN also sprinkled in several liches too.

Yeah, but dragons, liches, fire giants, dire badgers, etc; they're only there so the player has something to kill. And at level 15 and higher there isn't much left that poses a threat to you. And dragons are also there to guard some awesome loot.

But I don't think anyone who doesn't know D&D and plays NWN will see dragons as awesome opponents. Not in NWN.

 

[Psilon]

Saw this on the NWVault:

I'm not sure that there's a description of any plot that couldn't be reduced to its core elements and ridiculed in some way. For what it's worth, however, the major plot in HotU revolves around doing things and finding out about things rather than retrieving items.

Yup, he's definitely been reading our NWN threads. He also thinks that "you'll be pleasantly surprised with the options available to you (including, yes, the one type of Evil option we usually say we can never do)."

Speculation?

 

[Sabotai]

Interesting, Psilon.
Do you have a link?

 

[Psilon]

It's on the front page at Neverwinter Vault. Look at Monday's forum highlights.

 

[EEVIAC]

I'm not sure that there's a description of any plot that couldn't be reduced to its core elements and ridiculed in some way. For what it's worth, however, the major plot in HotU revolves around doing things and finding out about things rather than retrieving items.

That's not necessarily true - "Querelle of Brest" by Jean Genet - a book about sailors who bugger and kill each other. "Place Of Dead Roads" by William Burroughs - a meticulous dissertation on guns, gun fighting, and semantics and their relation to the ancient conception of eternal life.

Think harder, Dave.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yeah, but dragons, liches, fire giants, dire badgers, etc; they're only there so the player has something to kill. And at level 15 and higher there isn't much left that poses a threat to you. And dragons are also there to guard some awesome loot.

Maybe if NWN offered more than just dungeon after dungeon with progressively better monsters from start to finish, say like an INTERESTING TOWN OR TWO WITH MORE THAN TWO TO FOUR PEOPLE WHO SAID MORE THAN A SENTENCE OR TWO, then you'd never have gotten to level 15 and required liches and dragons to slay.

Even then, though, that doesn't explain why dragons were all dumped in one act and nesting close to one another.

B

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

A good DM can make a campaign interesting with just goblins elves and humans w/o resorting to lichs dragons and beholders every three fucking feet.
Yeah at lvl 15+ it gets increasingly difficult to make things hard (or interesting) for characters; so given this fact maybe we can conclude that every DnD game shouldn't let you level up to lvl 15.

Oh and FO managed to stay pretty damn interesting fighting mostly humans and mutants the entire game

 

[Rayt]

Yeah, but dragons, liches, fire giants, dire badgers, etc; they're only there so the player has something to kill. And at level 15 and higher there isn't much left that poses a threat to you. And dragons are also there to guard some awesome loot.

Maybe if NWN offered more than just dungeon after dungeon with progressively better monsters from start to finish, say like an INTERESTING TOWN OR TWO WITH MORE THAN TWO TO FOUR PEOPLE WHO SAID MORE THAN A SENTENCE OR TWO, then you'd never have gotten to level 15 and required liches and dragons to slay.

Even then, though, that doesn't explain why dragons were all dumped in one act and nesting close to one another.

B

Heh, it also doesn't explain why a level 15 character can beat a great red whyrm. Or is that more a 3rd edition flaw?

And yeah, NWN was all dungeon. Even though they tried to disguis it as a Red Mage tower in Luscan, a Fire Giant fortress, a ghost town or a zoo. It was all the same. That's the main thing that bugged me about NWN. Not the überness, the ph4t l3wt, the total sillyness about the enemies (like a good alligned gold dragon nesting next to a evil red one, not too menton the fact they usually live hundreds of miles apart, even if they're the same kind) the lack of roleplaying oppurtunities or the shallow npc's. It was the sheer blandness of everything and the corresponding boredom that killed it.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

Level 20 is the max in 3ed (excluding "epic" bullshit") so a *party* of lvl 15 chracters could certainly take on a dragon. A single character would get their ass handed back to them with a note saying : "Thanks for the laughs"

 

[Spazmo]

Depends on the dragon. A great wyrm red dragon--CR 25 or 26, I think--will handily rock the faces of a level 15 party. Hell, it'll be a fucking ridiculous battle for even a 20th level group.

Dragons are meant to be the meanest, nastiest, toughest fuckers ever.

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

Dragons are meant to be the meanest, nastiest, toughest fuckers ever.

meanest, nastiest, toughest, <i>mortal</i> fuckers ever.

My money's still on demogorgon

 

[Spazmo]

True enough. But even the word mortal is inaccurate: a dragon will rock any old lich's face. Let's call it the most powerful prime material creature.

 

[Volourn]

Not neccessarily true. Do not underestimate mortals willing to become undead in the pursuit of power. Liches are no billywags, and can hold their own against dragons.

 

[DrattedTin]

Especially liches played by a good human.

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

True enough. But even the word mortal is inaccurate: a dragon will rock any old lich's face. Let's call it the most powerful prime material creature.

I don't know of many realms that <i>really</i> got dragons right. I remember reading Dragons of Flame along time ago and one of the parts that got it right was the old, senile, blind and heavily wounded dragon using her weight and momentum to kill a younger, stronger, but inexperienced dragon.

Campaigns never seem to understand these kinds of things. They can fly out of reach. They can cast spells. They're intelligent. And they have their breath. In the open countryside, the only real way to defeat one would have to start by keeping it from flying(it could just fly around dropping boulders for hours if it wanted to)

played properly, i don't think anything would jump to the opportunity to attack one. Even volourn's lich....and logically, dragons wouldn't often venture into crypts or the deep recesses where liches would likely dwell: the environment removes one of its greatest strengths, movement, and turns another asset, size, into a disadvantage.

 

[Volourn]

Ahhh.. But, neitehr is the same lich stupid enough to battle a dragon wher eit is most powerful - out in the open. See, an empasse has been encountered. :shock:

 

[Ibbz]

" underdark and drow!" with a lawful dragon that will disguise you as you sneak into the drow city to recover her eggs!

Did anyone else actually give the eggs to the demon? Cause i did that and visited the white dragon again who was not pleased resulting in me being killed {in combat}. I then loaded it up again and kept the eggs - Anyone else try giving the eggs to the demon?

 

[DrattedTin]

Yep. Though I still think they should have made the demon more useful... like staying around longer than the city, as that area was a push-over fight anyways.