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Interview "How to make a Torment game" - Mega-Interview with Kevin Saunders and Adam Heine at Iron Tower

Midair

Learned
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
101
The biggest challenge for this game is probably having to follow the act of Planescape. Of course it is not exactly a sequel so much as a game with a similar strange fantasy setting and the name recognition of the word torment. From the interview, the gameplay sounds more like Arcanum.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
Alrite I haven't seen that old PR campaign. Makes me lose respect for it a lil bit. Thanks for cheapening my P:T experience Infinitron!
(I'm kidding)
(To some extent)

As for having read anything about it, yes I have, but I dislike burying people in my assumptions and conclusions. I generally comment on only the latest happenings.

If I was trolling, you would know because you'd leave the thread laughing out loud with a smile on your face.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. (The marketing game that is, not PS:T. Don't hate PS:T)

Although, the portraits and models for some of the female characters, like the upperclass Sigil dweller NPC, were also a bit...unrestrained.
 

Karellen

Arcane
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
327
lower common denominator to please

Uh, that's bullshit. Planescape: Torment was a game developed by a major publisher named Interplay for a mass market and featured promises of "HOT BABES" in its vision document.
Numenera on the other hand is custom-made for a niche audience of backers. Please don't fucking delude yourself.
I find it pretty intriguing how very different the T:ToN vision document is from the PS:T vision statement, actually. Of course, one is an internal document while the other one is intended for a general audience (you could call it a marketing document if you wanted to be mean about it), but nonetheless it will be interesting to see whether the differences between the documents will materialise in tangible differences between the games.

When you look at the PS:T document and compare it to the final product, it highlights a lot of things that people rarely mention while discussing why the game is so great (profound thematic content, lots of text, etc.) but which I think are actually pretty important for creating the particular mood of the game. For instance, as far as the "hot babes" thing goes, I'd say it's really one of the defining characteristics of the Nameless One - and one of the more important themes of the story, actually - that despite (or perhaps because of) his being a scarred, dried up hunk of meat that smells of formaldehyde, women are drawn to him. The game makes this point, too, since lot of characters comment on the Nameless One's appearance, which is one of the things that really sets the writing apart from games with no fixed protagonist.

Much of the PS:T writing isn't exactly subtle or high-brow, either - I'm really reminded here of MCA's comment in the Iron Tower roundtable about how the important thing about writing companions is to have an immediate, direct hook that makes them memorable and distinctive, and that they have strong personalities and opinions to allow them to act a sounding board the PC. I think a lot of people overlook that Torment is, in many ways, a flamboyant and occasionally very funny game. Of course, those qualities intertwine with the serious elements of the narrative, which gives the game a very distinctive tragicomic vibe, but the weirdness of it all is really one of those things that makes the game memorable, and I think a lot of that comes across in the vision document's "SO AWESOME!" attitude and fixation with ego-stroking. You could say that the PS:T starts with what is in many ways a wish-fulfillment premise and then dresses it down by examining all the problems that it brings. It's the latter part that people remember the most, but to get there you really need the former too.

The T:ToN vision document, on the other hand, stresses things like "deep, personal themes", "epic narrative", "mystery" and how companions will be "nontraditional, complex and believable". It does also say that the game will be "irreverent and entertaining", but looking at the document as a whole, it's a lot more low-key and serious, isn't it? Of course, InXile couldn't possibly say the sort of things that the PS:T vision statement has in it even if they wanted to or they'd invite the wrath of an army of angry Kotaku feminists, so it might just be that too, and I don't think that it's even particularly important for T:ToN to match PS:T exactly in terms of style. I do look forward to finding out, though, whether the emphasis on emulating the, hm, serious and even "high-brow" elements of PS:T that you see in the T:ToN vision document will result in a different type of aesthetic and ambience in the end.
 

hiver

Guest
You are correct. It is so since T:ToN subscribes more directly to those specific themes just because it is a continuation and an extension of PST. Its not rocket science, really.
 

AN4RCHID

Arcane
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
4,729
I think a lot of people overlook that Torment is, in many ways, a flamboyant and occasionally very funny game. Of course, those qualities intertwine with the serious elements of the narrative, which gives the game a very distinctive tragicomic vibe, but the weirdness of it all is really one of those things that makes the game memorable, and I think a lot of that comes across in the vision document's "SO AWESOME!" attitude and fixation with ego-stroking. You could say that the PS:T starts with what is in many ways a wish-fulfillment premise and then dresses it down by examining all the problems that it brings. It's the latter part that people remember the most, but to get there you really need the former too.

The T:ToN vision document, on the other hand, stresses things like "deep, personal themes", "epic narrative", "mystery" and how companions will be "nontraditional, complex and believable". It does also say that the game will be "irreverent and entertaining", but looking at the document as a whole, it's a lot more low-key and serious, isn't it? Of course, InXile couldn't possibly say the sort of things that the PS:T vision statement has in it even if they wanted to or they'd invite the wrath of an army of angry Kotaku feminists, so it might just be that too, and I don't think that it's even particularly important for T:ToN to match PS:T exactly in terms of style. I do look forward to finding out, though, whether the emphasis on emulating the, hm, serious and even "high-brow" elements of PS:T that you see in the T:ToN vision document will result in a different type of aesthetic and ambience in the end.
Great points. What strikes me about the comparison is that both vision docs seem to really embody the creative leads. You have Chris Avellone who is a total bro and a little goofy, then on the other hand you have Colin McComb who, if the pitch video is anything to go by, is a hyper-serious, no bullshit kind of guy. Avellone put so much personality into P:T, I just hope T:ToN does the same even if that means being totally different stylistically.

I think it will be interesting to see a game that's being largely created by game industry outsiders. A lot of the designers are non-game related authors, Adam Heine has been raising orphans for the last decade, Kevin Saunders was working on industrial sims or whatever. Should make for a suitably unusual game.
 

Septaryeth

Augur
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
298
There will be fiendish babes, human babes, angelic babes, asian babes and even undead babes.

Are they implying that Asians aren't human?

No. Asians are still humans, but Asian babes transcend beyond human babes, humans and other Asians.
They can have the face of a twelve-year-old AND breasts comparable to that of a pregnant woman.
Even little girls can acutally be a some thousand-year-old witches in disguise. Or maybe they are actually men that were transformed into women.
And...
:hmmm:
You know what? Go watch some anime.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Great points. What strikes me about the comparison is that both vision docs seem to really embody the creative leads. You have Chris Avellone who is a total bro and a little goofy, then on the other hand you have Colin McComb who, if the pitch video is anything to go by, is a hyper-serious, no bullshit kind of guy.
Haha, that's pretty funny. He really isn't. The pitch video is just a tone he needed to hit for what we were trying to accomplish. MCA and Colin are both funny, light-hearted guys, tho it's probably true MCA is a bit more dudebro and goofy (I still haven't met Colin so my impression here is just from years of talking to him over email)

I think it will be interesting to see a game that's being largely created by game industry outsiders. A lot of the designers are non-game related authors, Adam Heine has been raising orphans for the last decade, Kevin Saunders was working on industrial sims or whatever. Should make for a suitably unusual game.

Heh, it is fun: sometimes, when talking design elements with Adam you can kind of tell he missed a decade+ of decline and he's all like "of course that's how we'll do things, that's how it's done", blissfully unaware that the game industry has been gutting a lot of this stuff. Its kind of a joy.

Also what you say is true for the writing team more so than the design team, especially once the WL2 guys roll in. When it comes to the writing team I think one tricky thing is for outsiders to realize how different the levels of involvement are. Colin is the core guy, obviously. Tony Evans and Adam Heine are both very involved from early on. Nathan Long wrote the most for Wasteland 2 (and I hope he gets due credit for that) and will no doubt write a ton for Torment. A lot of the others are really more limited in availability and scope and roll in later (like me, possibly). So "writer" is not necessarily always the same thing.
 

AstroZombie

Arcane
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Messages
1,041
Location
bananolândia
Divinity: Original Sin
Great points. What strikes me about the comparison is that both vision docs seem to really embody the creative leads. You have Chris Avellone who is a total bro and a little goofy, then on the other hand you have Colin McComb who, if the pitch video is anything to go by, is a hyper-serious, no bullshit kind of guy.
Haha, that's pretty funny. He really isn't. The pitch video is just a tone he needed to hit for what we were trying to accomplish. MCA and Colin are both funny, light-hearted guys, tho it's true MCA is a bit more dudebro and goofy (I still haven't met Colin so my impression here is just from years of talking to him over email)

I think it will be interesting to see a game that's being largely created by game industry outsiders. A lot of the designers are non-game related authors, Adam Heine has been raising orphans for the last decade, Kevin Saunders was working on industrial sims or whatever. Should make for a suitably unusual game.

Heh, it is fun: sometimes, when talking design elements with Adam you can kind of tell he missed a decade+ of decline and he's all like "of course that's how we'll do things, that's how it's done", blissfully unaware that the game industry has been gutting a lot of this stuff. Its kind of a joy.

Also what you say is true for the writing team more so than the design team, especially once the WL2 guys roll in. When it comes to the writing team I think one tricky thing is for outsiders to realize how different the levels of involvement are. Colin is the core guy, obviously. Tony Evans and Adam Heine are both very involved from early on. Nathan Long wrote most of Wasteland 2 (and I hope he gets due credit for that) and will no doubt write a ton for Torment. A lot of the others are really more limited in availability and scope and roll in later (like me, possibly). So "writer" is not necessarily always the same thing.

Good. Try to keep him untainted, if possible.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Heh, it is fun: sometimes, when talking design elements with Adam you can kind of tell he missed a decade+ of decline and he's all like "of course that's how we'll do things, that's how it's done", blissfully unaware that the game industry has been gutting a lot of this stuff. Its kind of a joy.
So all I had to do was run an orphanage in Thailand, and I could have missed it all too.

Also what you say is true for the writing team more so than the design team, especially once the WL2 guys roll in. When it comes to the writing team I think one tricky thing is for outsiders to realize how different the levels of involvement are. Colin is the core guy, obviously. Tony Evans and Adam Heine are both very involved from early on. Nathan Long wrote most of Wasteland 2 (and I hope he gets due credit for that) and will no doubt write a ton for Torment. A lot of the others are really more limited in availability and scope and roll in later (like me, possibly). So "writer" is not necessarily always the same thing.
Nathan Long gave the most (well really, only) interesting interview at the Torment party. I wouldn't mind a developer diary or something like that from him, wink wink nudge nudge.
 

AN4RCHID

Arcane
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
4,729
Also what you say is true for the writing team more so than the design team, especially once the WL2 guys roll in. When it comes to the writing team I think one tricky thing is for outsiders to realize how different the levels of involvement are. Colin is the core guy, obviously. Tony Evans and Adam Heine are both very involved from early on. Nathan Long wrote most of Wasteland 2 (and I hope he gets due credit for that) and will no doubt write a ton for Torment. A lot of the others are really more limited in availability and scope and roll in later (like me, possibly). So "writer" is not necessarily always the same thing.

I see. I was under the impression that writer and designer were basically synonymous on this project. So folks like Pat Rothfuss and George Zeits are not doing area and quest design? Or will they come up with rough concepts, and then a level designer implements them in the editor?
 

hiver

Guest
I would say that George will have a bit more work then Rothfuss. yknow?
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
I see. I was under the impression that writer and designer were basically synonymous on this project. So folks like Pat Rothfuss and George Zeits are not doing area and quest design? Or will they come up with rough concepts, and then a level designer implements them in the editor?

Writer and designer aren't the same thing, no, but a lot of people do both, like Adam and probably George. Inexperienced people like Pat will probably do more writing and conceptualizing than level or systems design, yeah. Whatever makes the most sense, good production is always about maximizing the skills people do have, rather than stumbling over the skills they don't.
 

CMcC

Larian Studios
Developer
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
156
Location
Deeeeeeeetroit.
Great points. What strikes me about the comparison is that both vision docs seem to really embody the creative leads. You have Chris Avellone who is a total bro and a little goofy, then on the other hand you have Colin McComb who, if the pitch video is anything to go by, is a hyper-serious, no bullshit kind of guy. Avellone put so much personality into P:T, I just hope T:ToN does the same even if that means being totally different stylistically.

I think it will be interesting to see a game that's being largely created by game industry outsiders. A lot of the designers are non-game related authors, Adam Heine has been raising orphans for the last decade, Kevin Saunders was working on industrial sims or whatever. Should make for a suitably unusual game.


Don't listen to Brother None. I am 100% serious and take no shit from anyone.

My kids hate me.
 

ksaun

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
111
Location
Beyond Beyond the Beyond
Great points. What strikes me about the comparison is that both vision docs seem to really embody the creative leads. You have Chris Avellone who is a total bro and a little goofy, then on the other hand you have Colin McComb who, if the pitch video is anything to go by, is a hyper-serious, no bullshit kind of guy. Avellone put so much personality into P:T, I just hope T:ToN does the same even if that means being totally different stylistically.

I think it will be interesting to see a game that's being largely created by game industry outsiders. A lot of the designers are non-game related authors, Adam Heine has been raising orphans for the last decade, Kevin Saunders was working on industrial sims or whatever. Should make for a suitably unusual game.


Don't listen to Brother None. I am 100% serious and take no shit from anyone.

My kids hate me.


It's true. I hadn't before seen a child's eyes gleam with such intense loathing.
(What is an industrial sim? =) I have worked on a couple "whatevers" though.)
 

AN4RCHID

Arcane
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
4,729
Great points. What strikes me about the comparison is that both vision docs seem to really embody the creative leads. You have Chris Avellone who is a total bro and a little goofy, then on the other hand you have Colin McComb who, if the pitch video is anything to go by, is a hyper-serious, no bullshit kind of guy. Avellone put so much personality into P:T, I just hope T:ToN does the same even if that means being totally different stylistically.

I think it will be interesting to see a game that's being largely created by game industry outsiders. A lot of the designers are non-game related authors, Adam Heine has been raising orphans for the last decade, Kevin Saunders was working on industrial sims or whatever. Should make for a suitably unusual game.


Don't listen to Brother None. I am 100% serious and take no shit from anyone.

My kids hate me.


It's true. I hadn't before seen a child's eyes gleam with such intense loathing.
(What is an industrial sim? =) I have worked on a couple "whatevers" though.)

Haha, okay I will take you guys word on this stuff. Kevin, I thought you said in an interview you worked on "serious games" before Torment? I assumed training sims of some kind.
 

ksaun

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
111
Location
Beyond Beyond the Beyond
Great points. What strikes me about the comparison is that both vision docs seem to really embody the creative leads. You have Chris Avellone who is a total bro and a little goofy, then on the other hand you have Colin McComb who, if the pitch video is anything to go by, is a hyper-serious, no bullshit kind of guy. Avellone put so much personality into P:T, I just hope T:ToN does the same even if that means being totally different stylistically.

I think it will be interesting to see a game that's being largely created by game industry outsiders. A lot of the designers are non-game related authors, Adam Heine has been raising orphans for the last decade, Kevin Saunders was working on industrial sims or whatever. Should make for a suitably unusual game.


Don't listen to Brother None. I am 100% serious and take no shit from anyone.

My kids hate me.


It's true. I hadn't before seen a child's eyes gleam with such intense loathing.
(What is an industrial sim? =) I have worked on a couple "whatevers" though.)

Haha, okay I will take you guys word on this stuff. Kevin, I thought you said in an interview you worked on "serious games" before Torment? I assumed training sims of some kind.


(Yes, that's right -- for about three years before I came to inXile, I worked on serious games for a company called Alelo. They specialize in instructional social simulation -- basically conversations using speech recognition to aid people in learning foreign language and culture. For example, games/software to teach troops deployed in Afghanistan or Iraq how to interact with the local population. Some of my projects there were quite game/RPG-like, others less so.)
 

AN4RCHID

Arcane
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
4,729
:salute:

Just so you know, I now expect some intense conversation sim mechanics in Torment.
 

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